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Re: USHPA Revokes Tandem Exemption from Air California Adven

Postby wingspan33 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:46 pm

Rick Masters wrote:After reading the October 13 posts on OZ Report, I can only confirm we are witnessing the disintegration of the USHPA.


I only wish I could read the Oz posts myself. Unfortunately, Mr. Straub seems to be afraid of the general public seeing what goes on in his good old boys club.
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Re: USHPA Revokes Tandem Exemption from Air California Adven

Postby magentabluesky » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:11 pm

Rick,

Are you referring to the Drogue Chute posts, the marriage of hang gliders and parachutes?

It is a mystery to me why anyone would need a drogue chute.

(a little off topic).

mg
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Re: USHPA Revokes Tandem Exemption from Air California Adven

Postby Bill Cummings » Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:40 am

magentabluesky wrote:Rick,

Are you referring to the Drogue Chute posts, the marriage of hang gliders and parachutes?

It is a mystery to me why anyone would need a drogue chute.

(a little off topic).

mg

I can think of one reason a H3 pilot flying a Falcon might need a drogue chute.
To debunk MGF's reason that the H4 requirement is necessary at Torrey Pines for safety reasons.

And let's not forget that 40/1 sail planes have landed at Torry Pines.
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Re: USHPA Revokes Tandem Exemption from Air California Adven

Postby Rick Masters » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:24 am

Are you referring to the Drogue Chute posts, the marriage of hang gliders and parachutes?

No.
It is a mystery to me why anyone would need a drogue chute.

Seriously? You use flaps and spoilers. George Worthington used a drogue on his ASW-12.
The drogue steepens your glide, that's all. I agree, most pilots will never need one.
But if you do need one, you really, really need it.
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USHGPA Tandem /Instructor ~ Loss of Credibility

Postby eagle » Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:17 am

Pilots Loss of faith
~ Our Gliderport operation and leader's are in question ~

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Re: USHPA Revokes Tandem Exemption from Air California Adven

Postby KaiMartin » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:51 pm

Bill Cummings wrote:
magentabluesky wrote:It is a mystery to me why anyone would need a drogue chute.

And let's not forget that 40/1 sail planes have landed at Torry Pines.

Gliders can engage their air brakes. These look small but they kill a significant portion of the lift. Unlike drogue chutes the air brakes can be disengaged when the needed, or even partially engaged. In addition, the glider pilot can perform a slip maneuver to further decrease the glide ratio.
This reults in quite a degree of glide ratio control.

---<)kaimartin(>---
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Re: USHPA Revokes Tandem Exemption from Air California Adven

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:18 pm

Back on topic ...

It's amazing to watch the ignorance that passes for knowledge on some of the other forums.

For example, Davis Straub recently posted these comments on hanggliding.org:

Davis Straub wrote:I would love to hear the real story, but no one here seems to know it.

Davis Straub wrote:The question I raise is did anyone bring the ACA up for actions before the USHPA by contacting their Regional Director or USHPA committee chairman with a written complaint and evidence of misconduct. If that's wrong, please speak up.

Davis Straub wrote:I'm still trying to find out if anyone actually went to the USHPA with evidence and demanded action.

Davis Straub wrote:I heard many stories and, of course, I was aware of Mr. Jebb. So far the answer is no. No one took their evidence to an impartial Regional Director or the appropriate USHPA committee chairman. That's what I'm hearing so far.

Davis Straub wrote:So far not a single person has stood up and said, yes I gathered the evidence in writing and presented that evidence to the appropriate USHPA committee chairman or impartial Regional Director, any impartial Regional Director. I'm beginning to think that there isn't such a person.

This is like Davis is standing in Nazi Germany and saying "I don't get it, where are all the complaints from Jews?"

He apparently hasn't been able to find his way to this 13 page topic on hanggliding.org.
He also hasn't been able to find his way to my 2010 letter posted here at US Hawks.

For the record Davis, here's just one letter sent by a USHPA member (and Region 3 Director - me) reporting a cover-up incident to all of USHPA's top (supposedly "impartial"?) leadership both nationally and in Region 3. It was sent (specifically) to:

    Dave Broyles - USHPA's Chairman of Safety and Training (an "impartial" Director?)
    Lisa Tate - USHPA's President and Executive Committee member (an "impartial" Director?)
    Mark Gaskill - USHPA's Vice President and Executive Committee member (an "impartial" Director?)
    Rich Hass - USHPA's Secretary and Executive Committee member (an "impartial" Director?)
    Mark Forbes - USHPA's Treasurer and Executive Committee member (an "impartial" Director?)
    Ken Baier - USHPA's Representative to the Torrey Pines Soaring Council (an "impartial" Representative?)
    Brad Hall - USHPA Regional Director for Region 3 (an "impartial" Director?)
    Rob Sporrer - USHPA Regional Director for Region 3 (an "impartial" Director?)


Here's the letter:

Bob's Letter to USHPA Sent on February 8th, 2010 wrote:
To: Dave Broyles <broyles.dave@gmail.com>
CC: Ken Baier <airjunkies@sbcglobal.net>,
    Mark Gaskill <airutah@hotmail.com>,
    Rob Sporrer <rob@paraglide.com>,
    Brad Hall <brad.reg3@gmail.com>,
    Rich Hass <richhass@comcast.net>,
    Rich Hass <richhass@mac.com>,
    Lisa Tate <lisa@lisatateglass.com>,
    Lisa Tate <lisa@soaringdreamsart.com>,
    Lisa Tate <lisa.tate@ushpa.aero>,
    Mark G. Forbes <mgforbes@mindspring.com>
Date: February 08, 2010, 04:03:10 PM


Hello Dave (cc Brad Hall, Rob Sporrer, Ken Baier, and the EC),

I was at Torrey Pines yesterday and I witnessed an incident. Rather than describe it myself, I'll just pass along what was posted on hanggliding.org this morning by another witness who I know was there...

     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Jason writes (http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=15666):

     Witnessed an Incident yesterday- don't see the form on the USHPA
     website- and knowing Torrey---this will never be reported

     Sunday Feb 7
     While standing in the landing area talking to a friend, I hear him say
     "whats this guy doing"

     I look towards the ridge to see a paraglider pilot flying directly downwind
     low over the the PG set up area. The pilot then intiates a right hand turn,
     impacting two stationary hanggliders, and crashing between several others.

     After checking to see if everyone was ok and inspecting the gliders for
     damage (one of them had a bent washout tube) Bob, the local RD, asks the
     pilot who his instructor was and if he was on radio. Brad Geary immediately
     tells the pilot to "don't even talk"

     An immediate gag order was in place, no one knows who this pilot was, or
     who his instructor was. The pilot WAS on radio as evidenced by the radio
     strapped to his chest. And that he carried with him in his hand for close to
     15 minutes afterward
     ------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with Jason's description of this event, and I do not request any action be taken regarding the incident itself (unless it is found that the instructor on radio was willfully neglecting his or her duties to keep the student safe). We all understand how this can happen, and we can just do our best to minimize it.

But what does concern me is having a USHPA instructor tell a USHPA student to NOT reveal the name of his instructor to a Regional Director.

I certainly don't know all the legal requirements behind what a Director can ask, and what a student is required to give (I suspect it's zero). But we are supposed to be a self-regulated sport, and that means that our members (and particularly our instructors) are supposed to comply with standards of safety and accountability within our organization. If an instructor is telling a student to NOT reveal the name of his own instructor to an official within USHPA, that strikes me as a fairly severe violation of those standards.

There have been other postings to that topic, and I suggest that you skim through them. I posted two comments myself (which I have included below).

I am not sure what action should be taken at this time, but having USHPA instructors telling USHPA students to NOT reveal their own instructor's name after an incident is NOT something that USHPA can defend.

Bob Kuczewski
Regional Director - USHPA Region 3


===========================================================
Bob Kuczewski's posts to the topic:
===========================================================
I agree with Jason's original reporting of the incident, and it was very very fortunate that the pilot wasn't hurt. He only hit two of the hang gliders in a very very dense area, and it could have been much much worse.

I also agree with Jason's reporting of the subsequent discussion. I approached the pilot (who appeared to be a young student - late teens or early 20s) after everything had settled down. I asked who his instructor was. Immediately, Brad Geary inserted himself and told the pilot "Don't tell him".

Now, the incident itself was very minor, and I was sure that the student had done his best to avoid those hang gliders. So I really didn't feel the need to say much to the student or to ask any questions of the student. But I did think it was appropriate and prudent to at least have a discussion with the instructor to understand if proper safety procedures were being followed. I suspect that discussion would have been fairly brief, and I was hopeful that the discussion alone might raise the instructor's safety awareness.

But what turned a relatively minor situation into a pretty big deal was having one USHPA instructor telling a relatively new student (USHPA member?) not to even tell a Director who his instructor was. That put that young student in quite a bind. I could tell by the look in his eyes that he was caught in the middle, and that's why I didn't press the issue with him.

If USHPA is going to have any credibility in terms of our instructor program and our safety record, we cannot have instructors telling students that the name of their instructor is a secret. That's lunacy.

Now maybe Brad was worried that I might "turn them in" over the incident. That was not my intention. But even if it was, there are (or should be) mechanisms in place to keep all Directors (Bob Kuczewski or David Jebb) from abusing their power. We cannot use "fear" as an excuse to go down a road where we condone instructors telling students not to tell who their instructor is after an incident has happened - regardless of how major or minor.

But most of all, I am appalled that the instructor (whoever it was) did not have the integrity to step forward and be accountable for the situation. I suspect those actions would get an instructor fired at many good schools. The fact that this behavior is condoned at Torrey tells us a lot about how that site continues to be managed.

I am still considering how to best handle this matter...

Bob Kuczewski
Regional Director - USHPA Region 3

===========================================================
SlingBlade wrote:
     If this guy has students careening around the place all the time I would certainly think
     it cause for concern. If this student was a fluke then maybe it's the student not the instructor.

I think you're missing the point here. We all know that students can freeze and make poor decisions. I'm sure it's happened to many of us, and our goal should be to try to minimize these events through good skills training, good communication, and good training of our instructors. We all agree with that.

The problem here is having an instructor tell a student to NOT reveal the name of the instructor who was supposed to be on the radio monitoring the student's safety. No one is blaming the student at all.

The fact that the instructor himself didn't step forward is appalling to me. The fact that Brad Geary (whether he was *the* instructor or not) would tell a student to hide the name of his own instructor is even worse. What kind of an organization are we running here when students are told by USHPA instructors to hide the name of their USHPA instructor? That sounds more like what I would expect from a street gang than from a national pilots association. Could you imagine if an FAA instructor was telling a student (who had crashed) not to tell the name of the student's instructor to the FAA?

===========================================================


For those who didn't read the entire thing, this was my concluding line in that letter (trying to be somewhat diplomatic):

Bob Kuczewski wrote:I am not sure what action should be taken at this time, but having USHPA instructors telling USHPA students to NOT reveal their own instructor's name after an incident is NOT something that USHPA can defend.

This should have been a huge red flag to USHPA, but they did nothing. A year and a half later, Shannon Hamby (a P1 student on the radio) was flown into another (Pnada) student on the radio at Torrey Pines. I testified to exactly this incident, and - as I predicted a year and a half earlier - it was NOT something that USHPA could defend. So they expelled me.

In the future Davis, if you want the facts, you have to go to a place where the people who have them ... can post them. That currently excludes hanggliding.org and your own Oz Forum.
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Re: USHPA Revokes Tandem Exemption from Air California Adven

Postby magentabluesky » Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:26 pm

Bob,

Sorry to go off topic, Thanks for bringing us back.

mg
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Re: USHPA Revokes Tandem Exemption from Air California Adven

Postby Rick Masters » Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:08 pm

Bob, It's too bad so many pilots willfully keep themselves in the dark about what is happening with the USHPA.
It is hard to believe so many could be so stupid as to rely on OZ report and the other censorship site for information while pretending http://USHawks.org does not exist.
It's sad but I'M NOT SURE YOU CAN HELP THESE PEOPLE. The best that they can get may be exactly what they deserve..
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The City, The Gliderport, The USHPA & The OZ report

Postby eagle » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:11 am

Till We learn the Truth, and while We all put up with it , Right.
Our Leaders are an Association of Cutthroats. Do you see how they all protect each other.
So Who's Talking smack behind the Curtain

~ Just a Bunch of OZholes ~

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