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Re: USHGRS

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:28 pm

"Bubble Boy" (John Borton) doesn't seem to grasp Joe Faust's concept of an independent rating system on USHGRS. On hanggliding.org he writes:

BubbleBoy wrote:REALLY? 

Adding pilots to the ratings lists without their permission?

That's a real scumbaggery way to make it look bigger and more accepted than it is right there.

JB


Later, he gets even nastier:

BubbleBoy wrote:What a shi**y thing to do to harvest names and include people who have zero interest in being included (especially the well known names to make it look like they've bought into the gig).


Maybe John Borton hasn't heard of Google ranking (effectively rating) web sites without permission? Maybe he hasn't heard of sportscasters rating teams without their permission? Maybe he hasn't heard of credit bureaus rating almost everyone without their permission?

Joe's USHGRS rating system isn't about membership. It's about offering an impartial and objective rating of a pilot's skill level based on public information.

Scumbaggery? I guess it's true that no good deed goes unpunished ... at least on hanggliding.org.

Keep up the good work Joe. Don't let that former HGAA "chairman" get you down. Maybe someone on hanggliding.org should ask him how things have been going with the HGAA since his overthrow of Scott 8 years ago last month?
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Re: USHGRS

Postby Rick Masters » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:50 pm

I would suggest putting US Hawks members in one color and members of other orgs or corps in different colors.
I don't consider it an "appropriation" to include non-Hawks members in the USHGRS list because it is a generic ratings list that demonstrates to the government that the sport of hang gliding is trying to be responsible under FAR 103 for establishing skill sets.
But some people are going to cry about it - so just put them in non-Hawks colors.
Personally, I would only include those who request to be included in the USHGRS system.
It's too much work to include them all, imho.
But I also recognize Joe's point - it's a non-affiliated U.S. rating system and if you're rated by any rating system, you're in it.
That's the point after all - and it's hardly a bad thing.
And it's a brilliant idea because it spreads equality across the sport.
Something USHPA members should consider is that the USHGRS rating does not expire.
Think about it.
If you don't need a paragliding magazine, what are you paying all that money for?

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Re: USHGRS

Postby JoeF » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:26 am

The team at USGRS does not certify merely by absorbing "any" other rating system. Example, if BubbleBoy did begin a rating system, then that rating system may or may not pass the muster of the USHGRS; maybe BubbleBoy's rating system went to the phone book and just copied names randomly and threw a stated HG rating over the miscellaneous persons; that won't fly for USHGRS.

A pilot or operator of a FAR-103 airframed hang glider may request that the USHGRS stated rating for them be removed from being published in the main files; but the historical notes are up for archiving anyway as a part of history. Let USHGRS know of any challenge about a statement published about you or some pilot or operator wrapped by the USHGRS public pages. Notice that many pilots or HG operators will be having their names text-linked to an historical file about them; such file may be reviewed by public readers for any reason. USHGRS is giving first priority to pilots or operators that initiate their case with USHGRS directly.
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Re: USHGRS

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:21 am

Rick Masters wrote:But I also recognize Joe's point - it's a non-affiliated U.S. rating system and if you're rated by any rating system, you're in it.
That's the point after all - and it's hardly a bad thing.
And it's a brilliant idea because it spreads equality across the sport.
Something USHPA members should consider is that the USHGRS rating does not expire.
Think about it.

Don't be a pigeon. Be a Hawk!

Well said Rick!!!      It is a brilliant idea Joe!!
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Re: USHGRS

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:45 am

One of the many gifts of Joe Faust's new USHGRS project is the invitation to browse through the names of our fellow pilots. That browsing brought me to a beautiful speech by Mike Meier at:

https://www.willswing.com/remembering-rob-kells/

Remembering Rob Kells
August 9, 2018


Rob Kells, our friend and partner for more than 30 years, passed away ten years ago today. It is hard to believe that it has been that long since he left us, but time passes at an ever accelerating rate as we get older, and those of us who are left are now old enough that the passage of time has indeed become rapid. There probably is not a lot that can be said about Rob that hasn’t already been said or written – (you can still visit Rob’s Page and Remembrances of Rob on our web site by searching for “Rob Kells”) – but we thought we would share with you some thoughts excerpted from Mike’s acceptance speech to the USHPA Board when they awarded him the Rob Kells Memorial Award.

Mike and Linda Meier, and Steve Pearson

March 11, 2016 – USHPA Awards Banquet

When I got the letter from George Sturtevant last November informing me that I had been selected to receive the Rob Kells Memorial Award I’ll admit to having had some significant misgivings. I wasn’t involved in the creation of the award, but I was consulted at the time, and I thought I remembered something of the stated award criteria. But to be sure, I went onto the USHPA web site, and read the criteria again. Yep, there it was, as I remembered it:

“The intention of the Rob Kells Memorial award is to recognize a pilot, group, chapter or other entity that stands out in the free-flight community as possessing qualities and actions that bring to mind Rob Kells and all that he represented to everyone who knew him.”

“This award should reflect all the qualities that endeared Rob Kells to the flying community.”

Well now. I believe that I knew Rob about as well as anyone in the flying community, so I think I am at least somewhat qualified to speak to those qualities that endeared him to that community. Rob was extremely charismatic. He was gregarious, outgoing and friendly. He was unfailingly upbeat, optimistic, positive and encouraging. And he went out of his way to direct credit to others, and to make others feel good about themselves.

Hence, my misgivings. It would take much more than a slight stretch to imagine that those qualities could be legitimately ascribed to this year’s recipient. So at this point, I’m feeling a little bit like Dan Quayle at the 1988 vice presidential debates, when he was called out by Lloyd Bentsen for having compared himself to JFK. I fully expect someone to stand up in the back of the room, level an accusatory finger, and say, “I flew with Rob Kells, I knew Rob Kells, Rob Kells was a friend of mine. And you, sir, are no Rob Kells!”

And indeed, I am not.

Well, it’s called the Rob Kells Memorial award. So perhaps it is enough if we use this occasion to remember Rob, and what he meant to those of us who knew him, and what he meant to the larger community as a whole. In addition to the qualities I’ve mentioned, which served Rob well in his position as president and head of sales of Wills Wing, Rob was a person of unexpected vision. He was the architect and the chief defender of a long standing policy at Wills Wing under which we would not sell retail direct in competition with our own dealers, and under which we would support, to the best of our ability, the dealers, schools and instructors who were, and are, the wellspring of support for their local flying communities and the ultimate source of sustainability for our sport.

This policy was often a significant disadvantage to us business wise in the short term, especially back in the days when there were far more manufacturers competing for what was even then a too small market of customers, but over the long term it turned out to be the best possible thing for the sport and for us as a company.

Rob also influenced me in other ways. I remember a conversation among the four managing partners at Wills Wing, early in our association, during which we were debating the best course of action for the company, among several alternatives, in a difficult situation. Rob was advocating strongly for one particular decision, which to me did not seem to be the most practically advantageous. When I pressed him to defend his position, he said simply, “Because it’s the right thing to do.”

That conversation had a profound effect on me. I realized in that moment that this was perhaps the one necessary and sufficient condition that one needed, when making a choice in a situation where there was any moral or ethical component to the decision.

After Rob died, a memorial service was held, and some of us had the opportunity to say a few words about him. As part of my remarks, I chose to quote from a speech given by Theodore Roosevelt. The speech was entitled “Citizenship In A Republic” and this was the quotation:

“It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or how the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena – whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly and who comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause, and who, at best, in the end, knows the triumph of high achievement, and who at worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place will never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.”

Rob Kells was, without question, in the arena. He knew the triumph of high achievement. He also knew defeat. But he was never a cold or timid soul. I myself have been much more the critic, and in this, and in many other ways I am almost the opposite of what Rob was. But he did inspire me: to try to be something more, something better. As I suspect he inspired many other people along the way. And whether or not we fully live up to that inspiration, perhaps it is enough that we remember him by having experienced it.
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Re: USHGRS

Postby JoeF » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:38 am

http://www.flyfunston.org/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1882
mentioned USHakws and USHGRS. Care to join that discussion?
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Re: USHGRS

Postby BBJCaptain » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:53 pm

Joe,

I would like to apply for a USHGRS H4 rating based on my USH$A H4 rating achieved in 1980 (still current).
My special skills signed off are AWCL CL FL FSL RLF TUR XC. If you want to add my YouTube channel here is the link. http://m.youtube.com/user/BBJCaptain/videos

Thanks,
Rolla Manning Jr.
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Re: USHGRS

Postby JoeF » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:42 am

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Re: USHGRS

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:33 am

There's been continued discussion on hanggliding.org about USHGRS.

http://forum.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=36135

DMarley on Sep 13, 2018 at 9:26 am wrote:Joe, 
So now you're adding to your list dead pilots and pilots who have obviously no desire to be on your list?
You're obviously attempting to legitimize your little club by incredibly ill means. Deceased pilots? Really?
Mark Forbes? Really? And you're linking to Mark's videos that don't indicate who the pilot is in each vid?
I would be highly surprised to hear that Mark gave you permission to put his endorsement on your club by adding his name to your list of pilots.
You're club is appearing to be more and more ill-conceived and ill-guided. Is that the kind of organization that you want to be known as? The kind of club who's leaders would induct deceased pilots? Would you also vote in public elections under the name of deceased voters? 
Have some respect at least for the deceased if not for yourself.

DMarley wrote:And I just saw that you put Larry Tudor's name on your ill-begotten list. Did you get his permission, or did you merely stick in it there because you knew his name? 
And then his name is linked to your friend's site that has ridiculous posts of Larry being put to death in Korea, of Larry killing himself, of all sorts of ridiculous rhetoric pointing to Larry Tudor. You should be terribly ashamed of yourself. 
You are giving all of us pilots a bad name by doing this underhanded bs.


Joe gave an excellent response which contains the best explanation of USHGRS that I've seen anywhere:

Joe Faust wrote:DMarley,
Your note seems to be missing facts, assuming what is not fact, and then building statements on assumptions or beliefs that miss the mark about USHGRS.

1. USHGRS is not a club, not an association, but an agency for certifying recreational hang glider ratings proposed by facts witnessed. There is no memberships offered nor accepted. The agent is independent of other entities. One does not join USHGRS, dead or alive. USHGRS goes through a profound checking process. One cannot obtain a statement of a rating by virtue of asking or applying. One may submit data on one's behalf or on the behalf of another recreational pilot as an instructor, observer, mentor, airman, etc. Submitting data about a recreational pilot--dead or alive--does not force a production of a rating process; but if a rating process occurs resulting in a statement by USHGRS, then that pilot has for life and beyond a rating stated by USHGRS. 

2. From the beginning of hang gliding history pilots ---dead or alive---have been rated . USHGRS continues that strong historically based tradition. 

3. So far, only one rated pilot asked for a taking off their Pilot Page some image and non-core information about themselves. USHGRS will respond to requests with careful consideration. 

4. USHGRS adds statements in Pilot Pages and on the indexing lists only after a recreational hang glider pilot has shown public recreational hang gliding activity. It is the aim of USHGRS to rate to H0 through H4 only every pilot that shows evidence of having a flight connection with the airspace over the United States or its possessions. USHGRS keeps an interest in deceased recreational hang glider pilots. 

5. USHGRS has no need to ask a dead or alive recreational pilot whether they want or want not to be rated for hang gliding proficiency. But USHGRS receives requests for being rated. 

6. It is beneficial and honorable to pay attention to recreational hang glider pilots who have died; certifying their hang gliding rating is part of the mission of USHGRS. 

7. There are three sections to the USHGRS Pilot Page: a. Statement of rating that has been certified. b. Data supplied by the subject pilot that is fit for public display; we hold unpublished information not fit for public display; the submitter has much to say about what goes in that section or not. c. Information that might enhance interest in the subject pilot. 

8. The third section on the Pilot Page is about enhancing interest; that section does not necessarily affect USHGRS certification process; rather, the video links and links to articles and documents in that section may not have been part of the certification process. 

9. That USHGRS states a certified rating for a pilot does not mean anything about endorsement or not. USHGRS trades nothing for its certification processing. USHGRS is blind to endorsements or non endorsements. There is no essential need to ask a pilot if she or he is going to be rating certified by USHGRS; if the pilot has shown publicly, then they are potentially in the view of USHGRS rating certification domain. 

10. Doug, you are invited to start a case about your rating with USHGRS. A case file has not yet been started about your rating. But it may get opened soon; an email from you to ratings@USHGRS.org would trigger opening a case file leading to a certified rating statement and construction of a Pilot Page about you. Send data and have others send data about you; records from your instructors, mentors, observers, and examiners are receivables for the USHGRS process. And documents and links to information that surround you are welcome for USHGRS review for possible placement in the second and third section of the Pilot Page. You are welcome to trigger the process. sooner or later. 

Honor your fathers and mothers; honor those who have gone before us and who live yet , though deceased. To forget Volmer Jensen or Larry Tudor would be a great loss. USHGRS aims to keep the won assets of recreational hang gliding alive to all who are concerned. Doug, you are welcome to submit interesting links about Larry or other HG pilots; USHGRS is not responsible for what history is showing about pilots. 

I hope I have addressed your concerns; if not, we may go another round on any point in hopes to clarify matters. You are invited to reach to see what is the case before leaping to fly dark statements. Reach for potential light and hold out for a perspective that may be helpful. 

Lifts, 
Joe Faust
for teaming at USHGRS
Just occurring: 
PS: HGpilots/DouglasMarley.html has been constructed; the content will develop over time.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Thanks for your good works Joe!!!!    :salute:
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Re: USHGRS

Postby Rick Masters » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:01 pm

DMarley on Sep 13, 2018 at 9:26 am wrote:
Joe...
You're club is appearing to be more and more ill-conceived and ill-guided.


Revolutionary idea, Joe. Major kudos.
I don't know how long it will take some people to figure out that USHGRS ain't not you're club but a generic rating system.
Perhaps you should put the letters "RS" in the name for "Rating System."
Oh, you already did?
Duh!         :lol: :clap: :srofl:
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