Sign in, say "hi", ... and be welcomed.

Re: Peter (Link Knife) Birren

Postby Free » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:09 am

JD Guillemette - 2009/02/13
New Lookout Release--preliminary test
Sweeeet!!!! Looks good to me.

I like the bent gate bar, as Marc suggested that should make release force many times less than tow force, if not nearly independant of tow line force.

Nicely done Lookout! Elegant solution!

As in most cases, the simplest designs work best.


I believe JD is some kind of helicopter mechanic fighting for our freedom somewhere in the middle east.

TadEareckson wrote: Dealing with this kinda crap I lose more brain cells through atrophy than I do guzzling my morning bottle of bourbon.


You have to learn to sip that morning bottle.
You can't enjoy life if you're in such a rush.
Free
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 1084
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:47 pm

Re: Peter (Link Knife) Birren

Postby Birren » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:48 am

TadEareckson wrote:... bashing everyone who points out (A) and (B) as Peter has done provides an absolutely indescribable amount of fun!

2. Who said anything about me wanting to convince people to use my system anyway? The vast majority of hang gliding people I know I want using Peter's, Matt's, Davis's, and Bobby's systems. The few people I DO want remaining in the gene pool don't need any convincing from me. They've seen what happens to the people who use Peter's, Matt's, Davis's, and Bobby's systems.


Put up or shut up, Tad. What exactly have "they" seen happen to people who use the Linknife? I'm not talking about anecdotal evidence such as my own posts, but actual witnessing "what happens".
- Peter
http://www.birrendesign.com/linknife.html - Linknife Tow Release
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx1_R8nYDrU - Static Tow Launch and crappy landing
http://www.birrendesign.com/astro.html - Objects in the Heavens - deep-sky fieldbook
Birren
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:06 pm
Location: Elk Grove IL

Re: Peter (Link Knife) Birren

Postby SamKellner » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:29 am

Birren wrote:Put up or shut up, Tad.



:thumbup: I second that :!: Put up or shut up. We shouldn't have to listen to an admitted drunk :thumbdown:

The time is right for the need of an open forum where users don't have to worry about being banned for discussing current issues.

Many HG pilots are asking for a HG Assn.

Even if it is a HG Tea Party that has influence on U*, that's what we need. It's working already!!

NOT Tad's over and over and over and over drunken bla bla.

Tad has his own mediun to use as his pulpit. I say it's time :!:

Sam Kellner
SWTHG
US Hawks
Southwest Texas Hang Gliders
US Hawks Hang Gliding Assn.
Chapter #4
SamKellner
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:15 pm
Location: SW Texas

Re: Peter (Link Knife) Birren

Postby TadEareckson » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:56 am

I believe JD is some kind of helicopter mechanic...

I guess you can get a away with using people of that caliber replacing parts in a system somebody WITH a brain designed. (I'll bet he'd get along really great with Paul Hurless.)

...fighting for our freedom somewhere in the middle east.

Hard to imagine he's doing anything to fight for MY freedom. If he was really interested in doing that he wouldn't have needed to travel a third of the way around the world.

You have to learn to sip that morning bottle.

Yeah? So what happens when it's time for the noon bottle and I've only completed two thirds of the previous task?

You can't enjoy life if you're in such a rush.

That ceased being any kind of realistic option so long ago I can't remember what it's like. But, I gotta admit... Making life as miserable as possible for as many deserving people as possible isn't all that bad a Plan B.

Put up or shut up, Tad.

Oh! You want ME to answer YOUR questions but it's perfectly OK for YOU to skip merrily past MINE. And that's justifiable how?

Oh, right. Bob said it was OK. Never mind. Sorry.

What exactly have "they" seen happen to people who use the Linknife?

It's very little about what happens to people who use the Linknife. It's almost ENTIRELY about what happens to people who, when the s*** hits the fan, NEED TO USE the Linknife - or three-string, spinnaker shackle, barrel - and CAN'T 'cause THEY CAN'T GET TO IT in time and/or without losing so much control that they immediately start doing unplanned semi-loops at two hundred feet if they're lucky and at one hundred feet if they're not.

I'm not talking about anecdotal evidence such as my own posts, but actual witnessing "what happens".

I SO love it when you write stuff like this and I get it safely stored on my hard drive. And Christmas is still the better part of a month away!

1. OK, I'm supposed to discount everything you write 'cause you have no credibility whatsoever. Hang on a minute... I need to get the laughter under control before I can resume typing coherently.

2. OK, I'm good. No, wait, gimme another couple of minutes.

3. Alright - no, wait. There, I'm OK this time. Really... And I can't use first hand reports from the guys flying - or trying to fly - the glider, even when they live. They've gotta be from people standing near the runway.

4. OK, you've got me. It's impossible to get so much as scratched if there's a Linknife anywhere in your system - regardless of how stupidly you configure the actuation elements.

5. And even if it were, if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), your 0.8 weak link will ALWAYS break before you can get into too much trouble and NEVER break to put you into too much trouble - just like it says it the Skyting Criteria, Donnell Hewett's original 12 elements of a good tow system, as viable today as they were in the early 80's when he wrote them.

OK, glad we've got everything all sorted out. Now let's join hands and go shoulder to shoulder helping Bob build a new national hang gliding organization designed to give all hang glider pilots a platform for sharing information and a focal point for pooling their efforts to further their own flying and the sport of hang gliding, where power will not be concentrated and opposing viewpoints will not be shunned, where the free speech of the members will really be honored, where all of God's children - black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, pin benders and sane people, Sam and life forms with functional central nervous systems...
TadEareckson
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:07 am

Re: Peter (Link Knife) Birren

Postby Birren » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:02 am

TadEareckson wrote:Oh! You want ME to answer YOUR questions but it's perfectly OK for YOU to skip merrily past MINE. And that's justifiable how?


It's too easy to miss your question(s), Tad, buried as they are in typographic diarrhea.

It's very little about what happens to people who use the Linknife. It's almost ENTIRELY about what happens to people who, when the s*** hits the fan, NEED TO USE the Linknife - or three-string, spinnaker shackle, barrel - and CAN'T 'cause THEY CAN'T GET TO IT in time and/or without losing so much control that they immediately start doing unplanned semi-loops at two hundred feet if they're lucky and at one hundred feet if they're not.


OK, so my example is the only thing you can point to... 1 out of 1000+. But it's not that I couldn't get to it (the release), it's that things happened so quickly that when decision time came, the speeds had built to where I couldn't hold it. The release string is always readily available... decision-thought time isn't.

The big keys to using any release to get out of a nascent problem are (1) recognizing there's a problem, (2) deciding what to do about the problem, and (3) physically doing what needs to be done in the right order. As Ms. Pfeiffer told me in regard to parachute design: You tell me what kind of accident you'll be in and I'll tell you what kind of 'chute to use.

4. OK, you've got me. It's impossible to get so much as scratched if there's a Linknife anywhere in your system - regardless of how stupidly you configure the actuation elements.


In the same breath, it's also impossible for your system to fail, regardless of how the pilot screws things up, right? Yours is absolutely fool-proof in all situations... have I got that right?

5. And even if it were, if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), your 0.8 weak link will ALWAYS break before you can get into too much trouble and NEVER break to put you into too much trouble - just like it says it the Skyting Criteria, Donnell Hewett's original 12 elements of a good tow system, as viable today as they were in the early 80's when he wrote them.


Yup, Don's 12 points are as good today as they were when he wrote 'em... and you're benefiting from his being the first to establish towing guidelines and considerations.

If my .8G weaklink won't break and save my a**, your 1.2-1.4G one certainly won't either. I can see an occasional benefit of having a heavier weaklink, but those situations are as rare as a full-blown lockout. The true cure for solving most towing issues is pilot training and situational awareness. Whatever type of release is used is personal preference, as long as the pilot knows how to use it and can trust it 100% to do its job.
- Peter
http://www.birrendesign.com/linknife.html - Linknife Tow Release
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx1_R8nYDrU - Static Tow Launch and crappy landing
http://www.birrendesign.com/astro.html - Objects in the Heavens - deep-sky fieldbook
Birren
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:06 pm
Location: Elk Grove IL

Re: Peter (Link Knife) Birren

Postby TadEareckson » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:54 am

It's too easy to miss your question(s), Tad, buried as they are in typographic diarrhea.

OK, I'll just keep repeating them until it makes it impossible for you to continue using that bulls*** excuse.

WHAT PROBLEMS OF ONE POINT USING A KOCH TWO STAGE OR TWO POINT ONE TO ONE IS A TWO TO ONE BRIDLE SOLVING?

(Note that it's right at the top of this post and in capital letters so that's gonna make the buried in typographic diarrhea defense a little iffy.)

OK, so my example is the only thing you can point to...

Oh! We're opening it back up to first person reports? COOL!

Phil Wainwright - 2005/02/27

We've been using Linknives here in Western Australia for many years now for both car and aero-towing. From thousands of tows there have been only a couple of release failures. These have been due to either the release line twisting around the Linknife, or wheat stubble becoming jammed in the "v" of the blades.

Al Hernandez - 2010

I can't reach my CUT line 'cause I have both hands on the downtubes, and if I let go of the Coke bottle grip I will crash.

1 out of 1000+.

Tommy Crump - 1986/10

The release that I am using works every time and is mechanically sound. You need not have an additional release in case this one fails. A good mechanical release, under most all circumstances, is going to release every time. There are some things that you must rely on hundreds of thousands of times without failure. A release mechanism that is properly designed can do that.

1. One out of a thousand plus TOTALLY SUCKS, Peter. If a crib kills a baby at a rate of one out of a million nap cycles it immediately becomes a major national news issue, there's a massive recall operation, and there are HUGE settlement payouts.

2. And just bear in mind that the stuff that leaks out for public consumption in this extremely tight-lipped inbred little sport typically represents a small part of the tip of the iceberg.

But it's not that I couldn't get to it (the release), it's that things happened so quickly that when decision time came, the speeds had built to where I couldn't hold it. The release string is always readily available... decision-thought time isn't.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/6116786848/

1. So you wouldn't have been ANY better off if you could've blown tow either by sliding your hand an inch or two inboard or just twisting your grip on the basetube?

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

I am personally familiar with such a problem, because it happened to me at a meet in Texas. Soon after lift-off the trike tug and I were hit by the mother of all thermals. Since I was much lighter, I rocketed up well above the tug, while the very experienced tug pilot, Neal Harris, said he was also lifted more than he had ever been in his heavy trike. I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees. I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending. By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a 20-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver. I cleared the buildings, but came very close to the ground at the bottom of the wingover. I leveled out and landed.

Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle. The result may have been similar to that of the pilot in Germany. The normal procedure for a tow pilot, when the hang glider gets too high, is to release in order to avoid the forces from the glider pulling the tug nose-down into a dangerous dive. This dangerous dive is what happened when Chris Bulger (U.S. team pilot) was towing John Pendry (former world champion) years ago. The release failed to operate in this case, and Chris was fatally injured. However Neal kept me on line until I had enough ground clearance, and I believe he saved me from injury by doing so. I gave him a heart-felt thank you.

2. Are you ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that - if you could have gotten your brain to kick in faster than mine or anybody else's can in a situation like that - that releasing immediately would've been a really great idea?

The big keys to using any release to get out of a nascent problem are (1) recognizing there's a problem, (2) deciding what to do about the problem, and (3) physically doing what needs to be done in the right order.

Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.

NO ONE - and I mean NO ONE - is capable of reacting to some of these situations fast enough to do anything about them. Therefore we MUST:

a) do everything we can to avoid getting into them within striking distance of the surface;

b) equip the pilot to give him the absolute best means of optimizing his response to and control of the situation; and

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
by Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny

c) recognize that those guys knew what the hell they were talking about - despite Donnell's creative reworking of Newtonian physics and near total disregard for common sense.

As Ms. Pfeiffer told me in regard to parachute design: You tell me what kind of accident you'll be in and I'll tell you what kind of 'chute to use.

Steve Kinsley - 1996/05/09

Personal opinion. While I don't know the circumstances of Frank's death and I am not an awesome tow type dude, I think tow releases, all of them, stink on ice. Reason: You need two hands to drive a hang glider. You 'specially need two hands if it starts to turn on tow. If you let go to release, the glider can almost instantly assume a radical attitude. We need a release that is held in the mouth. A clothespin. Open your mouth and you're off.

Under what emergency tow situation does Betty recommend:

a) you have your release actuator somewhere which requires a reach?
b) a two to one over a one to one bridle?

In the same breath, it's also impossible for your system to fail, regardless of how the pilot screws things up, right? Yours is absolutely fool-proof in all situations... have I got that right?

1. The top end of the one to one bridle has gotta clear the tow ring. I believe I've designed the bridle such that it's virtually incapable of wrapping - but I can never make that assumption.

2. If there's a wrap under normal tow tension there's a secondary weak link (which actually functions - not as a weak link - but as a safety component of the primary release) just safely over the strength of the top one which will almost certainly blow under the double and shock loading to which it's subjected.

3. If it doesn't blow I've got a string in my teeth I can release to finish the job.

Given those constraints... Yeah, the thing's bloody well bulletproof and I can get off tow within a second of my brain kicking in no matter what. And there's nobody and nothing that can stop me.

Yup, Don's 12 points are as good today as they were when he wrote 'em...

Technically, that's correct. The problem is that about two thirds of them were total crap when he wrote them and they haven't improved any in the three decades since.

...and you're benefiting from his being the first to establish towing guidelines and considerations.

Mike Lake - 2010/02/28

Many years ago, for the first time, we were treated to a glimpse of a USA towing system that was apparently revolutionising towing. What we were treated to was a fixed line system whose only automatic tensioning device was a weak-link. This was attached to flappy bridle contraption with lots of hard bits ready to hit you in the face and a reliance on a release system designed (it would seem) to be both impossible to operate, in many situations, and ideal to half hitch itself around any available part of the glider and/or other bits of the bridle.

Frankly, this was primitive crap. By this time we had (even if I say so myself) a far far superior system. Most of the problems had been solved and we were at the point of fine-tuning its practicality and standardising on things like launch procedures, etc. You can't imagine how pissed off I get when I hear phrases like "Modern day UK towing was introduced from the USA in the early '80s." Utter utter sh*t, but that's another story.

Yeah, I believed that for decades. Then I learned some brutally suppressed European history and started checking his math. It's crap - any halfway intelligent high school physics student can blow it apart. The guy's the most successful unintentional serial killer in the history of aviation and made a lot of my own towing career hell.

If my .8G weaklink won't break and save my a**, your 1.2-1.4G one certainly won't either.

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/09

A weak link is there to protect the equipment - not the pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting himself up for disaster.

That guy's a moron but he got that much right. The purpose of a weak link is not to save anyone's a** - it's a necessary evil to protect the plane after the "pilot" has demonstrated that he is not one. You need to start getting your head wrapped around that concept.

You don't use your weak link to save your a** in hang gliding any more than you use your air bag in the car to save your face. In the car you use your steering wheel and gas and brake pedals in a manner such that you never need the air bag and and in a glider you use your basetube and release in a manner such that you never need the weak link. And in neither environment should you expect to come out smelling like a rose should you ever allow yourself to get in a situation in which you need the device to kick in.

I can see an occasional benefit of having a heavier weaklink, but those situations are as rare as a full-blown lockout.

1. Like these:

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

Davis Straub - 2005/01/13

Tom Lanning had four launches, and two broken weaklinks and a broken base tube.

Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.

Shane Nestle - 2010/09/17

So far I've only had negative experiences with weak links. One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared immediately and put my feet down only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped.

Peter Birren - 2005/02/08

This scenario is in my opinion what happened with Mike Haas at Cushing Field last year. His weaklink broke at a low altitude and he rolled off the stall.

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13

The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.

maybe?

2. Some of these rare situations happen a couple of dozen times a day at aerotow operations.

3. If we don't gear our equipment for extremely rare situations once or twice every hundred thousand tows we're gonna kill someone we don't need to.

4. Full blown lockouts aren't all that rare in aerotowing.

The true cure for solving most towing issues is pilot training and situational awareness.

Yeah, we really need to be teaching people how to better fight lockouts with one hand while releasing with the other.

British Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association Technical Manual - 2003/04

On tow the Pilot in Command must have his hand actually on the release at all times. 'Near' the release is not close enough! When you have two hands completely full of locked-out glider, taking one off to go looking for the release guarantees that your situation is going to get worse before it gets better.

Or maybe we should just continue with our current program of teaching them how to best deny reality.

Whatever type of release is used is personal preference...

Yep, welcome to hang gliding. Everything's the personal preference of any moron who can afford to pay for a rating card.

But if my nephew's smart and goes into sailplaning instead of this idiot bastard branch of aviation he'll be flying an FAA certified Tost release and won't ever go into an unplanned semi-loop after he uses it in an emergency situation.

...as long as the pilot knows how to use it and can trust it 100% to do its job.

Gregg McNamee - 1996/12

To actuate the primary release the pilot does not have to give up any control of the glider. (Common sense tells us that the last thing we want to do in an emergency situation is give up control of the glider in order to terminate the tow.)

If your system requires you to take your hand off the control bar to actuate the release it is not suitable.

So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop.

Right.
TadEareckson
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:07 am

Re: Peter (Link Knife) Birren

Postby Birren » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:05 pm

TadEareckson wrote:WHAT PROBLEMS OF ONE POINT USING A KOCH TWO STAGE OR TWO POINT ONE TO ONE IS A TWO TO ONE BRIDLE SOLVING?


Already answered.

Phil Wainwright - 2005/02/27

We've been using Linknives here in Western Australia for many years now for both car and aero-towing. From thousands of tows there have been only a couple of release failures. These have been due to either the release line twisting around the Linknife, or wheat stubble becoming jammed in the "v" of the blades.


Phil and I exchanged a few emails about this. A slight change to his pre-launch procedure eliminated both problems. That change was to tension up the towline and then inspect the release to make sure all was correct, including the routing of the bridle. It's the "last chance" pre-flight of a system that had just been hooked up, pretty much like it's a release's Hang Check.

1 out of 1000+.


Yup, those were my personal flights. Figure in all the others just in the Reel Pilots and there have been 10's of thousands of static line tows without major problems.

1. So you wouldn't have been ANY better off if you could've blown tow either by sliding your hand an inch or two inboard or just twisting your grip on the basetube?


That's about the size of it.

2. Are you ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that - if you could have gotten your brain to kick in faster than mine or anybody else's can in a situation like that - that releasing immediately would've been a really great idea?


IF... big word.

NO ONE - and I mean NO ONE - is capable of reacting to some of these situations fast enough to do anything about them. Therefore we MUST:

a) do everything we can to avoid getting into them within striking distance of the surface;

b) equip the pilot to give him the absolute best means of optimizing his response to and control of the situation; and

"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny


Never... another big word that's meaningless in the real world, like Always.

A clothespin. Open your mouth and you're off.


I guess you don't use radios. Kinda hard to be understood with a mouth full of marbles.

Under what emergency tow situation does Betty recommend:


Straw Man Alert! Re-read the full quote. Her comment had to do with parachutes, not towing.

Given those constraints... Yeah, the thing's bloody well bulletproof and I can get off tow within a second of my brain kicking in no matter what. And there's nobody and nothing that can stop me.


Ah, the Superior Pilot who never makes a mistake!

Yup, Don's 12 points are as good today as they were when he wrote 'em...

Technically, that's correct. The problem is that about two thirds of them were total crap when he wrote them and they haven't improved any in the three decades since.


So why haven't you re-written them, correcting the physics professors obvious errors?

You don't use your weak link to save your a** in hang gliding any more than you use your air bag in the car to save your face.


Quite right. The weaklink and airbag are there to save your life.

4. Full blown lockouts aren't all that rare in aerotowing.


Which is why I didn't participate all that much. Risk/reward was too high.

The true cure for solving most towing issues is pilot training and situational awareness.

Yeah, we really need to be teaching people how to better fight lockouts with one hand while releasing with the other.

I disagree completely with your off-base translation of my words. Tow pilots of all varieties need to learn about the potential for a lockout and recognize when it's starting so the decision-thought time is shortened.

Gregg McNamee - March 1999 (in a private email between Gil Griffith, Gregg and me)

Opinions are like butt holes everybody's got one. I think that experience is a better guide to safe operations than just another biased opinion.


You've got your opinion and favor a complex system. I have my opinion and favor a simple one-step system. Enjoy yours and I'll do likewise.
- Peter
http://www.birrendesign.com/linknife.html - Linknife Tow Release
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx1_R8nYDrU - Static Tow Launch and crappy landing
http://www.birrendesign.com/astro.html - Objects in the Heavens - deep-sky fieldbook
Birren
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:06 pm
Location: Elk Grove IL

Re: Peter (Link Knife) Birren

Postby Birren » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:16 pm

SamKellner wrote:Tad has his own medium to use as his pulpit. I say it's time :!:


I'll 2nd that emotion! And at the same time apologize for blathering on as I have.
- Peter
http://www.birrendesign.com/linknife.html - Linknife Tow Release
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx1_R8nYDrU - Static Tow Launch and crappy landing
http://www.birrendesign.com/astro.html - Objects in the Heavens - deep-sky fieldbook
Birren
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:06 pm
Location: Elk Grove IL

Re: Peter (Link Knife) Birren

Postby TadEareckson » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:11 pm

Already answered.

Yeah, I know, it holds the nose down so you don't have the huge stalling problems that are killing the one to one people off in droves. I meant something that has some basis in reality.

Phil and I exchanged a few emails about this. A slight change to his pre-launch procedure eliminated both problems. That change was to tension up the towline and then inspect the release to make sure all was correct, including the routing of the bridle. It's the "last chance" pre-flight of a system that had just been hooked up, pretty much like it's a release's Hang Check.

1. All stuff that someone with a proper built-in barrel based system doesn't need to do and can't screw up.

2. Yeah. The release's Hang Check. Like we need that lethal approach in yet another area of the sport.

Yup, those were my personal flights. Figure in all the others just in the Reel Pilots and there have been 10's of thousands of static line tows without major problems.

GREAT!!! So we don't really need to worry about what we can do to prevent more situations like the ones that killed Brad Anderson, Eric Aasletten, Frank Sauber, Bill Bennett, Mike Del Signore, Richard Graham, Jamie Alexander, Frank Spears, Rob Richardson, Debbie Young, Mike Haas, James Simpson, Arlan Birkett, Jeremiah Thompson, Steve Elliott, and Roy Messing. 'Cause YOU'VE got a SAFETY AWARD already and don't really hafta give a rat's a** about moving anything in a positive direction.

That's about the size of it.

Sure Peter, if you say so.

IF... big word.

Is there some kind of rational thought process going on with that? Eh, never mind.

Never... another big word that's meaningless in the real world, like Always.

Doug Hildreth - 1991/06

Good launch, but at about fifty feet the glider nosed up, stalled, and the pilot released by letting go of the basetube with right hand. Glider did a wingover to the left and crashed into a field next to the tow road.

This scenario has been reported numerous times. Obviously, the primary problem is the lack of pilot skill and experience in avoiding low-level, post-launch, nose-high stalls. The emphasis by countless reporters that the pilot lets go of the glider with his right hand to activate the release seems to indicate that we need a better hands-on way to release.

I know, I know, "If they would just do it right. Our current system is really okay." I'm just telling you what's going on in the real world. They are not doing it right and it's up to us to fix the problem.

It's not meaningless to people who DON'T have total s*** for brains.

I guess you don't use radios. Kinda hard to be understood with a mouth full of marbles.

Peter to Tug! Peter to Tug!

I centerpunched a thermal just coming off the cart and instantly went straight up under VERY high towline forces into an over-the-top lockout. I've got both hands on the basetube stuffed well past my knees but the glider won't come back down and my point eight G weak link isn't breaking to keep me out of trouble like Donnell said it would.

If I pull my release I won't be able to hold the nose down and I'll pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop.

Would you mind squeezing your lever for me as soon as it's convenient? Don't worry, I'll drop the towline back at the usual place.

Did you copy any of that? Hello? Is this thing on?

No Peter. I don't use a radio - there's nothing much I really need to talk to these as*holes about once I'm hooked up behind them.

Her comment had to do with parachutes, not towing.

So why did you bring it up then?

Ah, the Superior Pilot who never makes a mistake!

Nah. I'm a crappy pilot who does NOTHING BUT make mistakes. That's why I can't afford to go up with crappy equipment the way you do. But I'm not the one breaking larynxes and ribs and doing unplanned semi-loops at 200 feet.

I'm also a really crappy driver so I use a brake actuator where I can always hit it with my right foot without letting go of the steering wheel and doing an unplanned semi-loop.

So why haven't you re-written them, correcting the physics professors obvious errors?

I have.

http://energykitesystems.net/Lift/hgh/T ... ATSOPs.pdf
http://energykitesystems.net/Lift/hgh/T ... elines.pdf

Donnell Hewett - 2008/11/05

Let me begin by saying that I personally appreciate Tad Eareckson's efforts to improve the SOP of aerotowing as well as his suggestion to update the Skyting Criteria. It is through efforts like his that progress is made toward safer towing.

I thank him for keeping this issue before the hang gliding community.

Bill Cummings - 2011/10/26

Very fine effort Tad.

Quite right. The weaklink and airbag are there to save your life.

1. Those items only kick in AFTER you're done something astronomically stupid (which, in your case, is going up repeatedly with a release you know you won't be able to get to in an emergency).

2. I don't wanna be in a car with someone who's depending on the airbags to get us safely to the airport.

3. See if you can try to start understanding this...

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/09

A weak link is there to protect the equipment - not the pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting himself up for disaster.

If the weak link were there to save lives then people like Bill Bennett, Mike Del Signore, Richard Graham, Jamie Alexander, Frank Spears, Rob Richardson, Debbie Young, Mike Haas, Robin Strid, James Simpson, Arlan Birkett, Jeremiah Thompson, Steve Elliott, and Roy Messing would still be around. And they're not, right?

Which is why I didn't participate all that much. Risk/reward was too high.

I got news for ya, Peter. A competent person using sane equipment in a competent aerotow operation does not typically break a larynx and four ribs before his third tow and perform an unplanned semi-loop at two hundred feet coming off tow by his sixty-fifth.

I disagree completely with your off-base translation of my words. Tow pilots of all varieties need to learn about the potential for a lockout and recognize when it's starting so the decision-thought time is shortened.

Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.

Yeah sure, Peter. That's gonna happen. But when it does we'll also have the flying pig midair issue to deal with.

Opinions are like butt holes everybody's got one. I think that experience is a better guide to safe operations than just another biased opinion.

Wow. That was profound. And I can't believe I've never heard it before now.

Gregg McNamee - 1996/12

To actuate the primary release the pilot does not have to give up any control of the glider. (Common sense tells us that the last thing we want to do in an emergency situation is give up control of the glider in order to terminate the tow.)

If your system requires you to take your hand off the control bar to actuate the release it is not suitable.

So I guess sometime in the couple of years between his article in the magazine he saw the light and renounced the drivel he had written about the critical importance of being able to release in an emergency without doing unplanned semi-loops. So when does he get HIS NAA Safety Award?

You've got your opinion and favor a complex system. I have my opinion and favor a simple one-step system.

1. This is not about OPINIONS, Peter.

Steve Kinsley - 1996/05/09

You need two hands to drive a hang glider. You 'specially need two hands if it starts to turn on tow. If you let go to release, the glider can almost instantly assume a radical attitude.

That's not an OPINION - that's REALITY. That's a reality that had just killed my long time road trip buddy two weeks prior.

2. Taking a hand off of a stuffed basetube to snatch a lanyard and popping up and over into an unplanned semi-loop is NOT a simple one-step operation. That's an EXTREMELY DANGEROUS three-step operation.

3. Twisting your hand on the basetube to terminate a tow is about as simple and safe an operation as anyone can ask for.

4. I don't favor a complex system. I favor ANY system that WORKS safely, reliably, and quickly with whatever level of complexity it takes to best do the job. Yours doesn't come anywhere remotely close.

Enjoy yours and I'll do likewise.

I'm ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE you will. And I'm also ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that it won't take too much longer for yet another Frank Sauber, Richard Graham, Rob Richardson, Debbie Young, Mike Haas, Holly Korzilius, Steve Elliott, or Roy Messing to slam into a runway only because a bunch of dull witted wastes of space such as yourself are happy forever living 1985 'cause you've got something that works good enough for YOU most of the time as long as nothing unexpected happens.

And besides, since YOU don't aerotow why should you be the least bit concerned with any of the issues specific to the form of towing that accounts for the other 95 percent of the flatlanders getting off the ground? They're not YOU'RE problem, right?

I'll 2nd that emotion!

Ooh! A Peter and Sam bonding moment. How touching. I never imagined that such disparate individuals would be able to unite on such common ground so quickly. A glimmer of hope for Bob's vision of a new national hang gliding association!

And at the same time apologize for blathering on as I have.

That's alright. I'd have been stunned if you had had anything of substance to say.

But... There's also a lot of value in being able to get a lot of stunningly stupid statements on the record for the inevitable toldyaso moments. So it's not like your efforts were a total waste of time.
TadEareckson
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:07 am

Re: Peter (Link Knife) Birren

Postby TadEareckson » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:16 pm

Peter's probably declared victory and left at this point - leaving the usual pile of inconvenient and embarrassing unanswered questions behind him - but there's a lot more fun to be had at his expense here. And where there's fun to be had...

Peter Birren

Skyting Criteria

These are Donnell Hewett's original 12 elements of a good tow system. They are as viable today as they were in the early 80's when he wrote them.

Group 1 – Accurate simulation

In order for an artificial gravity to accurately simulate natural gravity, it must have the same characteristics as natural gravity, namely (1) constant in direction, (2) constant in magnitude, (3) distributed the same as gravity and (4) acting only through the center-of-mass of each component.

#01: CONSTANT DIRECTION

The direction of the towing force must remain essentially constant throughout every phase of the towed flight. (Length of the tow line must be long compared to the transverse motion of the glider... the faster the glider climbs and maneuvers, the longer tow line needed... 500 feet or longer.)

#02: CONSTANT TENSION

The tension in the tow line must remain essentially constant throughout every phase of the towed flight. (Some tension regulation device must be used... +/- 15 pounds during every phase of tow. Settings should reflect a "comfortable" flight and "reasonable" climb rate.)

#03: C-M (Center of Mass)

DISTRIBUTION The towing force must be distributed between the components of the flying system proportionally to the masses of the respective components. (Pilot and glider move in relation to each other and the tow force needs to be evenly distributed. 2:1 bridle is quite effective at this – 2/3 force on the pilot, 1/3 force on the glider.)

#04: CM ATTACHMENTS

The tow line/bridle must be attached as closely to the effective center-of-mass of each of the components and must not be allowed to touch any other part of the flying system. (Violations of this produce lockouts, adverse yaw and other loss of control problems.)

Group 2 – Safe transition

Any system must be able to handle: deviations from the ideal case; pilot release; excessive tow forces; learning.

#05: GRADUAL TRANSITIONS

The transition to and from tow, as well as any variations while on tow, must be gradual in nature. (Use of a long line that has sufficient stretch – but not too much stretch or driving will be difficult. 3/16" – 1/4" hollow braided polypropylene, polyethylene or nylon are used successfully.)

#06: RELIABLE RELEASES

The release devices and their activation methods must be sturdy, rapid and reliable. (Release activation MUST be readily accessible to the pilot regardless of where his hands are or where his body has shifted. Only single-point release systems should be used.)

#07: INFALLIBLE WEAK LINK

The system must include a weak link which will infallibly and automatically release the glider from tow whenever the tow line tension exceeds the limit for safe operation. (There is always the possibility something unexpected can happen. Breaking point should be appropriate for the weight and experience of the pilot, not to exceed 1G – sum of all towed parts.)

#08: SAFE LEARNING METHOD

The system must include a method for safely learning to use it by gradually advancing from one level of experience to the next. (NEVER try 2 new things at once. NEVER allow yourself to be pushed beyond your personal comfort level. NEVER exceed the limits of your equipment and skills. NEVER go more than twice as high, fast, far, etc., as previously mastered. Learn in smooth air before transitioning to rougher air.)

Group 3 – Practical implementation

Perhaps obvious, but safety should never be taken for granted.

#09: ADEQUATE POWER

The system must contain a source of power adequate to maintain a safe mode of flight while under tow.

#10: CAPABLE CREW

The system must be operated by a crew which is adequate in number and competent in ability to see that it functions properly. (Driver, spotter, launch assistant, pilot.)

#11: RELIABLE COMMUNICATIONS

The system must provide a means whereby the pilot can reliably communicate to the rest of the crew. (Anything longer that 500 feet of tow line requires a radio – minimum from pilot to driver – for pilot-in-command. Everyone must agree on what signals or commands that will be used.)

#12: SUITABLE ENVIRONMENT

The system must be operated only within the environment and under the conditions for which it was designed.

Zack C - 2011/04/15

After over a hundred each of hill/mountain launches, aerotows, and surface tows, I feel that platform launching is the safest way to get a hang glider into the air.

Zack's got that absolutely right - the way they do it at his Hearne home site anyway.

1. He uses a bridle effectively connected only to his hips.

2. He starts prone with both hands on the basetube and stays that way.

2. He lets the truck power him up to a steady 25 or 30 mph airspeed before allowing the glider to become airborne.

3. He instantly blasts up from virtually on top of the winch through the kill zone with a high sustained rate of climb under high tension transmitted through a spectra towline using a weak link over twice his flying weight and a three-string release ready to blow himself off under full tension in an instant if necessary.

...

01. His effective towline length is close to zero at the most dangerous point of the operation - five hundred feet under the minimum Skyting Criteria requirement. Are we seeing platform launchers getting majorly int*rcoursed up just off the truck because of that flagrant violation?

02. Let's move Zack from the runway at Hearne to the dry lakebed outside of Vegas (where Todd Jones shows us all how to use a hook knife to best effect...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJGUJO5BjnA

...to supplement his very very reliable bent pin release) so the truck can operate in an extra dimension. If Zack gets blown or rolled to the left should the truck move to the left to help him out - the way a tug does for an aerotower - or continue straight ahead so as not to violate the constant direction mandate?

03. On one of my early platform launches there was a lot of wind as we rolled up to launch airspeed and about a half a second after I pulled the pin there suddenly wasn't and I found myself looking straight ahead at the license plate for a while. Would it have been OK for the driver to really crank up the tension to get me climbing or would he have been limited to giving me an extra fifteen pounds to stay in compliance?

04. Shouldn't Zack be using a two to one bridle so that two thirds of the tow tension is routed to his hips and one third is routed to the center of mass of the glider to make himself lockout and adverse yaw proof?

05. Instead of blasting off at 25 or 30 miles per hour shouldn't he be eeeasing the glider into the air a little over stall speed and graaadually increasing his airspeed and climb rate for a nice smooooth transition to tow?

06. What if he locks out because he wasn't using a center of mass bridle system? Should he blow tow immediately or wait a while to stay in compliance with the gradual transition from tow mandate?

07. Why is he using spectra instead of a nice stretchy poly or - even better - nylon? Wouldn't that help a lot with smoothing out the tension fluctuations in rough air. Hey, Dead-Eye Mike! You got an opinion on this issue?

08. We can't give Zack a button under his finger so in an emergency he could blow the three-string release/bridle assembly off his hips with both hands still on the basetube and without doing an unplanned semi-loop because:

-a) That would add complexity to the system and complexity is ALWAYS BAD.

-b) It might not work.

-c) Zack wouldn't use it 'cause he'd hafta check the battery level every Friday evening and run a wire up his sleeve when suiting up. And he's got enough hassle already locking his carabiner, checking his parachute pins, and buckling his helmet.

-d) The rule says the release "MUST be readily accessible to the pilot regardless of where his hands are or where his body has shifted", his three-string fulfills that requirement just fine, and that's plenty good enough.

-e) If he were really concerned about safety he'd be using a maximum one G weak link which would infallibly and automatically release the glider from tow whenever the towline tension exceeded the limit for safe operation.

-f) He's got a radio he can use without taking his hands off the basetube so he can phone his spotter to start getting busy with that machete.

NEVER go more than twice as high, fast, far, etc., as previously mastered.

09. Is that how you learned to tow, Zack? "OK, you did fine at twenty miles per hour at five feet for a hundred yards. Let's try forty at ten for two hundred this time and see how it goes."

The system must be operated by a crew which is adequate in number and competent in ability to see that it functions properly. (Driver, spotter, launch assistant, pilot.)

10. OK class, let's see a show of hands...

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

How many of you would feel great being low, rolled, and partially stalled with that guy on the other end of the line?

William Olive - 2008/12/24

I've seen a few given the rope by alert tug pilots, early on when things were going wrong, but way before it got really ugly. Invariably the HG pilot thinks "What the hell, I would have got that back. Now I've got a bent upright."

The next one to come up to the tuggie and say "Thanks for saving my life." will be the first.

Any takers for Billo?

I want a good driver and a launch assistant who at least understands about ten or fifteen words of English but I'll take care of the piloting myself, thank you very much. I don't want anybody NEAR the other end of MY rope - especially if he has something sharp in one of his hands - and I don't want the idiot tug driver even thinking about the release lever unless HIS situation is being compromised.

Bill Bryden - 1999/06

During the tug's roll-out for the second launch attempt, the tug pilot observed the glider clear the runway dust and then begin a left bank with no immediate correction. At that point he noticed the launch cart was hanging below the glider and immediately released his end of the 240 foot towline. The tug never left the ground and tug pilot watched the glider continue a hard bank to the left achieving an altitude of approximately 25 feet. Impact was on the left wing and then the nose of the glider. Rob was killed immediately from severe neck and head trauma.

And and I've never been behind a tug whose situation was being compromised by me.

The system must provide a means whereby the pilot can reliably communicate to the rest of the crew.

Why?

Zack DOES use a radio but ONLY to call for tension adjustment at high altitude when the line diameter on the drum is nearing minimum and safety has long before ceased being an issue. Once the glider has started rolling what needs to be said on the radio that's gonna affect the operation in a positive manner?

The system must be operated only within the environment and under the conditions for which it was designed.

Can you predict that the environment and conditions will be benign and stable enough that you can dumb down your design...

Peter Birren - 2008/10/27

Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.

...the way Peter does so that it doesn't really need to be able to handle a worst case scenario?

Peter Birren - 2011/11/29

So why haven't you re-written them, correcting the physics professors obvious errors?

Most of this stuff is CLUELESS. Donnell was an isolated Rogallo standard pilot with about three hours airtime, a hundred flights, and a Hang One rating when he cooked most of this stuff up. He didn't look at how sailplanes were operating, assumed that everybody who was frame towing had everything else wrong too, ignored the parallel development and superior advancements from the Norfolk (England) Hang Gliding Club people (Brooks and Lake Bridles), got the physics catastrophically wrong, and either ignored or attempted to shoehorn into place by any means possible any data that contradicted his models and assumptions.

Today there are ZILLIONS of aerotow launches of high performance gliders.

01. NOBODY uses a two to one "center of mass" bridle. The pilot typically tows with shoulder only attachments with nothing going anywhere NEAR his center of mass and NOTHING AT ALL going to the glider.

02. NOBODY foot launches. Everybody gets on a cart, prones out, puts his hands on the basetube, builds up a lot of excess speed, blasts off, and pulls in and waits for the Dragonfly to get airborne. People who make "gradual transitions to tow" are likely to get their freakin' necks broken.

03. The smart ones - like Steve Kinsley and the Russians - have release actuators in their teeth so they don't hafta do unplanned semi-loops when they release like the idiots do (sometimes surviving from two hundred feet and sometimes dying of massive head trauma from one hundred feet).

04. They don't do gradual transitions from tow when the s*** hits the fan because if they did they'd have been dead five seconds ago. They don't even do gradual transitions from tow when the s*** ISN'T hitting the fan.

05. The off the scale stupid ones use weak links...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTa6XL16i0U

...which infallibly and automatically release the glider from tow whenever the tow line tension exceeds the limit for safe operation.

06. The halfway intelligent ones don't use weak links.

07. The smart ones use one and a half to two G weak links.

08. They don't use tension controlling devices or gauges, they have NO FREAKIN' CLUE what their tensions are, and their tensions are all over the map in the violent thermal conditions in which they most like to fly.

10. They don't use minimum 500 foot nylon towlines. They use maximum 250 foot spectra towlines.

11. They don't do "constant direction". If the tug finds a thermal it immediately banks on its ear to hook it and the glider immediately banks on its ear to follow. If the glider gets kicked to the side the tug moves to get back in front of it.

12. They don't talk to each other on radios. They watch each other and use common sense.

13. Except for takeoff and waveoff they don't even use hand signals. They use plane signals - fer instance, the glider being low is a signal to the tug to gas it and dive.

According to Donnell's assumptions, prediction, criteria the smart one point aerotowers would all be dead after two or three tows in smooth conditions at best. And, in reality, even the ones using Straub/Rooney links, releases, and bridles usually survive a couple of dozen.

REAL WORLD safe aerotowing criteria for based on REAL physics and common sense?

1. Use a one to one bridle or, if you're feeling a little lucky, a one point.

2. NEVER foot launch.

3. "Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny

4. "The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

5. "A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett

6. Elasticity is a four letter word.

7. Any talking you need to do, do it before any engines are started.

8. If you're gonna do something stupid, do it over two hundred feet minimum.

9. If you see a USHGA Safety Award or Instructor of the Year Certificate hanging on the wall in the office, leave the glider strapped to the racks, get back in the car, and drive somewhere else.
TadEareckson
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:07 am

PreviousNext
Forum Statistics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests

Options

Return to Hang Gliding General