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Re: Non-insurance SoCal sites launch & land

Postby brianscharp » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:38 am

Frank Colver wrote:Sorry Bob, it's not all about you...

Oh yeah? No sticky post for you.
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Re: Non-insurance SoCal sites launch & land

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:19 am

brianscharp wrote:
Frank Colver wrote:Sorry Bob, it's not all about you...

Oh yeah? No sticky post for you.


There's only one "sticky" topic in the U.S. Hawks General forum ("Hello U.S. Hawks!!"). That's a topic for welcoming new members and doesn't reflect any particular political position other than promoting a sense of community in the club.

I will note that a comment like Frank's "all about you" remark will get people banned on sites like hanggliding.org, ozreport.com, and especially on your beloved "kitestrings". Frank is not banned from the U.S. Hawks. In fact I just finished posting a glowing review of Frank's new swing seat in another topic.

We're mature enough here on the U.S. Hawks to disagree vehemently with our fellow members and still not resort to bannings or expulsions based on those disagreements. We're mature enough to disagree with each other on some topics and yet support each other on other topics. That's a level of maturity not yet achieved by Jack, Davis, Tad, ... or USHPA.
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Re: Non-insurance SoCal sites launch & land

Postby Frank Colver » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:59 pm

I hereby apologize for my statement: "Sorry, it's not all about you Bob". Bob saw a different purpose behind my site list than what I had intended and I got upset and should not have replied the way I did, before giving it more careful consideration.

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Re: Non-insurance SoCal sites launch & land

Postby Frank Colver » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:12 pm

It should not be interpreted from my listing of non-insurance / regulated flying sites that they are in any way superior, or even equal, to the popular sites in SoCal. There are reasons why places like Sylmar, Crestline, and Torrey have become popular and ultimately came under USHPA insurance control.

As can be noted by some of the descriptions of the various sites shown in the list, some may be difficult to access and or fly and anyone seeking to expand their flying site experience should do so with as much knowledge as possible about these sites. In the early days of modern hang gliding we drove all over SoCal looking for places to fly. The result was finding places like Sylmar, Crestline, etc., plus other less desirable sites. Some of which may have only been flown once, others, like the ones on the list have been flown less frequently than the popular sites, often because they are less desirable for various reasons. Some on the list I can say I enjoyed flying on a regular basis until they became popular and crowded, like Elsinore and Soboba. I personally enjoyed flying the less popular sites because I didn't like crowded launches and skies. For other pilots, the group of other flyers is one of the things they like. To each his or her own. I will admit it is very nice to have at least one "wind dummy" there. "Looks good, you go first".

I would like to see additions made to this SoCal list and even expanding it into Central and Northern CA uninsured sites. I hope this list is useful to those wanting to fly the less crowded, but maybe more difficult, skies of SoCal.

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Re: Non-insurance SoCal sites launch & land

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:15 am

To the Founders ...

Frank, I know that your original post was meant with the very very best of intentions. You are one of the Giants (along with your son Matt Colver, and Joe Faust, and Neil Larson) who started the club that became what we now know as "USHPA". I know that you started that club for all the right reasons. They are the same reasons that you posted that list - to give the gift of flight to your fellow man (including me). You've given that gift with your SkySail, with your foot launched balloon, with your variometer, and now with your swing seat and your new training glider. Your motives are pure, and they come from a time when hang gliding was pure.

I too am sorry. I am sorry that the wonderful sport that was founded by such good people has become so corrupted. I am sorry that USHPA's deep corruption has cast its dark shadows on the good intentions of your original post. I am sorry that my interpretation of that post has been poisoned by so many years of dealing with that corruption. I am sorry that everything we say on this forum must be viewed in the context of how USHPA might use it against the original intentions of you and your fellow founders. I am sorry that the political context of this situation got the best of me in my earlier response.

But I am also thankful. I am thankful that you've returned to the sport to help clean it up and pass it on to future generations. I am thankful to Joe Faust and Neil Larson and your son Matt for those same reasons. I am thankful that despite our occasional disagreements we can continue to keep our focus on that future and work together toward it.

We've done a great thing together at Dockweiler. We've discovered that landowners (like the County of Los Angeles) are not the evil hang gliding haters wanting to kick us out (without insurance) that USHPA would have us believe. We've learned that asking nicely and providing reasonable assurance of protection (through waivers or recreational use statutes) works wonders. We've learned that citizens can negotiate their recreation in good faith without paying a third party to intercede. That's a sustainable model for the future of hang gliding.

Your list is a good list, and I hope we'll find the time to safely explore many of those sites together. That's a friendly challenge for all of us. : )

Your friend in flight,
Bob Kuczewski
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Re: Non-insurance SoCal sites launch & land

Postby Thunderchicken » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:16 pm

Hat Creek Rim is a Free Flight sight in Northern California.
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Re: Non-insurance SoCal sites launch & land

Postby Thunderchicken » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:21 pm

And Ed Levine in Milpitas doesn't require USHPA membership.Come to think of it, most Forest Service sites up here don't require any proof or ratings or memberships in insurance scams--uh, I mean clubs. Yeah, clubs not insurance thieves, i mean scams--wait, CLUBS.
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Re: Non-insurance SoCal sites launch & land

Postby Frank Colver » Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:14 pm

Correct, the Forest Service doesn't require it for National Forest launch sites, it is usually the owner of the LZ that requires insurance. For example: the Crestline launch sites and the Sylmar launch sites.

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Re: Non-insurance SoCal sites launch & land

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:09 am

ThunderChicken!!!   :salute:

Welcome to the U.S. Hawks!!!    :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

May I move your posts to the "Look Ma, No USHPA" topic since your sites are a bit north of Southern California?
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