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Re: Jack Axaopoulos (sg) changes another post on hanggliding

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:46 am

Human beings have many dimensions to their personalities and their viewpoints. The press likes to focus on the political divisions of liberal or conservative (aka "left" and "right"). I'd like to consider a different set of dimensions:

  • Courage - Brave or Cowardly
  • Intentions - Good or Bad
  • Correctness - Right or Wrong

Of those three, which one matters the least? I say the last one because we are all capable of being wrong on any issue. I've been wrong on a number of things here over these years, and I've been grateful to my friends who've either helped me see my errors before they became disasters ... or forgave me after they did become disasters.   :oops:

I believe that a collection of courageous people with good intentions can sort through their differences of opinions to arrive at correctness. But there's no way to synthesize courage or good intentions if they're not there to begin with.

We've all been building the U.S. Hawks for 8 years now. We haven't agreed on everything, but I believe we are the best collection of human beings in the sport with regard to courage and intentions. I've personally met and spent time with most of our active members, and we don't hesitate to pick up the phone and call each other about anything whether It's a compliment or a criticism. We're not a "virtual" community. We're a real community and one that I am proud (and humbled) to belong to.

Warren, you are U.S. Hawk #6, and you've been with us since the first week of our existence. We might not agree on everything (the "correctness" of our beliefs), but I would never question your courage or your intentions. Your comments about Jack's crimes against hang gliding are right on target. You speak from first hand experience. Thanks.

Rick, I believe I've read - and appreciated - every one of your 3151 posts. You've been one of the many people who humble me with your depth of experience and your dedication to the sport of hang gliding. You kindly give your time and advice (pearls for sure) whenever I've called on you. Thanks very much.

The U.S. Hawks is not the majority of hang glider pilots, and maybe we never will be. But there's no group that I'd rather be associated with when it comes to courage and good intentions. Thanks to everyone who's spoken in opposition to Joe's mistreatment at hanggliding.org and thanks to everyone who has spoken in support of the Truth.   :salute:
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Re: Jack Axaopoulos (sg) changes another post on hanggliding

Postby Free » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:38 pm

So there are back channel phone conversations against my suggestions? Walk away and do nothing?
Walk away only works when you have a choice.
There is a walk away action going on now for Democrats to walk away from the radicalization of the party and that is a choice.
https://townhall.com/columnists/joyover ... s-n2499243

Walking away from censorship only enhances censorship.
What I suggest isn't pearls before swine and it isn't even particularly about Hawks.
Its about truth versus lies. Correcting the record and righting a wrong.

No phone calls necessary as you know about brain cancer from cell phones. I'm worried that you guys don't take that seriously.
No pearls wasted by pushing back against what is essentially oppression of free flow of information.
Walking away, when you have no choice in the matter is actually 'no choice' in that matter.
Joe didn't get a choice. I didn't get a choice. Bob didn't get a choice and so on down the line.
Push back is all there is, up to legal action. There is much censorship going on at much higher levels.
Resistance should start at all levels or the game is over, everywhere.
The pearls will survive in about any medium. Mud, slime and swine waste.
Rolling over to censorship is to drown in that medium.
Do we really want to let this crime against humanity go, unopposed? Unchallenged?
Gee, I hope not.
I'm willing to let you guys help keep it classy, as much as possible.
I can defer to a higher plane of approach. That's what I'm trying to do here.
Doing nothing rubs me the wrong way.
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Re: Jack Axaopoulos (sg) changes another post on hanggliding

Postby Rick Masters » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:29 pm

Warren, when I suggest people walk away - turn away - from the USHPA and its doppleganger sites, I am encouraging them to form a new national recreational hang gliding organization founded on state recreational liability law.

    My belief and experience suggests that when you confront directly a powerful and broadly established monopoly, it is like running into a brick wall.
    It doesn't really matter that you are justified in your opposition.
    You are running into their brick wall and you will fail.
    Failure may be noble. But it is not effective.

    USHPA and their doppleganger sites will laugh as you confront them. It is the mouse against the elephant. They know they are winning.
    The path to victory is to walk away. Not to walk away to aimlessness, but to walk away and form an alternative.
    Ignore them. Ignore them as if they don't exist. Ignore them as if they have no power over you.
    They don't, you know. Their power comes not from government or law or even common sense, but only from those who feed them with money or protest.
    They control those who choose to enrich them. But likewise, when you confront them, they also control you because you have given yourself over to them.
    But if you walk away and take others with you - like a magnet - this scares the hell out of them. It is the worst thing that could ever happen to them.
    It undermines their rai·son d'ê·tre. It threatens their control, their power and even their existence.
    This is why they banned BobK. He started an alternative. He and his creation - the US Hawks - remain an existential threat.
    In our particular situation, the alternative is SO easy. They have no defense. They are wrong. Everything they have built is built on false assumptions.
    The only power they have is in fooling people into thinking they have power over them. But they don't. It's laughable.
    It will crumble overnight when the others also decide to walk away. They are thinking about it right now.

    We must continue building an EFFECTIVE alternative.
    Wasting our time banging our heads against their brick walls and embellishing narrow arguments against them will not defeat them nor bring us to where we need to be.
    It will defeat us. They want that. Because of this, your direction is a mistake. An out-flanking maneuver is required.
    Thankfully, the alternative will easily will defeat them. A new national organization devoted solely to recreational hang gliding will take shape.
    If we focus our energies towards that, rather than wasting our time screaming and crying like babies at the brick wall, we WILL win.
    Otherwise we only make ourselves subjects for their entertainment and derision.
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No. No. When they go low, we kick them

Postby Free » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:06 pm

When Frank Colver, pushed back and published for history, was he crying like a baby?
That seems to be your argument and I don't buy it.
If a tree falls into an internet black hole does it make a sound?
Not if Jack Axaopolous has his way.
A doppleganger, he is not. A giant elephant, he is not.
Has he really beaten us to a point that there is no use to push back?
They might laugh at us?
We've already walked away from USHPA. They left us. That corporate entity is corrupt.
If no one knows we're gone, who is going to follow?

Your idea to just roll over and play dead is pretty good idea if the point you are trying to make is that we are dead.
We aren't getting any younger and I'm not willing to play dead.
Two plus two is not adding up to four in your equation.
Why would people that never hear that you have walked away, follow?
Are you staying hydrated out there in the desert?
It takes a lot of water to keep me going.
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Re: Jack Axaopoulos (sg) changes another post on hanggliding

Postby Rick Masters » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:29 pm

Your idea to just roll over and play dead is pretty good idea if the point you are trying to make is that we are dead.

That's not what I said.
Two dozen guests and I are currently watching your efforts.
Good luck, but I am not holding my breath.
And I am not the problem.

Also, what Frank or others say in political discussion on the doppelganger sites can disappear at any time.
Technical stuff seems to be okay.
If you stick to that, you'll do fine.
Why anyone would post stuff the moderator doesn't like on the moderator's site is a mystery to me.
He holds all the cards. You hold none.

There are better places to stand.
The US Hawks forum is one.
Your argument seems to say that those who won't come to the Hawks forum can be persuaded at a doppelganger site.
I doubt that is the case and I doubt that it really matters.
After a while, people figure things out on their own.
Especially when they've been co-opted by a foreign group and had the wool pulled over their eyes.
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Re: Jack Axaopoulos (sg) changes another post on hanggliding

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:48 am

For what It's worth ... I think there is some value in reaching as many pilots as possible. Many won't care that Jack has banned one of tbe sport's founding pilots (Joe Faust). But others will care. Some won't care that Jack is changing people's posts. But others will care. We want to reach the ones who care.

Jack knows that some will care. That's why he had to bury it in the basement. That's why he had to lock the topic. That's why he had to obliterate all the links. Jack may try to play it down, but his own actions betray him. He cares very much about crushing any references to USHGRS and the U.S. Hawks. That's why he took those actions.
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Re: Jack Axaopoulos (sg) changes another post on hanggliding

Postby Free » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:31 pm

Rick Masters wrote:
Two dozen guests and I are currently watching your efforts.
Good luck, but I am not holding my breath.
And I am not the problem.

But you have a problem with what I suggest. That is now the current problem.
I'm not understanding the resistance.

Also, what Frank or others say in political discussion on the doppelganger sites can disappear at any time.

That was the original problem.
Technical stuff seems to be okay.
If you stick to that, you'll do fine.

What does that mean to people that have already been censored/banned?
How is that fine? What is there to stick to for those already kicked out?

Why anyone would post stuff the moderator doesn't like on the moderator's site is a mystery to me.

Well how else are we to know what the moderator doesn't like on any particular day?

He holds all the cards. You hold none.

We aren't playing cards. Why are you putting yourself in a box with your hands tied and a gag in your mouth.
What game is that? Jack Axaopopous' 'Loserville'?
What if we refuse to play that game?

There are better places to stand.
The US Hawks forum is one.

Here we are. Standing. Now what? Do nothing?
WE should let a crime go unpunished because we are a mouse to the the elephant Jack Axaopoplous?
We can't do anything because Jack won't give us cards out of his deck? Sheesh..
We have our own cards and it's time to play them.

Publicize the problem. Place blame and name the perpetrators.
That's not an impossible action.
Use the venue you have to attack the venue that's screwing you.

Your argument seems to say that those who won't come to the Hawks forum can be persuaded at a doppelganger site.
I doubt that is the case and I doubt that it really matters.
After a while, people figure things out on their own.
Especially when they've been co-opted by a foreign group and had the wool pulled over their eyes.


What you call doppelganger is a piss ant in the desert.
Jack Axaopolous is an opportunist that jumped in with a web site so he could capitalize on clicks.
He doesn't care about hang gliding. It's all about revenue.
He is committing a crime against hang glider pilots and he wants to cover it up to hide the crime.
Are you wanting to help him accomplish that and let him get away with what he has done .. or what?
I don't understand the resistance to call him out.
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Re: Jack Axaopoulos (sg) changes another post on hanggliding

Postby Free » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:44 pm

Bob Kuczewski wrote: That's why he had to bury it in the basement. That's why he had to lock the topic. That's why he had to obliterate all the links. Jack may try to play it down, but his own actions betray him. He cares very much about crushing any references to USHGRS and the U.S. Hawks. That's why he took those actions.


He committed a crime against all hang glider pilots.
The cover up is proof of the crime.
I saw a page and a half that he completely obliterated from Joe Faust's thread before it was altered and blocked.
I'd like to see a wayback machine to get those posts.
Doug Marley goes completely bezerk and actually threatens Joe Faust.
Doug Marley, a member in good standing at Jack's little doppelganger..
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Re: Jack Axaopoulos (sg) changes another post on hanggliding

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:54 pm

There are two schools of thought on solving the problems:

    1) Work to fix the current corrupt infrastructure.
    2) Scrap the current infrastructure and start over.

I say we can do both. Different people are motivated by different challenges. I think everyone should pick the challenge they want to work on ... and then do so.

Personally, I don't have a crystal ball to tell me which path is shorter so I try do both. But posting about either isn't a tremendous effort, so I tend to post about both approaches.

The key thing is to be active one way or another. See something ... say something.
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Re: Jack Axaopoulos (sg) changes another post on hanggliding

Postby Rick Masters » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:01 pm

You guys who post on the USHPA doppelganger sites - it's your problem.
Not mine. I post here. This is the alternative. This is the opposition.
We are either starting over or not starting over.
You can't do both at the same time.
Walk away.
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