http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404Holger Selover-Stephan - 2010/05/28
Portland, Oregon
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?
I ordered and received a few barrel releases from Blue Sky. They have straight pins, not the curved ones I'm used to. Steve at Blue Sky tells me this:
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...they [the curved pins] don't release with as little tension on them as the straight pins. Otherwise, there is no difference. It makes it hard to put just a rope on the barrel end, which encourages a weak link. Just a good idea. That's why we've been shifting that way, as are many other manufacturers of these releases.
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Anybody got an opinion on this matter? Thanks!
OF COURSE THEY DO, Holger. This is the Jack Show. NOTHING BUT OPINIONS!!! When you've got a whole worldwide organization controlled by someone with total shitt for brains catering to people like you with total shitt for brains, opinions is all ya have to work with. So each participant has got at least a dozen of them to compensate. That way when one of his opinions gets blown out of the sky - figuratively or literally - he's got at least eleven backups (providing that if it's literal his parachute opens in time).
peanuts
i've tried both and the straight is easier to release. for some reason, it was also easier to improperly load/arm
Yeah peanuts, for some asshole who's never been able to get a solid grasp of the shift key it's pretty easy to phuck up damn near anything.
Holger
Thanks, peanuts. How do you improperly load the straight pin barrel?
Lemme take this one peenuts...
You find the stupidest person on the planet, hand it to him, duplicate his actions, and never once think or check it on the ground before you take it up.
Also, which style do you like better?
For functionality I'd hafta go with the straight. But you're more interested in STYLE. And for style a curve is just so much more elegant than a boring old straight pin.
tipvortex
New Jersey
Where's AeroTow?
Right here, Tip! At your service!
Holger
Uh? Not gettn it
Oh Holger... Those 193 magic days in 2009. And already you've forgotten me? Oh well, with a brain the size of a walnut I suppose there's only so much information you can store and still be able to do the essentials like differentiating the bathroom from hall closet. We certainly don't wanna have that problem ever again.
Bob Flynn
Jacksonville, North Carolina
I've only used the curve pin so I can't say one way or the other. BlueSky does alot of towing though, (scooter, truck and aero) so I have to put give some credit to their opinion.
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H2 - AT, FL, CL, FSL
Horizon ET 180/Z3 Pod/Yaesu 270 comm
Right Bob. If someone does the same thing over and over the same way for decades on end he surely must know what he's doing. And, as far as I know, Steve's only sent one his students to shock trauma with one of those things.
Prior USAF and damn proud of it.
Yeah, if only the Academy were more of an engineering school and less of a testosterone poisoned fundamentalist Christian cult.
Good Judgement comes from Wisdom, Wisdom comes from Bad Judgement
So how do you explain Bo Hagewood, Jim Rooney, Lauren Tjaden, and Bart Weghorst?
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
And at Quest they only jam up high and up high nothing's ever a BFD.
Holger
Thanks, Bob! They're probably find, but I'm still on the fence since I know the others are tried and work.
Yeah, Holger, they PROBABLY are FIND. I mean, fifteen thousand aerotow instructors and pilots mindlessly aping each other for twenty years couldn't possibly all be wrong about something, could they?
peanuts
what i was referring to was that for some reason, sometimes people didn't get the pin BETWEEN the lines (normal), and instead got it beside the loop.
Really? Is there a single recorded instance of anybody doing this? Or is it like the guy bolting the JATO unit to the top of his Chevy Impala and lighting it off in the Arizona desert? (bulls***.)
also check the release (the one we're talking about) to make sure it is engaged before signaling to initiate launch sequence. the straight pin would sometimes just slip open by itself. but that was Aerotow's itteration. don't know if i have seen Steve's yet.
No, that wasn't AeroTow's "itteration" you freakin' asshole. This is Aerotow's iteration:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/2797915482/That little stitched-in hump provides the light resistance inside the barrel to prevent it accidentally opening before launch.
as to who/what an "Aerotow" is, he was a dangle kite jumper with a SEVERE case of OCD and myopia who made BobK appear to be a wallflower. his posts would go on for months repeating hisself, convinced his was the only way.
Yeah, it would be so nice if you could just say two-plus-two-equals-four ONCE and move on to addressing the next issue for you eternal fuckups but the stupidity is something I never imagined would be possible.
also rube goldberg incarnate. the straight pin was the only simple/pure advocacy he had...
Zack C - 2011/01/10
When I first saw your release years ago on the Oz Report forum my impression was the same as most people's. I didn't know what the pictures were showing but it looked way more complicated than it needed to be. After seeing the problems that even the best releases on the market have and learning more about your release, however, I understand why you made it the way you did and the advantages it provides.
...if it was indeed his.
No, if you bozos ever get your shitt together enough to understand grade school science it will have been Jim Rooney's. He's the guy who told Wilbur and Orville that they needed a rudder to deal with adverse yaw. Just ask him.
Ryan Voight - 2010/05/29
Point of the Mountain
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as to who/what an "Aerotow" is...
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Funny, but also very true...
Hey Ryan, ya know what I think is pretty funny? "Instructors" like you telling knuckle draggers like Holger:
It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.
Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release.
'cause some of them are likely to actually do it. Then things start looking up for the gene pool - especially if they do it while they're up with you on a tandem lesson.
His username on here was "Aerotow", FYI. He also took it upon himself to contact the FAA and provide them with a report stating that the USHPA's aerotowing practices were utterly unsafe and people were getting hurt left and right
Yeah? Did any of you a**holes take the time to actually READ what I said? That's a rhetorical question 'cause I know damned well none of you has the attention span to get through through a whole paragraph - even with three or four smilies to break up the tedium a bit.
Lucky for us the FAA knew what to do with him.... IGNORE and disregard...
Yep. That's how come Shane got killed a state to the south of you last month.
Holger - 2010/05/29
Thanks, guys. Yeah, tipvortex clued me in with a PM. I forgot that was Tad's alias here.
It wasn't an "alias" Holger. The forum wouldn't let me register under my own name - like I have on everything else I've ever been on. You want aliases? peanuts, tipvortex, thefly257, hgnv...
After a while I just ignored all his preaching...
GOOD. I'd really hate to see the control group get much smaller. And, again, the gene pool...
...and just hoped the FAA would do the same.
Yeah. Time will tell how that works out for them.
Looks like the straight pin would be OK.
Oh, do ya think? How's the bent one LOOK? Has it ever occurred to you to actually TEST it? (Rhetorical question.)
I may still send the 6 I ordered back to Blue Sky. The barrels vary in length between 35mm and 50mm and there isn't a twist to lay the webbing flat in the Lark's Head knot. Also the webbing is bulkier then needed.
Yeah, Steve always has been one for overbuilt, underpowered crap.
The manufacturing seems a little sloppy, unfortunately.
SEEMS? Even to you?
Holger
2010/05/29 17:25
Wow, awesome! Thanks a lot, ax'!
Yeah! AWESOME. Ask him who PMed him that link eleven months prior. (Thanks a lot for sticking up for me, Axel.)
Jim Rooney - 2010/05/30
I'll leave ya'll to any discussions about the merits of the pins, but the way you incorrectly load the straight pin ones....
It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with straight versus curved - you moron. It's a function of the thickness of the webbing.
Rotate the pin sideways instead of the correct way... so if we're talking about the one in the picture... instead of rotating it as shown, with the tip of the pin sliding on the table, pick the tip up towards you and flop it over towards the barrel.
Your line can now trap itself between the big round base and the webbing, locking it. (it will not release).
Preventing this scenario is likely why he's using such thick webbing.
If the insanely thick webbing prevents an insanely stupid "pilot" from this insanely stupid scenario (and you're calling a "scenario" 'cause it's never actually happened) why are we even talking about pin shape in this context?
Holger
Ah, so an incorrectly loaded barrel would not have the pin sandwiched between the webbing. Instead it will lay on top of both layers of webbing. I see how that can snag upon release.
It isn't a case of it SNAGGING - you moron. It's LOCKED ON.
Makes sense to use a thick webbing to prevent this from happening. I'll try and sew two webbings together with a more flexible one towards the harness. Thanks, Jim. That was helpful! So you don't have a preference for either pin?
Who the phuck cares about his idiotic "PREFERENCES"?
Jim Rooney
Toma-y-to Toma-h-to
Back when Tad had his panties in a bunch, I decided to test things myself... it's easy to do... have a blast...
I took a single barrel release and hung it from the ceiling. I made a loop in a rope that allowed me to put my foot in the rope and be suspended an inch above the floor.
I opened the release.
Both open fine.
Curved pin was a little stiffer.
I filed it under Big Fing Deal.
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25
Jackson Hole
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
Jim Rooney
I routinely use curved pin barrels to D-Bag.
GOOD (DBag).
Holger
Thanks, Jim. It's all tomatoes to you because you know this stuff.
Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
Yeah. Keen intellect.
I'm new at this and thankful for the advice.
And I'm thankful you're taking that advice, Holger. And don't worry about being "new". You'll still be just as unbelievably clueless when your bent pin jams and you slam in at the end of that nightmare scenario people like you are so sure will never happen.
Jim
No worries Holger.
Sorry if it sounded like any of that was directed at you.
That's OK, Jim. I've got him covered.
BTW, Steve is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.
Figures. One dangerous fu**ing idiot signing off another dangerous fu**ing idiot. Two of his students launch unhooked within 143 days of each other. One gets killed and you just barely survive. (Real bitch the way that worked out.)
Anyway, he doesn't sell junk.
Scott Wilkinson - 2005/05/29
As Ralph mentioned, I didn't see Holly's accident, but Steve Wendt (Blue Sky Hang Gliding - Manquin, Virginia) saw it all (as did several others). For now, all I'm comfortable saying is that Holly opted to aerotow on her Moyes Litesport (one point - Bailey). From what Steve told me, she experienced oscillations shortly after takeoff which quickly became severe. At an altitude somewhere between fifty and a hundred feet (we don't know for sure) there was a lockout situation with the glider at a near ninety degree angle. When a line broke (I don't know which one), Holly's glider recoiled backwards, almost fully inverted, then partially recovered in a dive toward the ground.
Steve saw Holly pulling in for speed. He speculated had she been ten to twenty feet higher, she might have made it... and ten to twenty feet lower, she could have died. Whatever the case, she hit the ground hard at something less than a vertical angle. Her Charley Insider full-face helmet was broken through in two places (the chin and next to her eye), and Steve believes the breaks absorbed some of the impact and probably saved her life.
Nah. Course not.
If he's selling it, he likes it.
Yeah. And if a dealer is using the crystal meth he's selling - what more do you need to know?
That goes a long way in my book ;)
Yeah.
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
10. Hang Gliding Aerotow Ratings
-B. Aero Vehicle Requirements
06. A release must be placed at the hang glider end of the tow line within easy reach of the pilot. This release shall be operational with zero tow line force up to twice the rated breaking strength of the weak link.
What do we even need standards for? If some skinny little asshole can pry the thing loose and drop himself from a tree AND STEVE LIKES IT - what more do we need? Why don't we do gliders the same way? I flew it down a training hill once and it didn't fall apart or tuck AND STEVE LIKES IT... Look out eBay - here I come!!!
bobk
San Diego
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as to who/what an "Aerotow" is, he was a dangle kite jumper with a SEVERE case of OCD and myopia who made BobK appear to be a wallflower.
<
Proof that everything is relative.
However, it's a little unfair to label the combination of "focus" and "drive" (both good qualities) as "OCD" and "myopia" (both pathologies). I think Tad has both focus and drive, and so did many aviation pioneers (and pioneers in many other areas) who have improved our lives.
They say "it takes all kinds", and indeed that's true [spoken as Bob steps down from his soap box]. Carry on gentlemen.
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Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring
Learn to fly hang gliders - Join the Torrey Hawks - Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs
Paul Hurless
Reno
Tad was way beyond "focus and drive".
And what the hell would some waste of space like you know about either focus or drive? You never had an original thought in your entire life and never will. Somebody handed you a wrench and said, "Turn this. And that's exactly where you hit your limit.
bobk
To be honest, that's hard for me to say for sure in this case. But the topic did come up when I was on the Board, and the first reaction by some "leaders" in USHPA was to call the USHPA lawyer to muzzle him with a nasty letter. As a Board member I argued against that approach because I felt that it would be better to open lines of communication rather than shut them with legal threats. Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed and some of the Directors who knew him were called in to help.
It wasn't fortunate for Shane. Probably didn't do Lemmy Lopez a whole lotta good either.
As far as I know, things were resolved peacefully without further escalation.
Oh no. Two things were "resolved". USHGA decided it was totally cool with continuing to kill one per thousand per year in unbelievably stupid Shane Smith scenarios. I resolved that I would never again negotiate with those sleazy incompetent bastards and I will take any opportunity I can to do them as much damage as I possibly can for as long as I am physically able.
My biggest point is that someone like Tad (and even myself) has a tremendous amount of energy because they believe in their cause. It's far better (and wiser) for USHPA to work with that energy and to channel it rather than to beat their head against it. In my experience, they tend to reach for their lawyer waaaay too soon, and that just creates hard feelings.
Yep. Damn right it does. And they've just got one lawyer. And his understanding of aviation OBVIOUSLY sucks even worse than theirs does. 'Cause if it didn't he'd have actually read my letter and been so terrified of the way his scumbag client is behaving that he'd have done something about it and I'd have seen some positive change. But this guy's obviously a total moron too.
And they kill about ten people a year and seriously injure a lot more - most of which we don't hear about 'cause all of the effort they should be putting into reform goes into cover-up.
But I can educate the attorneys of victims and surviving family members to keep him real busy. Then dues might go up 'cause I might be able to launch a big enough attack to keep ten lawyers real busy.
And they're gonna lose. So insurance rates are gonna skyrocket, dues will go higher, membership will drop, and flight parks will find it a lot harder to do anything beyond one time thrill riders.
The same thing happened when USHPA got upset with Davis for posting a link to the USHPA web site, and I'm sure there have been other examples as well.
I'm sorry, I really didn't want to derail this topic since I've never towed, and I don't know much about towing at all. But I think USHPA needs to figure out how to bring our resources (people) together rather than threatening them and tearing them apart.
Way, way, way too late.
thefly257 - 2010/05/31
Orlando
I manufacture releases and have always used curved pins.
Yeah. Everybody and his freakin' dog MANUFACTURES releases. But nobody has any brains and nobody actually
TESTS them before endangering or ending people's lives on them.
I looked into using straight ones but it seems the curved ones had a couple of benefits I personally liked.
Oh. It SEEMS that the bent ones have a couple of benefits. And you "personally" LIKE them. WOW!!! You like them, Steve likes them, Jim, Bart, Paul, Lauren, Adam, Bo, Matt, Tracy, Malcolm, Bobby... EVERYBODY LIKES THEM. Nobody DOESN'T like them. So mission critical aviation equipment is just one giant popularity contest. Phuck standards. Let's put them in the air the same way we narrow things down for American Idol.
One, there was a little more friction that helped with accidental release prevention and also, the release was actually quicker.
The friction is a function of the thickness of the webbing - not the shape of the pin - you idiot.
With a straight pin, the release doesn't happen until the tip of the straight pin completely passes out of the aluminum tube.
Whereas with the bent pin it releases BEFORE you clear the tip.
With a curved pin, once the apex of the curve passes out of the tube, the force on the pin aids in the release.
Does it? Have you TESTED that? Did you find out if, in fact, the case is the precise opposite?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrel ... 066212198/(Rhetorical question. Don't talk to me - life is too short as it is.)
Holger
>
That goes a long way in my book ;)
<
Certainly does. Good to hear about Steve. I didn't mean to say it was junk I received from him.
Well then, lemme help you out some. It was shitt.
Nonetheless I'd say it was on the sloppy side and for aviation gear I like it on the mark.
OK, won't argue against that. Make it sloppy shitt.
Dan Tomlinson - 2005/05/30
Tad's post is difficult to read but I've seen his work. His release mechanism is elegant in its simplicity and effectiveness.
Hugh McElrath - 2005/03/05
Thanks, Tad. I was too green to fully appreciate your system when you showed it to me a couple of years ago. Now I'm more interested. Do I have to fabricate this myself from parts or are you in business?
Janni Papakrivos - 2008/06/30
Tad showed me the release system he installed in Hugh's glider. I was amazed at the quality and complexity of the system. Being able to tow and release without ever having to take your hands off the base tube is wonderful and much safer.
Patrick Halfhill - 2009/06/21
You and I met at the ECC a few years ago. We spent 45 minutes or more together going over your system. I saw it first hand. I was quite impressed with the quality of engineering and the time you spent on it.
Windlord - 2009/05/03
Very nice engineering, Tad. I can see a lot of thought went into the systems and there is always room to "build a better mousetrap".
Since this is a public forum and I don't want to make unfounded critical comments about a HG supplier...
No Holger, you REALLY don't wanna say anything critical about a USHGA Made Man. Not if you ever again wanna fly at a US tow park or speak on a large public forum. And you're never gonna be welcome on mine and if you come over here I'll rip your a** to shreds.
...let's file it under ignorant, anal customer expectations.
Yeah, let's do that. When someone even as stupid as you are recognizes the shoddiness of what's available from the Flight Park Mafia it should be pretty obvious to the just normally stupid glider crowd that we're never gonna get anything without good standards and enforcement.
With a curved pin, once the apex of the curve passes out of the tube, the force on the pin aids in the release.
Go back and READ (I know, never one of your strong points (assuming you have any)) what he said. He's just speculating.
That's exactly the information I was looking for. Appreciate it, thanks for sharing.
That's not INFORMATION. That's some anonymous, unidentifiable idiot's clueless OPINION. By the way how are things going at
http://www.chemtrails911.com?
I've ordered straight and curved release pins from ParaGear and will make a few releases to try it out.
By which you obviously mean take it up and fly it. Bench testing? (Rhetorical question.)
Sam Kellner - 2010/06/01
Leakey, Texas
With curved pins, attention to detail must be taken when folding the pin.
Normally the pin is folded back into the loop, tip first.
If the curved pin is folded improperly, and tucked back into the loop apex first, the tip of the pin can snag one side of the loop.
In this configuration, it will not release even if the barrel is clear.
Sorry no pic right now.
Ya know Sam, gliders used to have straight battens. Didn't matter which end you stuck in first or which side was up. Then gliders started coming with curved battens but there weren't any thirty page discussions about the dangers of inserting them backwards or upside down and nobody was stupid enough to do it.
Jim Gaar - 2010/06/01
Kansas City (Roeland Park)
Always curved here Holger. Hundreds of clean, no snag releases in both pro-tow and v bridle setups among 4-5 different pilots.
SUPER, Jim. HUNDREDS of tows!!! 130 pound Greenspot. NO PROBLEMS!!!
Why don't we just do passenger jets that way? Five planes with five pilots, each one does a hundred flights with passengers loaded in smooth air between Logan and JFK and if nobody goes down in flames we can skip all that burdensome big government airworthiness bulls***. And if planes start going down in flames after that we can just keep focusing on the good stuff.
Oh wait. The barrel release virtually never comes into play when you're towing two point so let's knock it down to a hundred flights. Way more than enough.
Jim Rooney - 2010/06/02
Here's how to foul a curved pin release. And how to fix it.
To foul it, you have to load it backwards through the webbing and lock it on one side. Putting a stitch where my fingers are pinching eliminates the problem as you can no longer rotate between the webbing.
You mean like the way I showed you and the rest of those DC area a**holes three years ago?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrel ... 61/detail/What a total sleazeball you are, Jim.
Straight pin releases are far easier to foul.
bulls***.
I'll see if I can get pictures of how... gotta see if I've got one hanging around.
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PilotGuy
2010/06/02 18:56
3 thumbs up
Holger
Good stuff, Jim. The photos really make it clear. I'll sew a seam in where you indicated it. Makes a lot of sense.
Thanks!
You're welcome, Holger.
(Mike, is this the same way the BHGA scumbags wrote you guys out of the history books?)
hgnv
Las Vegas
Nice visual Jim... really clears it up... Thanks
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"Nobody Plans to Fail.... Many just Fail to Plan"
Airborne Sting II xc
H-3 FL, FSL, CL, AT
Don't mention it, whoever the hell you are.
Jason Rogers - 2010/06/03
Port Macquarie, New South Wales
I've got a lot of time and sympathy for Tad.
I'm the "AeroTow" of the world of rebreathers. I knew a lot about them and when they became commercially available. I did a lot of hand waving about training, procedures, and design. I predicted death rates as high as ten percent of users per year.
As it turned out the death rate was no more than about one to two percent per year. Well the first year it was probably ten but then things did settle down.
Eventually I came to my senses and walked away from the whole thing, but it wasn't easy. A friend who refused to implement the solutions I advocated had horrible decompression accident and friends of friends died all the time. I blamed myself for not having pestered them enough to do things the way I thought they should have been done.
It was all a bit difficult. I would be tempted to shut up, then I would think that this one post might make the difference that would mean I wouldn't have to attend another funeral.
Now towing is clearly a lot safer than rebreather diving per event. But I can still understand where he's coming from.
=:)
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Intermediate, Moyes Mars 170, Moyes GTR 162, Airborne Fun 190, Airborne Sting 168, Mosquito NRG
I reckon anything advertised below this line must be bloody good (unless it's paraglding)
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bobk
2010/06/03 08:01
3 thumbs up
And... End of thread. (Probably used too many three syllable words and frightened everyone away.)
Holger,
http://www.flickr.com/photos/offcenter/122432026/I'm gonna post that link for your many friends when they announce your little "celebration of life" get-together. Maybe someone can chisel those idiot comments on your tombstone.
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