payout

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Re: payout

Postby Bill Cummings » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:06 am

I haven't heard anything lately. Last I heard his son had posted that he was coming along fine but if he will fly again wasn't known at that time.
I do appreciate the youtube video not being taken down. I think the winch/reel operator got a lot of unjustified bad press.
Jonathan D. had some bad press and he took down some videos that were very good at getting out the word about situations to look out for. Usually from a bunch of Holier than Thou pilots that have never made a mistake in their entire lives and have aways had perfect flights and landings. :evil:
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Re: payout

Postby MikeLake » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:30 pm

I would have reduced the tension at about 0:45.
Look at the winch-man's gaze it is fixed on something other than the glider.
At about 0:46 his head turns away and then does not move, it doesn’t follow the glider and
there is no reaction until the glider actually crashes.
This is a learning thing not a blame thing but you guys are being too kind.
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Re: payout

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:55 pm

MikeLake wrote:Look at the winch-man's gaze it is fixed on something other than the glider.


I felt the same way looking at the video. It looked as if he wasn't watching. But that's so hard to believe, and that's where the "fish eye" perspective might be playing tricks on us. I say that because if he were looking at something else, then I would have expected to see more shock when he did finally catch a glimpse of the glider's position and attitude. But I didn't see any visible signs of surprise, so I'm suspecting that his eyes really were locked onto the glider throughout the tow.

But then it's hard to speculate because different people can respond so differently to traumatic events.
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Re: payout

Postby Bill Cummings » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:32 pm

Thanks for your input on the Buxton accident Mike. Only through brainstorming a problem with more heads than just one will the best possible answer to a problem be reached.

My, “holier than thou,” statement was directed at the -- well--the --holier than thou pilots on other websites about videos by Jonathan D.

One video in particular was showing a poor hang check resulting in a lower cocoon line on the wrong side of the leg and the resulting trouble in flight.
The condescending statements were unproductive and actually ended up with us loosing a learning video.

I hope you didn’t go away with the impression that I had lumped you in with that group.

Hopefully other experienced tow pilots will consider both our opinions along with the video and be able to contribute in a way that might have mitigated the pounding the Bob B. received.
Perhaps something that no one so far has touched on to this point.

When things go bad while towing its best to have hashed everything out ahead of time so that one can get past the brain freeze and move quickly to the next best option.

Things like what if ran off a ramp unhooked? What is my next best course of action?

I’m wondering if I were in Bob B’s situation should I be in the mind set that I can’t rely on the tow vehicle to help things on my end? Or at least not count on the tow vehicle doing the right thing and yet being thankful if they did?
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Re: payout

Postby MikeLake » Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:21 am

“Thanks for your input on the Buxton accident Mike. Only through brainstorming a problem with more heads than just one will the best possible answer to a problem be reached”.

Absolutely.
I also see no problem in speculating, not a dirty word in my book.
The goal for everyone should be to try to prevent a reoccurrence and not put any accident down to an ‘occupational hazard’.
If the wrong conclusions are drawn but never the less conclusions that might prevent a similar accident then that goal has been achieved.

”My, “holier than thou,” statement was directed at the -- well--the --holier than thou pilots on other websites about videos by Jonathan D.”…..
…I hope you didn’t go away with the impression that I had lumped you in with that group.

I didn’t take offence as I was sure none was intended. In any case, being English, it wouldn’t have warranted a ‘mild tut’.

”I’m wondering if I were in Bob B’s situation should I be in the mind set that I can’t rely on the tow vehicle to help things on my end? Or at least not count on the tow vehicle doing the right thing and yet being thankful if they did?”

The pilot has little choice, he (mostly) has control over the glider with the winch-man having control over the thrust, this is a team event the only difference being that the pilot has zero responsibility for the winch-man but the winch-man has a great deal of responsibility for the pilot.

You must rely on the winch-man in certain situations, just like you rely on your bus driver to brake or swerve when necessary. This is achieved with training and I am sure I read somewhere that the winch-man, in this case, had little experience.
I don’t mean to be too hard on the winch-man especially if the latter is true.

From the pilots perspective a low level lockout is almost a lose lose situation prevention being the only solution. Once past the point of no return it is a stark fact that survivability is down to luck and/or altitude.

The pilot has the one handed control situation to deal with if he chooses to attempt to release, followed by possibly an even more radical situation to deal with should he actually manage a release. (Note: a release is deemed undesirable but a weak-link failure ok despite the fact that in the case of the former at least it would have been the pilot’s choice. Also note how the weak-link offered no defence against the pilot getting into a radical situation in the first place.)
The winch-man could be the pilot’s only hope. His job should be to watch the glider like a hawk and ease up at the first sign of trouble. Note ‘ease up’ the tension and not kill it.

Going back to the video whatever the winch-man was looking at his reactions were not quick enough. I think tension could have been eased earlier (if it was eased at all) along with the call to stop.
Having said that I find it very hard to believe he was watching the glider all the way to the ground maintaining such a stonewall stance, almost to the point where the glider bounced.
Unless of course he did freeze then we are back to the training thing.

Apologies for any egg sucking tuition given and mild dyslexia.
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Re: payout

Postby Bill Cummings » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:04 am

Mike quote
“----The winch-man could be the pilot’s only hope. His job should be to watch the glider like a hawk and ease up at the first sign of trouble. Note ‘ease up’ the tension and not kill it. ---”

BC response:
Good suggestion Mike, about the, “---Note ‘ease up’ the tension and not kill it. ---”

I had been watching for the winch to either be under load after the crash or back lashing due to freewheeling the winch/reel. I forgot to include my findings in my previous posts.
While the truck was braking to a stop I could see some slack in the towline a time or two, right in the truck box area, and I remember now about gnashing my teeth when seeing the total slack and waiting for a winch lock up with a snag due to the slack. Fortunately it did not lock up the winch/reel.

A lock up due to A back lashing snag would have added to the problem moving a pilot that should be immobilized due to a possible spinal injury.
I would expect the weaklink would brake if the winch snagged and froze up before the tow truck came to a stop. But----
Depending where the weaklink was installed the crash might have snagged the towline beyond the weaklink dragging the glider and not breaking the weaklink.
Good reason to not totally kill the line tension just like you said.

Mike you just proved one of my points about the benefit of brainstorming a problem. You mentioned the, “Note ‘ease up’ the tension and not kill it. ---”
--when I forgot to put it in my posts. It is an important consideration for platform pilots that hadn’t thought of that problem before.
Thanks Mike, for catching that and posting it.
I let it get away. :oops:

Mike quote “---Apologies for any egg sucking tuition given and mild dyslexia.”

BC response--
I compose all my posts in Microsoft Works Word Processor first and still it comes out looking like it does.
When I walked across the stage to get my high school diploma all my English teachers broke out in tears, went to the bar later and got drunk toasting each others efforts of scarcely getting rid of me. :shh:
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Re: payout

Postby SamKellner » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:13 pm

MikeLake wrote:Look at the winch-man's gaze it is fixed on something other than the glider..


If the "lens theory" is incorrect, and the tow tech was not watching the glider, he might possibly have been watching a tension pressure gauge.

"His gaze is fixed on something". I don't recall seeing that part of the winch in the video. Bill, does the video show that?

to gauge or not to gauge? :shifty: :shifty:
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Re: payout

Postby Bill Cummings » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:18 am

SamKellner wrote:
MikeLake wrote:Look at the winch-man's gaze it is fixed on something other than the glider..


If the "lens theory" is incorrect, and the tow tech was not watching the glider, he might possibly have been watching a tension pressure gauge.

"His gaze is fixed on something". I don't recall seeing that part of the winch in the video. Bill, does the video show that?

to gauge or not to gauge? :shifty: :shifty:

Yes Sam, I see the pressure gage under the winch/reel operator’s left thumb at about 16 seconds until about 21 seconds into the video. Below his hand you can see the black cap on the hydraulic reservoir for the master cylinder. At second 21 I can see the pressure twist type adjusting knob which is the closest thing to his body just before he sits down.
From the audio I get that the brake pressure will be set at 80 and as soon as Bob B. launches he will then give Bob his desired towing brake pressure. I don’t know if 80 is calibrated line tension or hyd., brake pressure.

At 2:07 to 2:12 at the slow motion part of the video you can see the towline with enough slack in it to actually jump out of the pulley and back into the pulley at 2:12.
There should be more tension on the so called freewheeling winch to not allow that much slack line jumping around all over the place looking for a place to snag. Once snagged it would then be in static tow mode trying to drag the glider.
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Re: payout

Postby Bill Cummings » Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:08 pm

See Mike? I spelled gauge wrong as gage and I know better. Sometimes I can’t remember If the word, "before," has an e at the end or not. I’m sure that I hold the highest score for dyslexia for anyone posting on the Hawks ---so there--Nanny Nanny Boo!
PS Now spell checker on this site has a red wavy line under gauge. What is a guy suppose to do? :roll:
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Re: payout

Postby SamKellner » Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Great work Bill :thumbup: :clap: In Bill's case, CSI means, Crash Scene Investigator :lolno:

Well then, the operator don't seem to be fixated on the gage/gauge. :|

So, does that substantiate the "lens theory"? :eh:
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