Jack Axaopoulos Defends Free Speech of Army Ranger?

[Free]

Army Ranger beaten by First Ammendment police

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/11/video-oakland-police-strike-army-ranger-with-nightsticks-on-his-back-ribs-shoulders-and-hands-lacerating-his-spleen-and-causing-internal-bleeding.html


http://www.ktvu.com/videos/news/oakland-another-iraq-war-veteran-injured/vD5pb/

Irony of Jack Axaopoulos
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22339&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=80

[Bob Kuczewski]

I didn't watch any of the videos (yet), but I think I agree with Jack's position that the police shouldn't start with the last resort before trying more reasonable approaches.

Of course, this is all terribly ironic given that Jack lied to get me dumped out of both hanggliding.org and the HGAA without due process ... and I'm a former Army Ranger.   

[miguel]

Here is another way of looking at the problem.

Imagine the forum as a neighborhood bar. You walk in, you are free to talk to whomever about whatever.
Become annoying, people will avoid you. Persist and you will be asked to desist. Keep on and you will get the bum's rush out the door with some added violence. you can cry discrimination or whatever but the bar owner can and will throw you out if you persist in being annoying. The definition of annoying is up to the bar owner, not to the one being annoying.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Hi Miguel,

I appreciate your perspective. But can I ask if you've really looked into either banning? I think you'll be surprised if you do.

Also, I support private property rights, and your bar analogy is fine with me. But the consequence of that viewpoint is that there is no place on the internet where uncensored information about the sport of hang gliding can be widely disseminated. Jack (and to a lesser extent, Davis) virtually control what people in this sport are allowed to know. USHPA (which is supposed to be an association of us members) isn't much better (and may be worse).

That's why I'd like to build up the US Hawks so people can get a more well-rounded view of what's happening in this sport. I really appreciate your posting here, and anything you can do to let people know about this forum is very welcome.

Thanks!

Bob Kuczewski

[Bob Kuczewski]

By the way, in case new people don't know the story, I'll briefly describe how I got banned from hanggliding.org.

At that time the HGAA (which I started) was being taken over by Jack Axaopoulos because he controlled the web site that he supposedly "donated" to the HGAA (never let Jack Axaopoulos donate anything that gives him control). I was critical of Jack's takeover, and there were at least two active topics where I was posting my comments on hanggliding.org.

I posted a critical comment in one of those topics, and then I saw another critical post by Ryan Voight in another topic. So I joined Ryan's post with my one line response: "Just like the SGAA forum". That's all I wrote.

Later, Jack came along and saw my first post and he issued me a warning. He wrote:

This is your final warning. Take another pot shot at me, no matter how slight, and youre gone.

I saw his warning and I heeded it. I didn't say another word.

But later Jack saw the "SGAA" quote and didn't bother to check the time stamps. He ASSumed it was posted after his warning and so he banned me right then. He then posted his explanation for the ban using an incorrect order of events as follows:

Jack wrote: "This is your final warning. Take another pot shot at me, no matter how slight, and youre gone."
Bob wrote: "Just like the SGAA forum."
Jack wrote: "=== BANNED ==="

But that's not how it happened, and I pointed out Jack's mistake in the time line. He knew I was right because he actually corrected his banning post by rewriting it to cover the evidence of his mistake. But he didn't reverse the ban because his bigger agenda was to silence me. The fact that he rewrote his own post where he banned me was the smoking gun. That's where it went from a simple mistake to a concious attempt to deceive.

Miguel, it's easy for people to make mistakes. We all do it. But when you make a mistake, you've got a choice between coming clean (admitting it) or covering it up. Jack chose to cover it up, and that means that we (hang glider pilots) can't trust what we read on hanggliding.org.

One more point. Jack has not only banned me, but he's warned everyone that they're not allowed to even mention my name or the US Hawks web site on his forum. He's actually changed people's signature lines to remove their references to the US Hawks. Now the US Hawks isn't front page news every day for everybody, but it IS something that's happening in the sport of hang gliding. For Jack to actively suppress that information should be setting off alarms in people's minds. And it probably would for many people ... if they knew about it. But of course, Jack has done everything he can to be sure that people don't know about it. He controls what people are allowed to know and think in the sport of hang gliding. That's a big problem.

Sorry for the double post.

Bob Kuczewski

[Bob Kuczewski]

And if all that weren't enough ... here's a quote from the "HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies":

Please treat the admin as a regular user. As long as you follow the rules, there is NO CHANCE you will banned because you disagree with the admin.

I got banned for saying this:

"Just like the SGAA forum."

Can you honestly tell me that a comment like that is at all unusual in heated topics on hanggliding.org? If I'd made a comment like that about anybody else, it wouldn't have even raised Jack's eyebrows. But because I was critical of him ... boom, I was banned!!

So the "Rules and Policies" on Jack's site aren't worth the bits and bytes they're made of. The people who participate in this great sport deserve far better than that. That's what I'm hoping we can do on US Hawks!!   

[miguel]

That rivals one of Tad's posts.

I think you got banned because of the HGAA conundrum. From my viewpoint, it played out like cliques in jr high, instead of adults working towards a common goal. Each of the parties think that other parties are greatly at fault and that is putting it mildly.

Remember as a kid, the kid who brought the ball and bat made the game rules. He got 5 strikes while everyone else got 3. The same goes for hang gliding forums. I got kicked off the odd retort when it was just a mailing list.

[Bob Kuczewski]

That rivals one of Tad's posts.

Check the word count. It's not even close!!   

I think you got banned because of the HGAA conundrum.

Absolutely correct. Jack Axaopoulos had already locked down the HGAA so he could force out Scott Wise (aka "WingSpan") as Chairman. Jack was in the wrong and he knew it. That's why he was so super-sensitive about an otherwise acceptable comment like "the SGAA".

But there's another aspect of this that's more chilling. Imagine if Jack started a similar jihad against Moyes or WillsWing or Northwing or a new startup manufacturer. Imagine that he threatened to ban anyone who even mentioned those names or their gliders. How would that serve the hang gliding community?

Of course, if it were Moyes or Wills, then he probably wouldn't get away with it - because they're so big. But with Northwing or another startup, he just might be able to keep a lid on it and maybe even drive them out of business. That's a lot of power for a guy who's clearly demonstrated that he doesn't mind using it in exactly that same way with regard to the US Hawks.

From my viewpoint, it played out like cliques in jr high, instead of adults working towards a common goal. Each of the parties think that other parties are greatly at fault and that is putting it mildly.

Many of us tried to work toward a common goal in the HGAA. That's why I started it. It was Jack who locked down the entire HGAA forum when Scott Wise dismissed John Borton as his Vice-Chairman. What gave Jack the authority to do that? He was just the IT guy running the forum. Jack wasn't in any elected office, yet he decided to use his control over the forum to oust Scott who had been unanimously elected by the members.

Remember as a kid, the kid who brought the ball and bat made the game rules. He got 5 strikes while everyone else got 3. The same goes for hang gliding forums. I got kicked off the odd retort when it was just a mailing list.

If it were 5 strikes instead of 3 strikes, then I might have let it slide. But Jack gets infinite strikes and his opponents don't even get a chance to bat.

Some people will certainly disagree with this statement, but the US Hawks is currently the best alternative to USHPA that's out there. That may not be BIG news, but it's certainly important enough to deserve a topic of discussion on hanggliding.org. Go ahead and try to start such a topic and see what happens to you. That exercise will show that these forums are not just two sides of the same coin. Jack uses his monopoly to crush anyone he doesn't like, and I've never done that on US Hawks.