[Frank Colver]

I totally agree with Rick's above statement.

It is my opinion that the "Wall of Shame" posting, by Bob, may have done irreparable harm to my "behind the scenes" efforts to get Joe back into HG.org. I won't say more because of communications I want to remain confidential.

The irony here may turn out to be that Bob was the biggest obstacle to getting Joe back in.

Joe's great creation of the USHGRS, National HG ratings registry, had absolutely nothing to do with Bob, but it is hard to convince others of that true fact when they see the "Wall of Shame" postings. It may have been a "poison pill", (my personal feelings, hope I'm wrong) to my efforts.

Wish you had talked to me first, Bob, I would have said: BUTT OUT!

Damn!

Frank

[Bob Kuczewski]

I Wish you had talked to me first, Bob, I would have said: BUTT OUT!

If you want to coordinate efforts, then let me know. I can read email, and I can read PMs, but I can't read your mind. If you're doing something "behind the scenes" that depends on what I do (or don't do), then it falls on your shoulders to let me know about it.

Having said that, please explain why anything that I write about anything should have any bearing at all on whether Joe is banned or not from hanggliding.org. Do I have some magical ability to say things that can get other people banned from other sites? And if so, what does that say about those other sites?

[magentabluesky]

Bob, listen to your friends. After all, they are your friends.

Focus on the positve goals of the US Hawks.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Building a "Wall of Shame" is the last thing we need.

Some say that paragliding bashing is the last thing we need.

I am a member of this forum just like the rest of you. I have the same rights to post my concerns and criticisms as the rest of you.

What I saw done to Joe Faust is inexcusable and I am posting about it. I wish more people would do exactly that. All it takes for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Bob, listen to your friends. After all, they are your friends.

Focus on the positve goals of the US Hawks.

The U.S. Hawks is many people and we can be of many opinions as evidenced in this topic. It's my opinion that what's been done to Joe Faust deserves to be fully documented so there is no question as to what happened and who allowed it to happen. Neither you nor Frank nor Red* have stood firmly against this. Frank did make a few complaints and then Jack backed him down. That's the strategy of all tyrants - make a few examples (like Joe) threaten a few others (like Frank) and wait for it to blow over (as it too often does).

Results matter. If any of you can reverse this using some other means, then don't pretend that I'm stopping you because I'm not. If any of you get results by some other means, then I'm willing to recognize your efforts. But Joe has been banned for a few months now and I've seen no results from anything that anyone else has done.

* Moderator's Note: This post had contained the phrase: "Neither you nor Frank nor Rick have stood firmly against this", however, the intended phrase (now changed) was "Neither you nor Frank nor Red have stood firmly against this". This correction is supported by the context that Rick was never included among those posting on hanggliding.org who might have spoken up. See Bob's public apology to Rick on January 27th, 2019.

[Rick Masters]

Aside from Frank's comment, I think my point is akin to what you might think if I posted each entry on "Dangerous Sports News" as a separate topic.
The forum would be overwhelmed.
After a while, you'd probably get tired of reading about people getting bashed by paragliders.
But you have a point. Of course we have a right to speak our minds. Of course we should defend Joe.
Even though my complaining about paragliding sucking away thousands and killing hundreds of potential hang glider pilots is probably no more likely to stop paragliding than your complaining about Jack's misguided policy at HG.org is likely to stop his mistreatment of Joe Faust, I feel obligated to do it - just as you do.
And I respect you for it.
I got kicked off Paragliding Forum by complaining about too many people getting bashed by paragliders.
Then Joe himself got kicked off after he came to my defense.
Then I got kicked off OzReport for complaining about people getting bashed by paragliders.
I don't know what happened to Joe over there because the forum went deservedly dark - password required - after that.
Then Mark Forbes, who I consider the USHPA, told me to shut up about it.
I did, for a while. But I came back after around 550 more soaring parachutists got killed.
The promotion of paragliding appears to me to be a mistake
So yeah, some people think paragliding bashing is the last thing we need.
I'm one of them.
But to paint me as someone who hasn't come to Joe's defense is not really appropriate.
If you want HG.org to be your hill to die on, fine.
I don't post there. I don't respect people who accept that level of censorship.
I post here, on US Hawks, where there is some potential for hang gliding to regain a foothold.
I find it distasteful to keep mentioning the other forums that have contributed to the demise of my sport.
When I don't feel a need to do that any more, I am going to be very happy.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Of course we should defend Joe.

That's what this topic is about. Thanks.

Rick, you've been banned from a number of forums for speaking up.   Do you regret speaking up and being banned, or are you proud to have spoken up despite the threats and bannings?

Also, have you been banned from hanggliding.org? I'm sorry but I don't remember.

Thanks in advance.

[Rick Masters]

Bob, if you are right and they are wrong, and they ban you for speaking out, they become irrelevant, not you.
I speak out here, on US Hawks, where I have no concern of being silenced.
If others choose to have some nanny on the doppelganger forums do their thinking for them, it's their problem, not mine.
If they don't think too hard, they'll be fine little boys and girls.

Why I don't post on lesser forums is no mystery to me.
I don't need another feather in my cap.
The mystery is why others do.
Frank might say it's outreach.
You might say it's justice.
I just post here.

The US Hawks Forum works.
Everything I've posted here shows up on the search engines.
Not so much from old posts on the nanny doppelganger sites. Here. Now. On US Hawks!
No one has succeeded in shutting me up by banning me.
It doesn't work that way. I'm all over the place.
Search: rick masters gliding
The US Hawks is the only place that matters.
It is the only place where your true words stay on the Net.
Others might figure this out but I'm not holding my breath.
Hopefully, more positive energy on building a genuine national hang gliding association will show up.

PS - If you're worried about poor Joe, search: joe faust gliding
Banned??? Ha ha ha Now click on More results from ushawks.org
That's what the US Hawks forum accomplishes! That's a great achieverment, Bob. Thank you.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Thanks Rick.

Following up on your earlier post:

I got kicked off Paragliding Forum by complaining about too many people getting bashed by paragliders.
Then Joe himself got kicked off after he came to my defense.

Thanks for your testimony on Joe's character and courage.
Thanks also for documenting how Joe came to your defense.


Now, who here will do for Joe as Joe has done for Rick?

[Rick Masters]

Thanks for your testimony on Joe's character and courage.

You were there, Bob.
http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=40924
Yeah. Unfortunately, Joe has been one of the few in hang gliding to speak up on this massive deceit.
Note in particular the post on the second page by the soaring parachutist appointed to be the president of USHPA,
the guardian and overlord of today's USHPA hang glider pilots.
"Joe appears to be a Rick Masters in training."
You USHPA hang glider pilots are such a bunch of gullible fools...
You deserve EVERYTHING that has befallen you.

What was all the fuss about?
The first real global tally of paragliding deaths, that's what.
Go here for a saved late July page, close to what PartisanFox saw in early August.
https://web.archive.org/web/20110720065738/http://www.cometclones.com:80/