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Re: Los Angeles, California

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:30 am

Frank Colver wrote:I told BobK a quote from Wayne Gretzky this morning: "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take".

We are pressing on!

It's a great quote!! Thanks Frank.    :salute:
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
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Re: Los Angeles, California

Postby JoeF » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:36 am

JoeF wrote:I must back down some. The contract was not consistent in how it specified Authorized Activity; in some places the contract did not specify any supervision.
A more complete reading came up with "supervision" in one place. At the other reported places the contract was "lessons" , "renting" AND NO OTHER ACTIVITY. But in the appendix was the below quote that has the Concession doing supervision of those of the public who came to hang glide and were doing the hang gliding. No public person should be denied hang gliding activity without very good reason, it seems. Supervision of those hanggliding is not part of the giving of lessons or renting equipment. No site fee is mentioned in the contract. We already pay for parking; we do not pay for using the area for recreation; so, I question the site fee. Renting equipment is allowed the Concession. But the way I read the contract, I see no allowance for a site-use fee charged to the public. If the practice was installed and approved by the Director as a change in the contract, then view of such change is not in the documents permitted for study.

Hang Gliding
The Licensee is authorized only to provide hang gliding lessons; superv1s1on of those persons
engaging in hang gliding activity on the Premises during Licensee's operating hours; and rental of
hang gliding equipment on the Premises, and for no other use.


OK,supervision during the concession's operating hours. Not when the the concession is closed.
So park hours are larger than the operating hours. Hang gliding done when the concession is closed is not supervised by the concession.
"Supervision" does not mean force joining private corporations or disallowing hang gliding modes that are simply different from what the concession would like to have happen.
The visitors may hang glide under supervision. Stoppage of the recreation hang gliding for breaks in County ordinances seems implied. Overbearing supervision is a possibility. There should be no interfering with the public's hang gliding unless for very good reason. Not joining the Concession's choices of private corporations would be a poor reason to stop a public visitor from hang gliding. Supervision does not mean over control to lower what the FAA wants of hang glider pilots: self-regulations. Pilots need to practice 100% responsibility for their launch, flight, and landing, and care for their wing; they are to be aware of their surroundings and weather; they are to maintain their equipment to fit the kind of hang gliding intended. Supervision would coordinate unexpected deals; perhaps the Concession is told that a bulldozer was arriving; the Concessionaire would tell what he knows about that. Just don't stop the public from hang gliding because they do not join some private membership association. Supervision should not mean creating unfair rules and pressing such on the public hang gliding person. The Concession developed a set of rules that have some very definite overreaches; those overreaches should be rooted out of those rules as they unfairly damp hang gliding activity.

I think Frank and I have been proposing that hang gliding public could file with the County an annual Waiver (certainly not the awful RRRK waiver), a signature of recognition of basic rules (certainly not the rule of forced membership in a private corporation), and a signature on a fundamental physics sheet, and filing of a limited-length statement of one''s hang gliding experience. Such could be accompanied by a small annual administration fee. The Concession might be the agent for such filing; and such would suffice for being supervised in the public non-lesson hang gliding activity.
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Re: Los Angeles, California

Postby Bill Cummings » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:11 pm

So far I only see one aspect that I'm having difficulty with.
The annual waiver with the county.
Isn't there already a recreational hold harmless act established?
If staff pushed me over a parking divider why would it be to my benefit to not sue the City
for not banning such activity of a lease holder?
Last edited by Bill Cummings on Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Los Angeles, California

Postby JoeF » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:16 pm

Email application sent to Windsports International, Inc, with copy to others on this day April 18, 2017:

Permit to fly hang gliders during your open hours requested
Permit to fly during your open hours requested

Good morning, Joe Greblo,

Windsports International, Inc.,

Will you extend a permit for me to hang glide at Dockweiler during your open hours for the year 2017? Herein is my application for a permit to fly. I have on file with you signed waivers already. I cannot join USHPA and will not so join, as that organization has on record a habit of many sustained actions that are profoundly morally repugnant to me and many other hang gliding enthusiasts.

Thank you for the anticipated permit. I am responding to the sign at Dockweiler that says to apply for a permit from Windsports International, Inc. that has a concession to sell lessons and rent hang glider equipment at the designated confined premises marked by wooden poles while sharing the designated site with hang gliding enthusiasts who arrive at the beach and obtain a permit to fly from you.

Here is my guess: “supervise” would imply reasonable and fair supervision only. I would be respecting reasonable rules while coordinating fairly with other beach users at the area designated for public hang gliding, the only such site offered by the County of Los Angeles. Healthy recreation is important to me; such helps me serve the people of Los Angeles in my works.

I have been flying hang gliders at Dockweiler State Beach since 1971; I instructed hang gliding at Dockweiler for decades before the present concession arrived to sell lessons and rent equipment and give supervision. I have respected your concession by refraining from living lessons at the designated site; I have respected your concession by refraining from renting or selling HG gear or materials at the designated site. I’ve wished your concession over lesson giving and renting great success and have volunteered in many ways to support such. I cofounded the recent Friends of Dockweiler Gliding Society (FDGS) and recently stopped my membership and officership in that entity without giving up my personal independent drive to stay a positive friend of the Dockweiler Hang Gliding Center itself and your training-rental business at the designated site. It is assumed that the designated site is to serve the recreational needs of people visiting Los Angeles County and such as foremost, not the grand schemes of offsite interests.

It is my understanding that your business has the privilege of protected lesson giving for hire and privilege of protected rental of HG gear; for that business protected-from-competition privilege it has been agreed that you will extend some general fair supervision to all comers who are hang gliding at the designated “Dockweiler Hang Gliding Center” where “smooth coastal winds” and “gentle slopes” and “soft sand” (quotes from the dedication plaque of 2000 year) allow mild hang gliding to occur for visitors who want to practice the “art” and “sport” of hang gliding. It is my understanding that when you instruct professional lessons that you have such students under your control in such manner that you are required to insure those students in some way. Differently, general supervision of non-students/non-renters of equipment where you are not instructing and do not control, there is a different relationship that has the uncontrolled hang gliding person fully self-responsible.

Best,

Joe Faust

Founder of Self-Soar Association, Founder of USHGA (#1), co-founder of USHGA (#2), hang glider manufacturer, former member of USHPA until it became morally repugnant to stay a member of that private corporation, hang glider instructor, hang gliding participant, citizen of Los Angeles City, citizen of Los Angeles County, citizen of the State of California, citizen of the United States of America, publisher of Low & Slow, Hang Glider Weekly, Hang Glider, Hang Glider Business Weekly, LIFT ezine (online hang glider periodical), founder and member of the first Hang Glider Manufacturers Association (HGMA), respecter of Los Angeles County ordinances, respecter of FAA's FARs, holder of good health, USA Olympian in the event high jump representing my City of Los Angeles and my Los Angeles County as home, nearly 50 years of helping others hang glide, hang glider test pilot for scores of hang glider wings, retired LAUSD mathematics teacher, Los Angeles County property taxpayer, retired CSULA mathematics instructor, retired associate industrial engineer of Santa Monica's former McDonnell Douglas Aerospace Corporation, of excellent safety record in hang gliding: no injury or damage to others; volunteer for years for cleaning beaches of Los Angeles City streets and beaches, volunteer webmaster for the former University Hills Neighborhood Association in 90032 (volunteer works in Los Angeles 90032), seer of every hang glider flight as a stunt action deserving sharp awareness of wing-self-others-wind-traffic-forecastes, founder of Kite Information & Technology Exchange Society of America (KITESA), volunteer webmaster for Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA), aimer to fulfill the self-regulation for hang gliding encouraged by the FAA,
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Re: Los Angeles, California

Postby JoeF » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:26 pm

Bill Cummings wrote:So far I only see one aspect that I'm having difficulty with.
The annual waiver with the county.
Isn't there already a recreational hold harmless act established?
If staff pushed me over a parking divider why would it be to my benefit to not sue the City
for not banning such activity of a lease holder?


Bill, the push deal happened at Torrey in San Diego City and San Diego County.
Los Angeles County has an ordinance that states for ALL USERS of their assets that the users hold harmless the County by using the entry onto the assets (except such all does not deal with direct reckless deliberate assault and gross negligence, as I understand things, not being a lawyer.

If staff broke ordinance and law recklessly or with gross negligence then such could be matter of suit. Direct assault is not excused by hold harmless. Maintaining gross negligence is not excused by waivers, only negligence less than gross negligence, as I understand things. Breaking the laws and ordinance are told in the concession as potential reason to cancel the license (concession).
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Re: Los Angeles, California

Postby Bill Cummings » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:51 pm

I'm sure you're correct Joe. Thanks!
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Re: Los Angeles, California

Postby JoeF » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:32 pm

Some feedback from my application to fly at Dockweiler:
1. I had copied the editor of magazine held by USHPA. The editor emailed me back and had a terse: "take me off your mailing list".
My comment: That sure is a great way to stay informed! Put blinders on. Good luck with that Nick G.

2. Windsports International replied formally paraphrased here: Without active current membership in that private third-party membership organization I cannot recreate fly at Dockweiler no matter how otherwise qualified I am.

There will be more to report as the effort to get a permit to fly at Dockweiler continues. Finally the Director of Beaches and Harbor and the Supervisors may weigh in on the application to fly by one of their constituents who needs to fly a hang glider recreationally and whose qualifications are on the table. If the County cannot satisfy this matter, then the State will be addressed and the Commissioner of insurance for the State as regards abuse of insurance for consumers. State resources were used in the making of the designated site. My property taxes were used in forming the designed site. Skateboarders stunt over concrete without the burden of insurance in County skate parks.
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Re: Los Angeles, California

Postby Rick Masters » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:11 pm

I had copied the editor of magazine held by USHPA. The editor emailed me back and had a terse: "take me off your mailing list".

Are we reduced now to begging soaring parachutists for our right to fly hang gliders - even on a little sand dune?
Not me.
Go outlaw or sue their asses off.
Stop begging.
It's embarrassing!
I can't believe real hang glider pilots can stomach this crap - but they suck it up.
My how the world has changed...

- Form a national hang gliding association - we sure need one! -
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Re: Los Angeles, California

Postby dhmartens » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:36 pm

write windsports the $10 check and write on the memo:
I dont want no magazine
I dont want no membership beyond 5pm today
I want nothing to do with your corrupt insurance broker that defrauded us uspto on their trademark application to the federal gov't hiding they are an insurance monopoly that over 50% of their dues goes to insurance and yet they did not disclose that to them.
I want to fly hang gliders and hate crooks and just want to fly today.

You see Bob my Beavis and Butthead post was not an insult but a response to your comment of being succinct.
No one is more succinct than beavis and butthead
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Hang gliding is Cool!, Ushpa Sucks, Rrg is cool.

Writing stuff on your check gets the feds to investigate!
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Re: Los Angeles, California

Postby Rick Masters » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:49 pm

Writing stuff on your check gets the feds to investigate!

Getting arrested gets the feds to investigate.
BobK already has huge standing.

Standing, or locus standi, is capacity of a party to bring suit in court. State laws define standing. At the heart of these statutes is the requirement that plaintiffs have sustained or will sustain direct injury or harm and that this harm is redressable.

I suggest a big fly-in at Dockweiler - or better yet, Torrey Pines - with FAA reps present.
Everybody needs standing.
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