[Bob Kuczewski]

What is murdering the sport of hang gliding?

My answer: not having a community that stands up for each other.

Paraglider pilots have that. Ask anyone who's been at all critical of them. They swarm together and overwhelm their critics. Ask Rick. Ask Joe. Ask me.

I compare it to the European conquest of America. The native people of the Americas far outnumbered the sparse and frail landing parties arriving tired and weak after each long ocean voyage. A united effort by the natives would have been insurmountable for sufficient time to catch up technologically. But they weren't united. They were scattered little fifedoms with long histories of inter-tribal warfare. Many thought they would form alliances with the invaders to overcome their rivals. They were all duped. They were all destroyed. They didn't stand up for one another. They were divided and they were conquered.

Compare that to the sport of hang gliding. We have similar scattered fifedoms ruled by similar petty dictators who will kill any competing ideas or organizations who try to unify the sport. There is no common meeting place that represents all hang gliding pilots. We are divided.

The petty dictators running USHPA, hanggliding.org, and OzReport have all established their own little tribes. They are dividing the hang gliding community ban by ban, expulsion by expulsion, and no one speaks up about it because they don't want to be next.

That's what's killing the sport of hang gliding. Anyone who steps up to unify the sport in any way is an immediate enemy of the entrenched special interests. They are targeted and destroyed while everyone watches in silence.

Let's not forget what Joe Faust was doing when he was silenced. He was starting a new organization providing open and objective ratings for everyone. That threatened USHPA and it threatened Jack. So Joe was silenced by Jack with approval by Forbes. The entire hang gliding community stood by in nearly universal silence while this was done.

Some of you may be critical of the U.S. Hawks, but we have been the ONE place where everyone has a voice and where we speak up in defense of our members. We encourage all hang glider pilots to stand in solidarity with one another and to treat each other the way we would want to be treated ourselves. If you wouldn't want to be banned from hanggliding.org, then don't tolerate anyone else being banned from hanggliding.org. If you wouldn't want to be banned from OzReport.com, then don't tolerate anyone else being banned from OzReport.com. If you wouldn't want to be expelled from USHPA, then don't tolerate anyone else being expelled from USHPA.

A recent post on hanggliding.org described a three-legged stool supporting hang gliding: community, instruction, and sites. I believe the most important of these is community because a community can work to procure the other two. But there is no "community" in hang gliding. There are just scattered tribes where dissenting voices are silenced in silence.

[Frank Colver]

Let's not forget what Joe Faust was doing when he was silenced.

You were wrong about Joe Faust being silenced. He wasn't silenced, he can post all he wants about his ratings registry on this forum.

He wasn't willing to agree to what Jack wanted in order to let him back on HG.org and that's Joe's personal decision to make. I neither agree nor disagree with Joe's decision.

Nobody is silenced as long as we have these two entirely different forums to choose from. Long live both forums.

Frank

[Bob Kuczewski]

Let's not forget what Joe Faust was doing when he was silenced.

You were wrong about Joe Faust being silenced. He wasn't silenced, he can post all he wants about his ratings registry on this forum.

Joe wasn't silenced? Right. And Nelson Mandela wasn't silenced either. He could still talk to his fellow prisoners for 27 years ... and to the ants on the walls whenever in solitary confinement.

Joe was silenced on the hanggliding.org forum ("The World's Largest"), and he remains silenced there to this day. You continually complain that you can't speak up about it on hanggliding.org because you would be banned yourself. But by your own logic, you wouldn't be "silenced" by being banned because you could still post to other sites. So given that you wouldn't be "silenced" for defending Joe, why don't you continue to speak up for him?

He wasn't willing to agree to what Jack wanted in order to let him back on HG.org and that's Joe's personal decision to make. I neither agree nor disagree with Joe's decision.

For completeness, what is your understanding of what Jack wanted Joe to do in order to remain able to post on hanggliding.org? You did attempt to negotiate, so you have a better understanding of it than anyone else on the planet. So please let us know the details of why Joe was banned, and what he would have had to do to remain able to post. You can review the history of Joe's ban here:

      Posts from Banning of Joe Faust at hanggliding.org

Every one of Joe's posts is there, and every one of Jack's posts is there as well. So what were Jack's terms as you understood them?

[Frank Colver]

Getting myself banned from HG.org accomplishes zero, zip, nada. Nothing to gain by that stupid move. Martyrdom is foolish when nothing is to be gained, think suicide bomber.

To answer your question (as I have done on the phone in the past):

Jack told me that he would consider letting Joe back on the forum if Joe would agree to let pilots opt out of having their name on his ratings register. I passed that information along to Joe and he said he absolutely would not do that. So, end of discussions with Jack.

Personally, I think pilots should be able to have their names taken off the list, if they so wish, but that is for Joe only to decide, which he has done.

So be it,
Frank

[Bob Kuczewski]

Thanks for that clear answer Frank. Please accept my following comment as one engineer to another.

First of all, you can not *know* that speaking out would do absolutely nothing. You can not know that speaking out and being banned wouldn't trigger your buddy "Red" to finally speak up. You can not know that speaking out and being banned wouldn't trigger Michael Grisham to finally say enough is enough and speak out. You can not know that speaking out wouldn't cause Jack to reconsider his own exposure to criticism for banning you. You can not know that no one else would speak up. You can not know every other possible consequence that might come from speaking up.

The reality is that none of us really knows all the many consequences of our actions. The world is far too non-linear and chaotic for any of us to know the millions of outcomes that can be triggered from every little thing that we do. Frank, this is a video that Bill Cummings posted on January 14th, 2019. It's only about 8 minutes long, but if you can't spend that much time, please watch just 12 seconds starting at 1 minute and 32 seconds into the video. You'll hear these very wise words:

"Don't underestimate the power of truth. There is nothing more powerful. Now in order to speak what you might regard as the truth, you have to let go of the outcome."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMj9wsrPE5U


"You have to let go of the outcome". His point is that you shackle your ability to speak the truth when you attempt to predict the effect of that truth on others. First off, as I stated above, you cannot predict the outcome in the first place. And second, by moderating your speech based on how it might be perceived by Jack, you give him the power to control you. That's exactly what has happened. Jack can now literally control what you say or not ... whether it's against any his so-called "rules" or not.

But more importantly than Jack controlling what you can say on his forum, look at how Jack uses his power to control what Joe can say or do ON JOE'S OWN FORUM!!! Here's what you said:

"Jack told me that he would consider letting Joe back on the forum if Joe would agree to let pilots opt out of having their name on his ratings register."

What???   

How megalomaniacal is that? Jack has become so drunk with his own power that he now demands what other people say or do on their own web sites??? Really??? What kind of a monster are you creating in this sport with your obedience to that tyrant?

Now I do argue my case about what other people should and should not do on other forums. In fact, I'm doing it right now. But I have never given anyone an ultimatum of "do this" or "do that" on some other forum or I will ban you. Argument is fine. We're all on an equal footing in an argument. That's been proven many times here on the U.S. Hawks. No one gets banned for disagreeing with the moderator here. But Jack has been handed so much power for so long that he now thinks he can control what other people do with their own property? Are you OK with that?

The point of all of this, and the point of this topic, is to step back and take a look at the big picture. Take a look at what is happening to the sport of hang gliding. We have been fragmented into impotence by USHPA, Jack, and Davis. That's the legacy of their bans and expulsions. It's a legacy of fear and a legacy of impotence. This topic is about the best plan to save the sport of hang gliding. That will require bringing people together in a way that Jack and Davis and USHPA have refused to allow. You can be a leader in that effort or you can continue as you have for the last 3 years. You've done it your way for all this time, and nothing has changed. Maybe it's time for you and Red and Michael and all your other friends to try my suggestion and give Jack an ultimatum. What are you going to lose? Hanggliding.org is dying now anyway. Make it great again or make it irrelevant. But don't just sit around like a bunch of cattle being herded by some guy who just happened to register the most generic name for our sport. Jack doesn't even fly any more. He has no commitment to the sport other than the income that dribbles in from selling ads and selling your souls to Google.

Frank, you've said before that I am beating a dead horse, and maybe you're right. But I have taken Jordan Peterson's advice. I say what I believe is the truth, and I have let go of the outcome. You will do whatever you want, but I will know that I have done my best. Thanks for listening.

Bob

Getting myself banned from HG.org accomplishes zero, zip, nada. Nothing to gain by that stupid move. Martyrdom is foolish when nothing is to be gained, think suicide bomber.

To answer your question (as I have done on the phone in the past):

Jack told me that he would consider letting Joe back on the forum if Joe would agree to let pilots opt out of having their name on his ratings register. I passed that information along to Joe and he said he absolutely would not do that. So, end of discussions with Jack.

Personally, I think pilots should be able to have their names taken off the list, if they so wish, but that is for Joe only to decide, which he has done.

So be it,
Frank

[Bill Cummings]

I avoid the Jack and Davis websites due to the way they ban pilots.
Davis may have left for Facebook or some place like that. I’m not sure.
It’s been about ten years since I went on Jack’s site and I haven’t missed it.

[Frank Colver]

Bob, I have explained my position on this subject to you over and over. You will never accept my viewpoint and I won't accept yours, so it's pointless. I am done with it.

Frank

[Bob Kuczewski]

Frank,

I started this topic on July 6, 2019 so people could discuss what needs to be done to save the sport of hang gliding. So far, we have had contributions of ideas from the following 10 folks (in order of their first post):

Bob Kuczewski
DaveSchy
wingspan33
JoeF
spydermike
Free
Bill Cummings
Chris McKeon
Craig Muhonen
Frank Colver

For example, in my first post, I listed my 4 main suggestions:

1. Hang gliding needs an association dedicated to hang gliding.
2. The hang gliding community cannot continue to allow their communication channels to be controlled by Jack and Davis.
3. Hang gliding must start using the Recreational Use Statutes in every state.
4. Hang gliding must be shared friend to friend as it was in the beginning.

Other people have contributed their own ideas. Some of those discussions have led to minor diversions (as discussions often do), but I think most posts have remained on topic.

Yesterday I offered an amplification of my original second point. I said that there were petty dictators running USHPA, hanggliding.org, and OzReport. I said that those petty dictators had established their own little tribes and were dividing the hang gliding community. I cited Joe Faust's ban from hanggliding.org as a prime example of that division. I stated that the entire hang gliding community stood by in nearly universal silence while this was done. I asserted that these kinds of divisions are harming the sport of hang gliding and creating scattered "tribes" instead of a united and unified community.

Your first post to this topic (just yesterday) started out by saying that I was wrong about Joe Faust being silenced. Here it is:

Let's not forget what Joe Faust was doing when he was silenced.

You were wrong about Joe Faust being silenced. He wasn't silenced, he can post all he wants about his ratings registry on this forum.

He wasn't willing to agree to what Jack wanted in order to let him back on HG.org and that's Joe's personal decision to make. I neither agree nor disagree with Joe's decision.

Nobody is silenced as long as we have these two entirely different forums to choose from. Long live both forums.

Frank

But Frank, your first post right there only amplifies my point about divided tribes (see the entirety of my post). Yes, Joe can post here, but he can't post on other forums to communicate with other pilots. Isn't that my point? Isn't that why I had already written the following:

The petty dictators running USHPA, hanggliding.org, and OzReport have all established their own little tribes. They are dividing the hang gliding community ban by ban, expulsion by expulsion, and no one speaks up about it because they don't want to be next.

That's what's killing the sport of hang gliding. Anyone who steps up to unify the sport in any way is an immediate enemy of the entrenched special interests. They are targeted and destroyed while everyone watches in silence.

My point was that we are being divided by bans and expulsions. Your response that Joe can post on some forums but not others only confirms that we are indeed being divided by bans and expulsions.

After that, we went back to our long-standing debate about whether people should speak out about the injustices that they see on hanggliding.org or not. I say they should speak out, and you say that speaking out is pointless. Bill commented that he avoids the Jack and Davis sites because of the way they ban pilots (thanks for your solidarity Bill).

Frank, you concluded by saying that neither of us will ever accept each other's viewpoints (immediately above). And that's where we are now.

So ...

First of all, I firmly believe that anyone with an open mind can change their views given enough facts and enough time to consider those facts. It may not be very likely in many cases, but that doesn't mean that it can't happen. For example, I never thought we'd be flying at Dockweiler and Point of the Mountain without USHPA membership. As another example, I never thought that Ben Reese and I would be good friends. My expectations were wrong in both cases, and I'm glad I didn't let those expectations stop me. So for me, I don't let predictions of failure dissuade me from doing what I think is right (see Jordan Peterson's quote about letting go of the outcome).

I'm not particularly religious, but I believe that our actions leave wakes in the ocean of history. I believe that those wakes are forever propagated into the future whether we are ever acknowledged for making them or not. I believe it's our duty to stand up for each other as brothers in the sport and as brothers in the cause of justice. I believe that whenever we shirk that duty, it will haunt us and twist us into something less than we should be. I believe that Jack's threats of banning have caused several of my good friends to go down that road of being twisted into submitting to Jack's dominance, and it saddens me. I think they are being harmed by the pressure that Jack places on them, and that saddens me as well. That's where I come from on this particular topic.

Of course, those are my personal views, and I don't expect you to agree with them any time soon ... if ever.

But let's put all of that aside and get back to the original topic of saving the sport of hang gliding. I assert that all of these bannings and expulsions by Jack, Davis, and USHPA are harming the sport. Do you agree or not? Yes or no? That was my original item "2" in my original post. You seem to be resisting that assertion, and that's fine. That's what this part of the discussion is about. If you don't want to discuss it any further, that's fine as well. Feel free to start a topic about anything that you do want to discuss. That's how our forum works.

But as it stands, I remain convinced that the bannings and expulsions are hurting the sport. I remain convinced that the hang gliding community will not grow if we continue to allow our primary communication channels to be controlled by Jack and Davis (although Davis is becoming less and less of a factor all the time). Feel free to try to convince me otherwise. Again, that's how our forum works.

[Bob Kuczewski]

And speaking of Ben Reese, he answered "Col.r" on the Oz Report in the topic that started this topic here on the U.S. Hawks. Col.r wrote:

Lets try to give a snapshot of the replies from this topic.. "Best plan to save the sport of Hanggliding".

1. There are some who deny a problem exists at all.

2. Make HG's more crash-proof.

3. Its a matter of cheaper and more accessible instructors.

4. Reinvent easier and more user friendly entry level gliders.

5. People have less money to spend, its relatively expensive.

6. Potential students learn PG not HG because its easier, cheaper, faster and user friendly.

7. The national organization has not the expertise to identify/solve the problem.

8. Become more self-launching, ie add power.

9. Start your own HG based national organization.

My point here is not to re-hash some very valid points but to show a perspective. Sorry to shrink most replies to just one line snapshots.

In my opinion, ( just let me add, here in Aust and probably world wide, we have the same dilemma.) all replies have varying relevance.

The link to the decline of windsurfing was informative.

I thought instruction was a major factor but Steve Pearson and Christopher and others saw the BIGGER picture which i agree with, call this plan A.

We share our sites and the air with our pg brothers...Work without hostility to figure this out, there's always plan B, which most don't want.

Get your switched on people influencing/managing hangglidings " safe and sustainable community" dilemma with your now much smaller/open-minded? Ushpa board.

We love the feeling of hanggliding, we need students to say this too...Col.

Ben replied by the numbers (with indenting added and special characters removed):

Thanks for summarizing the pages..

Let's go through them and see what is important.

1. There are some who deny a problem exists at all.

The problem does exist but the reasons are many.
The wind surf vs kite boarding history is as col.r says is informative.
However in this example there is a vast difference in the two sports.
The aerial kite has much greater capabilities and power.
It's far more dangerous also.. It fills a unique more adventurous crowd.
People who would also like HG and PG. No doubt it pulls potential
flyers from both our sports..

2. Make HG's more crash-proof.

This adds weight and complexity and costs.
Better to crash proof the pilot and trainees.
Top level instruction or new training techniques are a better option.

3. Its a matter of cheaper and more accessible instructors.

Cheaper as in paying for someone's time is non negotiable.
Instructors in any discipline need a base income.
More accessible instructors is a good idea. It has to be
profitable for instructors, so how can we make it so?

4. Reinvent easier and more user friendly entry level gliders.

We have that already. Gliders are easier and safer to learn on than ever.
Better to promote entry level glider competitions and fun flying events..
This is one way Kite Boarding took off. We need crowd pleasing entertainment
in close proximity to crowds. Watching people try not to whack was good fun..
A version of speed gliding where you fly entry level gliders from one hill to top
land on a lower hill. Come to full stop then launch again for the next lower hill.
3-4 of those and a target landing on the bottom.. Your judged on accuracy,
technique and speed on course... Safety and good from is worth more points
than speed.. Spectators could line up on the course at whatever level they
wanted.. Like downhill Mtn Biking..

5. People have less money to spend, its relatively expensive.

This one point was the reason I posted at all..
Reviewing cost of gear for PG, $2K-$6K for wing. Harness $400-$3K
North Wing HG, $3k-$6K for wing. Harness $400-$3K
Instruments are same cost for each.. Add some cost to install racks for HG
but most sports people have those already. PG's don't last as long as HG's.
HG's can be airworthy for 10 years or more. PG's 2-3 years tops.
That is a 3:1 advantage for HG in cost factors. In 10 years a PG flyer will
own 3 wings while an HG pilot will own one. This works out to relatively same
cost over time for both sports.

6. Potential students learn PG not HG because its easier, cheaper, faster and user friendly.

Easier and faster to learn, yes. User friendly, yes.. Cheaper, it's not. Instructors
cost the same, PG training gear wares out faster and needs replacing sooner.
Hang gliding taught right is very fast, but there is more to learn..

7. The national organization has not the expertise to identify/solve the problem.

They do if they have the will to pursue this as a strategic goal. Pre-Occupation with
a split ORG with most money and interest coming from PG makes this a tough call.

8. Become more self-launching, ie add power.

This is fine for experienced pilots who want launch options and autonomy.
All flying creatures in nature have at least minimal power for take off.
This will have a minimal effect trying to save HG.

9. Start your own HG based national organization.

This is a long and un-certain path if one was to take it.
Better to fix the one we have. Seems less likely since the reform vote.
Enough people must agree it's needed and viable 1st.

Others may disagree with my comments and conclusions so post yours.

B R

The discussion continued and Ben finished a later long post with this insightful statement:

Until HG has its own voice once again, it cannot fully excel..
It's differences are not celebrated and promoted enough..

I agree completely. Joe Faust followed with this:

Excellent analysis, Ben. Thank you.

Conclusion of need for a HG-focused org is spot on.

Joe's "spot on" was spot on. Then Billy Floyd responded:

Lets "pretend" we forget about looking at the USHPA as a club that
is responsible for promoting both sports ; perhaps look at it
as nothing more than an Insurance co, and we HG pilots are
responsible for promoting our own sport ?
Kinda like , I drive a
Toyota, and they do all their own advertisement ; but i have Farmers
as my ins co, and i see their adds on TV as well.

Joe Faust then hit it out of the park:

Bille, you noted:

Lets "pretend" we forget about looking at the USHPA as a club that is responsible for promoting both sports ; perhaps look at it as nothing more than an Insurance co, and we HG pilots are responsible for promoting our own sport?

That might be a nice exercise, but it's not true. There are many auto insurance companies to choose from, but USHPA is the ONLY hang gliding insurance company for US.

For the target of getting to a focused org dedicated just to HG:
Let us not forget that the FIRST reason USHPA listed for expelling Bob Kuczewski:

"1. Creation of at least two national hang gliding organizations with the stated purpose of competing with USHPA, one of which you currently control"

So USHPA is not only a "club", but it's a club that will expel people if they try to create a national HG-focused org.
To honor HG with focus: quit playing footsie with the PG org that is injuring HG, and put all coins and attention in a HG-focused org. Feed what one wants to survive.

Joe correctly pointed out that USHPA is on public record stating that creation of organizations to compete with USHPA is grounds for expulsion from USHPA. Well done Joe!!  

Christopher chimed in by referring to USHPA's recent hiring of a new "Communication Director":

Here's an idea: hire an Association Communication Director to help promote the sport.

Swift responded:

It's a corporate position in a company that doesn't make anything but corporate positions at corporation salaries.
I don't know what she can do with what she has to work with. I don't envy her job. I hope accolades are not what she took the job for.
There's only so much polish you can put on that turd.
Free advertisement for private, for profit instruction? What else is there?
USHPA is a corporation without a product.
It has sold their only asset/property.
Now they are lean and mean with no product but hot air.
They can't or won't teach anyone to fly hang gliders.

There's the answer. Create a non profit teaching system.
The money spent on corporate salaries would better be spent on a central teaching center.
One new pilot that otherwise will not go through the typical process to learn to fly may be all it takes to change the future prospects for the survival of hang gliding as we know it.
Reducing the cost and barriers to learning will bring in more prospects for saving hg from withering on the vine.

The corporate lawyer isn't ever going to expose the corporation/jobsecurity to the liability of instruction but they can donate to another non profit to do the work they won't do.
We could all donate. Work, equipment, infrastructure. Choosing the right people to run it and pay the people doing the work.

One millionaire could step up and fund this now. I think there are many.. Any volunteers to be the hero that helps save hang gliding for future generations?

Oh, that's right.. human contribution of .0024% of total atmospheric CO2 is going to kill us all within 12 years... what was I thinking?
Hang gliding people make a lot of CO2 compared to the proposed goal of 0%.
How is this going to work? Those that believe our tiny contribution of CO2 controls the weather will have to explain how their plan to save the world would ever work.
If we go third world in industrialized countries, maybe we could cut human contribution in half? Millions will die but maybe our contribution to the total atmospheric mix would then be .0012?

Third world doesn't have Land Cruisers with hang glider racks except for the Al Gore CO2 bosses. And maybe Davis?
It sure won't be me. Or likely you, either.
This is a conundrum. Do we save hang gliding or are we going to save the world?

The discussions meandered a bit (as they do on forums - see my earlier post), but Michael Grisham came up with a good idea:

There is a great harvest in many lessons to be learned in the Steve Harvey - Trump Video as applied to promoting Hang Gliding.

Watch the video and glean.

Since you brought up Trump . . .

Steve Harvey on the Donald Trump Visit

Yes, we need instructors, but we also need training hills. Cities and counties build skate board parks. Why shouldn't those Park and Recreation Departments build Hang Gliding training hills?

This is building the "Field of Dreams" for future aviators in their communities for them.

Google Search: "grant money for parks and recreation."

There is money and landscape out there. Offer something, an aviation program for the community.

Nathan offered an example of how his local sailplane organization promotes their sport:

My local gliderport has this setup to help foster new pilots and also mitigates the cost by having them work in the field all while developing character, knowledge, and advanced skill sets oh and did I mention they also discount the tow rates to help them get more airtime and they don't really charge per say for lessons just for tows for anyone wanting to solo they will train as long as you pay club fees.

... somehow gliderports are making dreams come true so there may be a lesson to be learned and transferred over to the sport of hang-gliding. Believe me if I had the option for their program to start at 14 by working at the airpark for lessons I would have solo'd when I was 14 instead of just doing a handful of tandems from 13-15 and then soloing finally when 19. Heck I could have brought people with me to help work at the airpark and build skills, but no kid has 2k to blow on getting certified. The only reason I even bothered to pull the trigger so young instead of waiting till after college is because good old Arlan Birkett at Hang-glide Chicago gave you a student discount if you asked nicely,(I also regularly cleaned the place, bathrooms, etc. and did some work around the place for extra tows) and also free usage of the falcons after you solo'd through him, something which would also possibly entice those who are on the fence about starting a program. Knowing you can just fly with the schools gear free of charge for a year before you buy a more advanced glider is a real nice way to also spread out the sting of 2k in lessons then a gear purchase in the same year for those on a tight budget. I think there is a market for both the young and the old, gear is better than ever and safer than ever all we need to do is start programs to entice people to start young or even older once they as you put it have the money now and maybe even time.

Swift confirmed that Nathan's post was on target:

This is in exactly in line with my thoughts on growing the sport.
Thanks for bringing it up Nathan.

Joe Faust offered a nice thought quoting Ben Reese from another topic:

Woke from a nap thinking this on-topic possible:

Tiki goes all out to restore BobK to USHPA and achieves such.

=================================
Then I read Ben Reese:

I felt Tiki was using the very words Bob K. was regarding open meetings
and accountability of the BOD.

I think she sees the corruption of exclusion that is engulfing even her.

My comments on righting a wrong was a direct reference to Bob K.'s
Life long expulsion.

Billy Floyd took a shot at Joe for even mentioning me:

@ Joe Faust

BobK was Banned from this forum for GOOD reason ; please
quit shoving that Schmucks teachings, down our throat !

Bille

I would bet that Billy Floyd doesn't even know why I was banned from the Oz Forum. It's an interesting coincidence that I was trying to engage Bill Helliwell in a discussion about open voting on the USHPA Board (see Joe's reference to Ben's comments about "open meetings and accountability of the board") during the USHPA Region 3 recall election of 2010. Davis kept moving my posts so Bill Helliwell would appear unchallenged. When I confronted Davis on the moves, he banned me instantly.

In addition to Billy, Christopher also kept derailing the discussion by continually attacking Swift:

You don't really care about the topic, easily identified from the lead post; you don't really care about other participants in this thread- either demonstrated in this twisted excuse for your behavior. Insincere, disrespectful, anonymous agent of digression- just another faceless internet troll.

The only reason I can imagine why Davis didn't ban you long ago is pity; consider rewarding that kindness with a little bit of self restraint. Stop jacking threads with unrelated concerns and divisive national politics.

Swift replied:

Christopher, you must be playing to the ignorant but I don't think its working. You are the troll here. Feel free to contribute positively but please stop disrupting the flow.
If you believe that Davis should ban me, please make your case, with some facts to back it up, in another thread instead of hijacking this one.
Your gaslighting agenda has taken the impetus from me as it was waning already. My plan to save the sport was pretty much too late for this season to implement so why don't you just carry on with the best of your plans to save the sport?

I can bow out of this thread for now and instead prepare my defense for your scathing proposal to ban me in that specific thread.
See you there?

Ben Reese addressed Joe's comment from the other topic with two consecutive posts:

Joe,

https://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=10

The above link is where your response and opinion belongs.
Why did you drag it here?

I am not picking on you, just trying to be helpful regarding Bob K's Expulsion by USHPA.
I don't think this dragging of posts across subjects helps Bob..
I can't speak to his banning here, that is not my goal..
My goal is to get his USHPA expulsion re-evaluated with factual information...

B R

Bille,

Joe should not have drug this topic to this thread.
His comments are right on for the Thread that Tiki commented on below and quoting her..

  https://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60346

Tiki writes:
I have spent an ungodly amount of time on this today arguing my point of the importance
of transparency and member participation ... I thought this would be a no brainer.

These very same words were spoken to the BOD when Bob K. was a regional director.
Literally the same level of passion and effort.. I have proof in writing..
They were spoken by Bob K. Hard to believe but it is true..

This is what Joe is referring to and the passion he shares is based on a grave mis-justice..
He BK was expelled for this very same effort Tiki is banging heads with..

Why do you think I reversed my opinion about BK's expulsion?

I have posted this evidence and argued on it, even swaying you with your public comments questioning the validity of BK's expulsion..

I am confident that over time USHPA will continue to make decisions excluding movers and shakers just like Tiki.. Especially those who promote HG..

I don't want to be right about this , but it's happening now!

Your reference to Davis banning BK from OZ is a very different thing... Not related.

I have been banned from HG.Org, should I be expelled from USHPA..

Yea, Blind thinks so, but I am not asking him..

Davis may yet ban me since I have been warned several times..

Different issues...

Please be careful with your burn BK convictions, you risk reversing yourself as I have.

But what is right is right day or night..

It's been night for BK more than 4 years now..

BK is not our savior and he is not our nemesis either..

The best analogy I can impart is:

He is an abandoned soldier.

I am either a complete Whack, or I know something you don't?

If you think I am a whack, then feel sorry for me and Joe and all the others who have been exposed to a contagious disease...

But if it is gnawing at you how I and others have been informed by facts enough to go public on this reversal, then please do investigate.. Talk to Bob yourself..

Happy to put in touch..

Anyway he is not a hugger so nothing weird will happen...

B R

Thanks for the defense Ben.

Unfortunately, a number of off-topic trolls kept pushing their climate agenda into Swift's original "Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding" topic.

Jim Gaar chimed in responding to Ben Reese's comments about being banned from HG.Org. Jim hasn't been happy with Warren's criticisms here on the U.S. Hawks, so Jim wrote:

I have been banned from HG.Org, should I be expelled from USHPA..

Yea, Blind thinks so, but I am not asking him..

You can post and should post damn near anywhere you want. I never said ..."ban him..." anywhere. I'm open to all sorts of lies/facts/BS/opinions/stories.

I'm quit mature and intelligent enough to see through all the mudslinging and misinformation. You are a case for sure.
I'll keep doing my part. You do yours. You might be surprised who supports BK to a point. But not as a blog moderator, as he allows
lies, half truths and and complete idiots to post unmoderated on the TH's forum. He even defends that s***! That's what knocks him completely out of the sky for me...

Reinstate him? As far as a USHPA member, I have little argument against that point. Is he a sh**ty moderator. IMHO you bet.

For the record, Jim has been invited to address Warren's concerns on the U.S. Hawks many times. In fact, Warren himself has asked Jim to come here and debate the issues. I haven't heard both sides in that argument, but Warren's willingness to debate and Jim's unwillingness are not helpful to Jim's case.

In any event, the climate change debate continued, and Davis buried the entire discussion in the basement. Swift, who started the topic with best intentions, replied:

Did we get sent to the sewer/basement because of you cussing about BK, or because you just wanted to shut things down? That's your unofficial job, right?
Or, was it on Christopher's idea to ban me for being insincere? (in his opinion)
Are we allowed to speak freely here or not?

Swift went on to complain about the burial of the topic:

You used coarse language to say Bob K. wouldn't censor someone for saying bad things about you. I think that is a good thing. He doesn't censor your ability to counter that kind of information does he? What stops you from doing that?
...
Well I hope you are sorry for cussing off topic and shutting the flow down on saving the sport.

That's when Davis Straub killed the discussion altogether:

Enough with the personal attacks. The thread is closed.

And so ended the discussion of the "Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding" on the Oz Forum. The discussion ran just over a month from June 22nd, 2019 until July 30th, 2019. It ended up with just about 100 total posts (most of which have not been repeated here). We started reporting on the topic on July 6th, 2019, and as I said in my first post:

The hang gliding community cannot continue to allow their communication channels to be controlled by Jack and Davis.

The truth of that statement became quite clear 24 days later when Davis Straub locked the topic that was intended to save the sport of hang gliding.

[Craig Muhonen]

"This is how we save HG. With 100% focus even with smaller numbers HG
will gain traction as the gateway to aviation, not just an adrenalin sport". Ben Reese

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H0, Craig Muhonen with respect, writes;
LLoyds of London, backed Hang Gliding 100% in the early 70's with insurance policies for "Air Framed, Flex Winged, Hang Gliders", and their dedicated pilots. This same dedication needs to be brought back to LLoyds, so a new and improved policy can be written again for
"Air Framed Glider Aircraft", and then a new marketing campaign using this "better insurance" and other tools to offer an alternative to USHPA, where state regulations could get on board. I don't believe they (LLoyds) would have ever written a policy for Paragliders given the abominable safety record, (but USHPA would) and if they did, well the monthly costs would have been quite high. Paragliders were allowed to sign on
(sad to say) in 1989, to the original insurance policy of the Hang Gliding community, TAF in this case, but what's done is done.
Who are the Hang Glider Pilots to go back to LLoyds? This needs to be done sooner than later because Air Framed, Flex Winged Glider Aircraft (Hang Gliders) are the simplest, most elegant, and most profound, "gateway to aviation", and their training regiments are proven, proven, proven.(thank you John Heiney and others like you), and Paragliding (the marketing) is co-opting Hang Gliding, over and over and over again, and getting away with it, due to the lack of organization (and marketing) amongst the small (now) Hang Gliding community.
The tens of thousands of words on the forums are all well and good, but opinions don't write contracts or make websites.

David had a plan,
"CLUBS UNITE"

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