[yaro]

just signed up for this after conversation with Bob,well I hope I am not stepping on anybody's toes,just want to feel the general idea about those two sports living in one household,/hangliding and paragliding/
happy landings
Yaro

[Bob Kuczewski]

just signed up for this after conversation with Bob,well I hope I am not stepping on anybody's toes,just want to feel the general idea about those two sports living in one household,/hangliding and paragliding/
happy landings
Yaro

Hi Yaro,

Thanks for the phone call and thanks for signing up with the US Hawks!!

It's probably a good time to share my thoughts on paragliding, and I thank you for the opportunity...

First of all, I love both forms of flight. I'm an H4/P4 pilot, and I probably have more PG hours than HG hours (mostly in the smooth air at Torrey). Given my choice, I prefer the way a hang glider feels when I fly it, and I'd much rather be in a hang glider when the air starts getting rowdy. But if paragliding had been under attack at Torrey by a bullying HG business, then I'd have probably started the Torrey Hawks Paragliding Club.

So my main goal (personally) is fairness to both sports so people can choose to fly whatever they want.

Now in the current environment, between the two sports, I see that hang gliding seems to be in the most danger of being lost. Just look at the new ratings in the USHPA magazine each month. So as the sport of hang gliding decreases, I see USHPA "following the money" and giving more and more support to the larger group (paragliding). Now things might not be so bad if USHPA had a permanent obligation to treat each sport fairly, but I haven't seen it. In fact, USHPA has special committees for various sub-specialties (like the Towing Committee), but they don't have special committees for the two sports themselves (hang gliding and paragliding). I think if they did that - with each committee being dedicated to fairness for each sport - then they might stand a chance of remaining unbiased. But if all Directors are simply elected by their constituents, and the population continues to shift, then at some point most all of the Directors may be PG-only pilots. Given that likely scenario, I feel it is prudent for the hang gliding community to begin forming itself into visible organizations which will, as a minimum, lobby for fair support of hang gliding.

Of course, the world has more than one dimension (wing type). People also have differences in philosophies, and that's another difference between the US Hawks and USHPA (and possibly the HGAA). The US Hawks is based on fairness and openness. The whole "secret ballot" issue at USHPA is a prime example of what we will NOT do at the US Hawks. There are many more philosophical differences which I hope will attract both hang gliding and paragliding pilots to the US Hawks.

OK, having said all of that, where does that leave the sport of paragliding (and paragliding pilots) with respect to the US Hawks? Here's my current thinking and it may change...

Right now, I think paraglider pilots might want to join the US Hawks to demonstrate their support of our philosophy of governance - openness and fairness. After all, there is no cost, so there's not much commitment to make that statement. Additionally, if our membership grows large enough, I would like to see the US Hawks provide insurance of some sort, and I would have no problem including paraglider pilots on that policy if it makes sense financially. However, I will always want the US Hawks (or some dedicated branch of the US Hawks) to maintain a primary focus on protecting the sport of hang gliding. I could easily imagine two divisions with separate Directors elected by separate members (based on their HG/PG ratings). The two divisions might share insurance costs while maintaining their own training programs (with as much commonality as practical). But that's a long way off. For right now, I'd like to focus on ensuring that the sport of hang gliding is healthy and active. And at the same time, if we can do anything to support the paragliding members who support the US Hawks, then we'll try to accomplish that as well.

So the bottom line is that paragliding pilots might want to support the US Hawks because:

1. We provide competition in the market helping USHPA to be more responsive.
2. You want to support a more open and fair national organization.
3. The Hawks might eventually get insurance which might also cover paragliding.
4. It's free, and we're nice people.

One other thought. There's nothing to stop someone (possibly yourself) from launching a paragliding only organization. I can tell you that if I liked the feeling and direction of that organization, I'd join it myself. I like choices in the marketplace, and I'll do what I can to support that.

So, was that a good enough answer to have you stick around for a while? Heck, maybe we could convert you to being biwingual.

Thanks for calling and thanks for posting here. I look forward to your response.

Bob Kuczewski

P.S. If you check out the "Wednesday FLYDAY CCS" topic, you'll see pictures of Dennis kiting MY paraglider. So the US Hawks are not anti-paragliding. We just want to make sure that hang gliding is fairly treated and fairly represented.

[Dennis]

Hi Yaro! Welcome to the Hawks!

No worries on the PG/HG living in the same house as it were. I'm into both HG's and PG's, sure, a few of my HG friends tease me about going over to "The Dark Side", but, really, the club I fly, many pilots are biwingal. No biggie.

Welcome to the fold, bring more of your PG friends here! The fact that we're all pilots is cool enough, no pressure on what kind of wing you fly.

-Dennis

[JoeF]

United States Paragliding Association USPA (future name of extant org ?)

United States ParagGiding Association USPGA (future name of extant org?)

Will history revert to USHGA with a friendly affiliation branching to USPA or USPGA?

Split days on busy slope-soaring sites?

Magazine chock full of frame-controlled hang glider concerns which are considerable?

Different magazine chock full of string-controlled soft gliding canopy concerns which are considerable?

[Chris McKeon]

Well the Way I see it, that is the relationship between Paragliders are these points. for one look at Pilots who in ordrer to take to the Sky. In order to fly up in the Sky. They have something that I do not know how to call it? I mean Men and Women Who choose have in spades something that I am in short supply. I call what You Guys also know is True. Paraglider Pilots have an abundance of Courage, They have plenty amounts of Courage.Nerve, Guts. I do not know how else what Paraglider Pilots have. I am so impressed that Paraglider Pilots in order to Fly,Who choose to Risk, literally everything, just to achieve Flight. I for one am Blown away By These Men and Women. are really somrthing else.

THE HANG GLIDER PARAGLIDER RELATIONSHIP:

I look back to the Early 1980's as the time when the Sport of Paragliding was working to get it's self off the Ground. Well We Hang Glider Pilots not only accepted then into our Organization. We ended up giving away our beloved USHGA to them.. I believe that what Goes around, comes around. Some Day Paraglider Pilots will do fwhar we Hang Glider Pilots did for them.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Thanks for posting here, Chris. It's always good to revisit these topics.

Paraglider Pilots have an abundance of Courage

Actually, I think it's the opposite. Paragliding feels safer when you start. Heck, you've already got your "parachute" out, right? And you've got a spare parachute to back it up. Everything happens much slower, and you're always in a position to land either on your feet or on your butt (just lift your feet and skid in on your tail).

I think most people who get started in paragliding don't realize the danger. They start flying in smooth coastal air where nothing bad ever seems to happen to their wing. Maybe they get a little bubble once in a while when a tandem passes in front of them. That's about as scary as it gets. So I think you're wrong about "courage". I think "ignorance" would be a better word for the large majority of beginners. And many of them will drop out after their first big scare or minor injury. But in some cases, they won't realize the danger until it takes their lives.

So there are very real dangers in paragliding. Sadly, these are often not sufficiently explained to beginners in order to get them "hooked". But there are also very real dangers in hang gliding. Let's not kid ourselves that hang gliding doesn't involve risk. The difference, and I think this has been said many times by Rick Masters and others, is that the risk in hang gliding is more under our control. That's because (as Joe Greblo used to tell me) a hang glider is a more air-worthy aircraft than a paraglider. But not infinitely so. The earth's atmosphere is capable of conditions that can injure or kill a person flying either aircraft. It's just that hang gliders have a slightly wider range of conditions that they can tolerate, and slightly is enough to make a big difference in many common situations. People who stay within their limits (and even well within thier limits) will have a much better safety record than those who push those limits. That's true of either sport.

We ended up giving away our beloved USHGA to them.. I believe that what Goes around, comes around. Some Day Paraglider Pilots will do fwhar we Hang Glider Pilots did for them.

I think you're dreaming. There are certainly many subcultures in the sport of paragliding, and some of them get along well with hang gliding. But a significant portion of the paragliding population is hostile and even belligerent toward hang gliding. They see hang gliding as a dying sport, and many of them like it that way. There is also a generational and cultural friction as hang glider pilots tend to be older, more independent, and more naturally rural. Paraglider pilots tend to be younger, very cliquey, and more naturally urban. The small pack of the paraglider fits their urban transportation and lifestyle, especially when compared to the larger vehicles preferred for hang gliding. They're more likely to think they're saving the planet and that hang glider pilots are killing it.

Sadly, the urban cliquey nature of paragliding pilots is better adapted to modern life than the rugged individualists of hang gliding. They are better able to form effective forces to protect their sport. Just look at the social media platforms. Go visit paraglidingforum.com right now. Go ahead. Here's their list of current active topics just for the past few hours:

PGForum_2023_03_13.png (163.05 KiB) Viewed 803 times

Those are just the topics. Each of those topics may have many posts. Look at the dates and times of those posts. That's just a few hours of posts. That's an active and healthy community.

Then look at what we have. We have people like Jack Axaopoulos slicing up our population. We have people like Davis Straub slicing up our population. We have people who get their noses bent out of joint because someone called them out on an issue so they go run and hide. Rather than standing together and working together as a team, they scatter and fragment us. The U.S. Hawks was created to be a place for ALL of hang gliding to work together. The U.S. Hawks was USHPA's greatest fear, but USHPA was very effective at suppressing us because hang gliding was fragmented and paragliding was not. That's why USHPA refused to renew the Torrey Hawks' Chapter status. They wanted to destroy the sense of hang gliding community that was reforming at Torrey. That's why they sent their lawyer to collaborate with the lawyer suing me. That's why they won't publicize any of the good works the U.S. Hawks does in the community.

In short, hang gliding has been sliced and diced and scattered like ashes into the wind. And it's the fault of everyone who either participated in the slicing or stood silently by and said nothing.

[Chris McKeon]

Check these thoughts By Me. I have been involved with doing Free-Flight since 1990. I am just like all of You, I am In Love with Flying. I mean I am a Pilot who is committed to My Beloved Predator 158. The way I see My Predator, well right up till I had My last flight. I mean for Me, I am ta lKING ABOUT THE dESIGN OF THE wING. i HAD SO MUCH Success Flying My 158 PREDATOR. There are a couple of things that I still have Yet to accomplish while Flying My Predator. I want I still need to have a Flight where I will Fly a Hundred Miles in under Four Hours. I want to do an One Hundred sand Eighty Degree Wing over.

MY LAST FLIGHT: The day of My last Flight I weighed almost three Hundred Pounds. Well at the end of that Flight I took the imitative in getting My Weight in check. Yes I did Phase one of the "POUND DIET" Well while in the Hospital, My Body Weight plummeted. Body weight dropped from te Day of My Crash which was getting too close to Three Hundred Pounds, to where Today March 13 2023, I now weigh Thirty Percent less than I did on March 2010. Yes You can not argue with success!

[Craig Muhonen]

Tucker Gott You Fooled.
This is what we got for a government now.
They are running it on propose, by filming "Illegal exhibitions" for millions of "likes",
while completely covering up (and getting away with it) the devastation of ALL the families who have lost loved ones while paragliding.
The untold videos of collapsing canopies and death are hard to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un32EyGRHBA&t=58s


VOTE!

[Chris McKeon]

Flying a Hang Glider, Flying a Paraglider, Flying an F-104. They nay all Fly each having different ceilings and speeds. Nut what they all share in common is that Each time a Pilot launches one of these Airships into the Air. The person who is controo;ong say the Stick and rudder, ot are they called shroud lines? in either Aitcraft the Person is Flying. Or as john said "Breaking free of this Gravity secured penitently that everyone of reside in. Regarding Flying Hang Glider: Yeager said it Best; "That's the flyingest Flying there is.

My flying Friends who, most all of which fly hang Gliders. we look at Flying Para Gliders for which it is. An very high risk way to achieve an Air Gassam.

[Craig Muhonen]

"Air Gassam" That's good Chris.

I think this guy and his followers (by the millions), Gott "Air Gassam" big time, GAG.
and loves life on the razors edge.

But flying an airframe of any kind is WAY better than that, because most of the time your wing will fly you "ALL" the way to a crash landing,
instead of giving up half way and killing you.

"a One in a billion chance" , but this pilot took his airframe and flew all the way, saving their lives.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/HLwyokyefco