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Re: Censorship at Funston?

Postby JoeF » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:12 pm

FUNSTONPOSTonDraftMOU.JPG
FUNSTONPOSTonDraftMOU.JPG (67.13 KiB) Viewed 141 times

For the record I just posted again after some deletion of a first effort; no notification about the first deletion was given to me
So, I am trying again. This is a screen print of a post.
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Re: Censorship at Funston?

Postby JoeF » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:34 pm

Notice the dates of my regular acceptance in the Funston forum: Monday, Aug 24, 2015.
How many posts in 3 years: 4 posts.
They just erased all my posts; one post was a half line compliment to Big Bird for his great day with pioneer. Super easy; they erase that. They just banned me in the last week. No notice. No discussion. No email. No note in the forum. See above what they erase.

Hereon I will show a following post while I was apparently still totally able to be a part of discussions:
In their long thread on amendments I posted the shown:
FUNSTONpostBylawAmendmentProposed.JPG
FUNSTONpostBylawAmendmentProposed.JPG (44.72 KiB) Viewed 108 times


And then I posted a replacement for what they apparently accidentally deleted (as I had zero notices from anyone):
FUNSTONPOSTonDraftMOU.JPG
FUNSTONPOSTonDraftMOU.JPG (67.13 KiB) Viewed 108 times


COMBINE their censorship practices with their practice of EXCLUDING individual skilled HG pilots from using a park DEDICATED for hang gliding by supposedly citizens of the US and one gets the feeling, at least I do, that there is one or more un-American actors at the site. My posting should have been a signal to them to work the whole deal out inside the forum; instead they may be forcing the taking of the issue outside the forum into a more public arena. That club has a position that should be changed at its core. There is no fair way for that club to be excluding individual visitors on the count of forcibly having the visitor join a very bad-acting club and USHPA; the USHPA expelled a safe excellent pilot who worked for justice, equity, and transparency; that USHPA gave about 10 reasons for expelling and two of the top were ripping deeply at the fabric of American life: they used a bully pulpit to slander the member, to press in a strong way to not testify rightly in a court of law, and to not play in forming associations of people. The effect of the expulsion was to give bully position to the club at Funston that requires membership in the USHPA, a private bad-acting corporation that has no right when all comes to light to exclude individuals who are non-members from using their proven skills in HG to fly equity at the park. The GGNRA and NPS and perhaps the Secretary of Agriculture and others won't look well upon the EXCLUDING and the COERCION that is going on.

Funston, tear down those walls! Let's get the matter open without going fully public on the matter. Logan, BobK, and others, and now myself may give you a bit more time to work for an opening to non-USHPA members.... individual US citizens who are aiming to fly at the park without USHPA membership en masse one day. Cooperate and discuss and work inside our sport community rather than stealthily ban discussion. You need not be so afraid of change. The change to simply having a park for hang gliding without having to join an un-American acting private corporation is coming to Funston; how do you want that change to take place?

Looks like my screen print is a repeat. I may not have taken a screen print of my repeated post as told in this post; I will look harder. I might not have taken a screen print; but the matter was a repeat of suggested draft MOU that could be worked over by anyone interested. At least someone in power at Funston was severely not interested in working on a MOU that would let Funston not exclude good HG pilots from launching off the park. The permit SUP is flawed; the workers at GGNRA missed seeing the flaws, it seems. FFF club, help cure the matter cooperatively, not by wall building and shutting of doors. Play what games you might withe your club members, but avoid the awful un-American EXCLUDING CONDUCT, for that may come back to take the run out from even your club. Let your members dance to your bylaws. But do not force the rest of the United States population to be members of a third party bad-acting national org. I am a California citizen, a good HG pilot for the realm I fly; there are windows of conditions at Funston that fit me; I cannot in good conscience join a private corporation that acts as USHPA; the GGNRA is not to sell away assets of public lands in such a way that would exclude me from flying at Funston while not being a card carrier of my USHPA#5 current. Open up your forum and let's all work out a plan to get things changed.

================================
I found one of the Aug. 24,2015 posts that was deleted:
FUNSTONforumDELETIONwithoutnotice.JPG
FUNSTONforumDELETIONwithoutnotice.JPG (53.98 KiB) Viewed 106 times


================================
I pay California State taxes.
I pay Federal income taxes.
I pay property tax for some California property.
I work in California.
I pay California sales taxes.
I have flown hang gliders for about 50 years.
I graduated from California State University at Los Angeles
I was a teacher of mathematics in California public schools.
I co-founded the second USHGA that morphed to the un-American-acting USHPA.
I founded the first USHGA in partners with Bob Luthardt.
I founded the international hang gliding association Self-Soar Association spurring clubs and associations to form to serve hang gliding.
My HG safety record is good.
I instructed hundreds of people in hang gliding to result in their enjoyment of safe hang gliding.
I am healthy and ready to recreate at Funston to do a little bit of hang gliding.
I cannot in good conscience join USHPA on very many counts, some, in my calculation, at the level of murder by neglect and commerce collusion regarding PG matters, some on protecting the rights of citizens not to be bullied out of our court system as fair witness. And that HG energies are feeding the PG machine in that org.
I represented the USA to the world as a USA Olympian doing flying through the air via MHG ... high jumping.
I volunteer to clean parks and lands in the US.
I vote.
I raised three good citizens as my children who are helping to make America as good as she might be.
I clean hang gliding sights and am docent to visitors. I would leave Funston site cleaner than I will find it, I promise.
Yet, as an individual walker on the park carrying my big umbrella, some private land-grabber is going to call the police on me because I refuse to become a member of a private corporation that is injuring the sport of hang gliding in many ways. Something is off at that scene. The call to the police should not be made; and the police should get informed and not arrive for your call, FFF club. Share the road; get in line, wait your turn; FFF members, take turns with other US citizens.

And the GGNRA has seen that we the people have a bluff and air asset fit for hang gliding; GGNRA has a mandate to let us use our land in a responsible manner; included in that responsible manner is that there should not be inequity of use and unfair exclusion of individual citizens from recreating individually on opened areas. FFF club, tear down the unnecessary wall, step back some from excluding non-members.


================================
Yes, it does seem that there is a profound censorship in the FFF Funston Forum situation; it parallels the attitude of exclusion that contradicts the mandates of GGRA and NPA who are managing our lands. GGRA and NPA should follow what the state of Utah has done at POTM. Let the individual citizen walk and jump with an umbrella where such is permitted at all.

If a citizen was well informed of the actions of the leaders of Fellow Feathers of Fort Funston, then that citizen would have good reason not to join that club. Indeed, that club probably should just stop having a flawed SUP and let the good spirits of regular citizens volunteer to keep the park clean and safe. Post traffic rules. Let pilots be pilots; they can figure it all out without FFFF. Or FFFF, just cooperate with the Faction of Fellow Fine Flyers who will visit as individual pilots; we can take turns stepping off the bluff into the sky; get in line, take your turn; don't cut in line; be of good spirit.
Last edited by JoeF on Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:34 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Censorship at Funston?

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:21 am

As far as I know, Steve Rodrigues has absolute control of that forum. He played the same game that Jack played with you Joe. He baited, and then when the bait wasn't taken, he banned anyway.

How in the world did the sport of hang gliding get so screwed up?!?
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Re: Censorship at Funston?

Postby Rick Masters » Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:36 am

When a revolution gains traction:
Image
:srofl:    :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl:
    U      S      H      G      R      S
    A REVOLUTIONARY IDEA IN HANG GLIDING
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Re: Censorship at Funston?

Postby JoeF » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:54 pm

Well,
I received:
Joe..
Please stop harassing our club, you don't seem to have the brain cells to understand simple rules for our BB forum and this is why you were banned for life.. There will be no reconsideration whatsoever...



My reply in email to the FFFFswriter wrote:Nice Rob.
What rule was broken. No one said anything. I am polite. I was only
looking at ideas. I've been mulling over for years to join the club.
I am waiting for the club to be attractive enough to join. So, I
explore the club and converse as a fellow pilot. No harassing. It
is not harassing to follow the club's amendment process. It is not
harassing to try to have the club have a tenable faithfulness to GGNRA
and NPS and their management mandates.

How you seem to be comfortable with having a US citizen non-member
arrive and be blocked by FFFF for being a non-member is puzzeling.
Such arrangement is not going to last. It would be best to open
discussion and work for a change within our sport.
I encourage you to poke Steve R. to reinstalled the four or five
deleted posts and also reinstalled my posting status. The wall
building and blocking is not to FFFF best interest nor best interest
of recreational hang gliding. The challenge is not going to
disappear; best to open discussions and work committees to get changes
made so that non-members take turns with members at the public park.

FFFF has a flawed relationship with public land. You could help
correct the matter.

Today, you cut a short conversation at your FB messaging: here is what
I posted just as you made a statement and thus my answer:
==> USHGRS is not associated with any association or club. USHGRS has not
rules or membership joining. BobK has his USHawiks going. USHGRS is
simply certifying ratings and stating them. Thanks for discussing,
=========================================================

Wishing all the best,
Joe Faust
teaming for equity in recreational hang gliding


So far: Banned now from CSS, FFFF, Jack's place, and paraglidingforum. CSS banned Big Bird and BobK. FFFF banned BobK.
I did not break forum rules. Staying polite does not seem to help. It is the resistance to suggestions that seems to get some in power positions to decide to avoid dialogue and just block the approach of possible change through idea exploration. What else might they be blocking; perhaps blocking information flowing to GGNRA and NPS that might jeopardize standings. Staying in the shadows blocking conversations may undermine FFFF and CSS, or any club that tries to hold onto what is not equitably theirs.
Not banned from the other thousands of points of communication available or modes of communication: postal mail, FAX, person visits, emails to all who stay open to thinking openly, meetings, etc.
Four short posts in three years at FFFF has seemed to be far too much for them to followup on; no, erase the posts and go on as if nothing existed. The ideas and relations still are present with life. Does FFFF want the discussion to go to GGNRA, NPS, US Dept. of Agriculture, Congress, California politicos, etc.? It remains a hope in me that FFFF will change from blocking tactics in forum and at public park.
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Re: Censorship at Funston?

Postby JoeF » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:42 pm

What keeps tugging me:
Who in PG and HG is making money using Funston while the fort blocks non-member recreational hang gliding?
Mandates from NPS and GGNRA point to highly prizing the individual recreating visitor; commerce is not to push aside the millions of potential visitors. So, how much are private corporations and sole proprietorships using the Funston park compared to excluding inequitably visiting non-third-party-corporation hang glider pilots? Exchanging funds off the park's premises may seem to skirt the challenge. But when it comes down to behind-doors stealth ending up in land grabbing from public lands to the exclusion of said visitors, then the NPS and GGNRA and US Dept. of Agriculture, etc. ought to sharpen their hearing, seeing, reading, and understanding.
:idea: :idea: :idea: :?: :?: :?:
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Re: Censorship at Funston?

Postby JoeF » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:46 pm

Just in from the FFFF camp:

Joe,
You are wasting your time....
By all means... Waste as much as you like,
your attempt at opening up FF to flying without USHPA will never happen,
it's a ridiculous idea and the majority of our club agrees with this... And so does the GGNRA.

Get that through your head and stop being so annoying..

====================================================================
1. I wonder what that non-majority thinks? Could we ever trust to hear from that non-majority minority?
2. The GGNRA is very busy; it has a hard time facing the FFFF SUP renewals, etc. They have hears a huge one-sided story. Wait until Logan and others get the full other side of the story to the GGNRA and NPS and more. Best to open transparent discussion now locally inside our sport before the minority has its full stay. Abuse of FFFF present power won't win the long term balancing act. The minority is not going to just sit back and shut up.
3. When they hear clearly rehearsal of their own mandates and look at the facts within the bad-acting USHPA, there will be change coming to Fort Funston flying situation. And when GGNRA and NPS and US Dept. of Agriculture realize that they let slippage occur over their congressional mandates with regard to FFFF and the effective exclusion of individual recreationists. That FFFF would grab hold of such slippage to the loss of flying of fellow sport hang gliding pilots is repugnant; FFFF could change course and save itself or stay stuck excluding people from public park and thus ending with a canceled FFFF from FF. And endgame may be: no FFFF at FF, and only open flight like open dog walking, open surfing, open jogging, open jumping, open dancing, open eating, open talking, open umbrella walking, open kite flying (????), open checkers playing, open glider tossing (???), open balloon holding, open sight seeing, open bicycling, and more open. FFFF is doomed at FF if it keeps its exclusionary push guarded by blocked communications and deletion of information, ..


In email i added to a FFFF big guy:
Mr FFFF leader,
​You are in a position to form the better future of inclusion which would more closely fulfill the mandates of congress over public land use. The FFFF deal in place is flawed; the flaws may be addressed and mended; or the flaw may crack the deal. Upon cracking, FFFF may end up being disallowed from any pressing over visitors. Let simple safety posted guides ride. No FFFF needed. And if FFFF does not change its course, then look to the possibility of "No FFFF at FF".
Best, Joe ​

============================================
The same Mr. FFFF guy in 2015 was facing some PGer:
PGuser to FFFF big guys wrote:- Keep screwing things up by pissing off the paraglider pilots with your nonsense about where we can fly or not fly, and park dept with your recklessness and arrogance, and Funston will be next. No amount of "we were here first" will stop it from happening.


Possible: I see a gal flying a train of Scott Sleds running along the beach wrapping up PGs and HGs in her lines ...She is below high tide line just flying her kite train: No FFFF flying while this is occurring... She gave notice to FFFF of her flying the train of sled kites from the water to the sky; she was there first and she flies for hours simply recreating.
Mabye, FFFF, it is time to cooperate and include, not exclude and block. Take turns. FFFF does not own the airspace nor public lands.
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Re: Censorship at Funston?

Postby JoeF » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:17 pm

OK, big guy at FFFF, I may to get more familiar with the meaning of GGNRA and Fort Funston. Thanks for the guide. You note to me that the Fort was granted for "PUBLIC USE" under management by GGNRA.

BigGuyAtFFFF wrote:You don't understand simple logic Joe..
Fort funston is not considered public land.. It has an owner.... The GGNRA... Does this make sense to you at all?

After it was a military installation the owners granted the land for public USE, not ownership or rights...

So.... As a club, we are guests here at Fort Funston and we abide by the rules... Nothing is broken as you say aside from your ability to understand simple facts..

Don't bother trying to convert me or "help me understand " your issues with how things are arranged... We are tired of hearing it and so is the GGNRA ... I'm forwarding your threat to our liaison so he can add it the the "crazy file" we call it..


OK, BigGuyAtFFFF,
I will study some more. Good time to pause. I've not ever contacted NPS nor GGNRA. Yet. Much to study first. I will start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Funston and then sharpen my studies after that. When I get final statements, then I'll begin to sort things logically and set up logical arguments to be reviewed applying the logical principles I practiced in college. First off is to find out the "owner" of the Fort Funston land of subject. Assuming won't work; I do not have the actual title information before me; and wrong assumptions won't help. So, see you after some pause, Mr. BigGuyAtFFFF. Sorry about your use of "threat" for responding to the suggestion that we work things out for inclusion within our sport community before going to others. Suggestion: stay conversing with your blocking "Go Away" you just gave in email. I'll pause to study and will be back. Thanks for persevering, Mr. BigGuyAtFFF.
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Re: Censorship at Funston?

Postby Rick Masters » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:16 pm

Joe, you can argue with FFFF or or the federal NPS GGNRA, but the elephant in the room is really the federal FAA.
FFFF may find the FAA actually has the last word.
If it comes to that...
But this is an internecine issue that is best resolved by adults within the sport.
As we are fully aware, the FAA will recognize no difference between USHGRS and USHPA rating systems.
FAR 103 is clear on this: The NPS canot play favorites between rating systems.
USHPA is only one voice in hang gliding. USHGRS is another. Both meet the intent of FAR 103.
I can't forsee the NPS GGNRA doing anything but to accomodate an FAA reiteration of FAR 103.
Personally, I think they shouldn't go there. It is entirely unnecessary.
Unfortunate and unforseen consequences could result.
FFFF could be making a big mistake by forcing this issue.
I am hopeful, but not entirely confident, that such action will work out favorably for hang gliding.
I hope it will. There is a lot to admire in the history of FFFF.
It would be much better for them to recognize USHGRS ratings and simply encourage visiting pilots to simply join their club.
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Re: Censorship at Funston?

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:34 am

Here's yet another report of the abusive conduct of USHPA's Executive Committee member Steve Rodrigues on the Fort Funston Forum:

Steve Davy - 2017/12/10

2017/12/09 03:49:33 UTC I created a new topic titled "Incident Reports - Index" on Sylmar's Safety and Incidents in flight sub-forum:
http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=3
in that topic I posted a link to this Kite Strings thread. A few minutes latter I did the same on the Funston General Discussion sub-forum. 

Information
You have been permanently banned from this board.
Please contact the Board Administrator for more information.
Reason given for ban: Posting inflammatory information not relevant to the club.
A ban has been issued on your username.


PS - I found an e-mail address for Steve Rodrigues so I sent him this:

Steve Davy - 7:18 PM
Did you delete my incident report topic, and ban me from the Funston forum?


Got this from him this morning:

Steve Rodrigues - 1:00 AM (9 hours ago)
to Board, me
Yes, please refer to our terms of use.
Steve


This report is consistent with the way I was banned and Joe Faust's report above.
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