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Joe Faust banned from hanggliding.org

https://ushawks.org:443/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3053

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Joe Faust banned from hanggliding.org

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:04 pm
by Bob Kuczewski
Jack Axaopoulos (sg) deleted Joe's last post and banned him in the USHGRS topic (now in the "basement") at hanggliding.org:

http://forum.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=36135

Read through that topic and see if you can figure out where Joe did anything to get banned. You'll find that Joe was staying right on topic. Jack was violating Jack's own rules by mentioning me, but Joe didn't take the bait. Jack banned him anyway.

Moderator's Note (January 6th, 2019): The banning of USHGA founder Joe Faust from hanggliding.org has been a seismic event. It has spawned a large number of related topics and posts. The following related links (ordered by date) have been added for the reader's convenience:

Re: Joe Faust banned from hanggliding.org

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:19 pm
by Bob Kuczewski
I believe this is the post that was deleted from hanggliding.org when Joe was banned:

Joe Faust wrote:sg,

1. This topic thread is not about HGRS. This topic is specifically about USHGRS which you recognized in your next sentence. Thank you.

2. Your language is a bit raw as you put adjectives over a rating service entity. Nice example. Consider just analyzing the USHGRS; perhaps given suggestions, as in part you are doing. 

3. You apparently want the team at USHGRS not to certify ratings for found public-domain pilots' hang gliding just because they at some point in time do not want to be be publicly present by facts in USHGRS. When USHGRS certifies a ratiing, the statement is simple: H0, ..., H4. What is the problem in reflecting public-domain core matter about our sport? Pilots are listed in many venues: clubs, associations, newspapers, magazines, site-user lists, public forums and more. The essence of USHGRS is its independence; it cannot be bought or swayed for its certification process; it would easily lose trust and respect if it cowed to the winds of this or that flow. Fellow pilots and site managers and land owners and authors would not respect certification agent that could be bought my the pushes and shoves of you or the next vector. USHGRS aims to stay a trusted rating certification agent for recreational hang gliding, a tool in service of sg's goals, I believe. 

Best,
Joe Faust
teaming for USHGRS

PS: sg, The banning policy was mentioned as controversial, not you.


After that post was deleted (and Joe banned), the topic was immediately locked and put in "The Basement". Jack has claimed that topics go into the basement through some kind of voting process, but he's refused to provide any details. I suspect that he just does it when it suits him.

This is another example of why the sport of hang gliding is in such a dismal situation. Joe Faust is a true visionary for imagining and implementing an objective national hang gliding rating system (USHGRS). But the people in power (like USHPA, Jack, and Davis) won't tolerate it.

As Rick Masters said, hang gliding isn't dying, it's being murdered.

Re: Joe Faust banned from hanggliding.org

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:16 pm
by JoeF
sg also programmed his entire forum over the term "USHGRS" to publish as "INVOLUNTARYLIST".
And he also programmed the link to USHGRS to go to a non existent misleading web domain rather than the factual domain for USHGRS. Such obliteration of the discussion must be some kind of crime against his readers, visitors, the hang gliding community, and to the time many posters put in to discuss USHGRS.
sg, "Tear down the wall!"

He cut into a topic and then destroyed the discussion. Not nice.
======================================================

One poster seemed to have a veiled threat against my person. sg did not seem to discipline such matter.
404982veiledthreatagainstmDMcommentedover.jpg
404982veiledthreatagainstmDMcommentedover.jpg (92.89 KiB) Viewed 7596 times

Re: Joe Faust banned from hanggliding.org

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:29 pm
by Bob Kuczewski
Wow!!    :shock:

It looks like this is what you posted:

Let involuntarylist possibly file your HG ratings and special skills.
U.S. only.
United States Hang Gliding Rating System
independent of
clubs, corporations, associations, schools, instructors, businesses
to fulfill self-regulation per FAR 103
for recreational hang gliding in the U.S

http://involuntarylist.org


But that's not what you actually wrote?!? :shock: :shock:

Re: Joe Faust banned from hanggliding.org

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:10 am
by Rick Masters
On December 1, 2011, Joe was locked out of his topic on Paragliding Forum.
http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=42918&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150

Everett Greel had died on a paraglider at Ed Levin two weeks before, becoming the 1,055th paragliding fatality that I am aware of.

Shortly before locking the thread, soaring parachutist and future president of the USHPA posted:
Pmurdoch:
Point being, you are a hypocrite. You present one face on this forum, but quite another when you think no one is watching. You insist on re-naming everything about our sport, including the craft itself. Yet when CBS dares call a PG by another name, or you by your given name, you go apoplectic. So, yes. I'll ignore your request. f#@% off, Joseph. Go away. Stuff your hallucinogen-induced drawings and ravings up your Giuseppe Sector. No one is buying it here.

and
Pmurdoch:
Astonishingly, Joe is able to speak clearly, in full sentences, and without thunderous bloviating fuckery in just one situation:
Specifically, on forums other than this one, when he is calling into question PG safety, and directing the unsuspecting masses to Rick Master's website.
http://web.archive.org/web/20120321165848/http://www.cometclones.com:80/
I would surmise that Joe is both bat s*** crazy, and having us on. It is a simply brilliant strategy.

and
Pmurdoch
Joe has an agenda. He purports to be on an innocent quest for knowledge here. But on many other forums, news sites, even Wikipedia, Joe is a different character. On those other sites, Joe speaks quite clearly. He warns against the dangers of paragliding, and directs people to Rick Master's website. If you don't know of Rick Masters, count yourself lucky. On Wikipedia, he has had an ongoing battle with editors to include out-of context info about PG incidents, and other prejudiced information. Wiki editors appeared to be ready to boot him. Joe is on a mission here. He is being disingenuous. We've all tried to engage him earnestly at one point and it hasn't worked. So now we may appear to be bullying. But really, we are just tired of his nonsense.

When I posted a detailed paragliding fatality list on Wikipedia: Paragliding, two soaring parachutists from Paragliding Forum became "editors" on Wikipedia and relentlessly attacked and removed any information I posted. Joe was banned from posting on Wikipedia in October 2011.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Joefaust#Topic_ban_is_recognized.

Apparently, when USHPA drops the hammer, the thread gets locked on their three doppleganger forums and Wikipedia.

Joe had steadily been defending the concept of the Paragliding Dead Man's Curve since I presented it on June 23, 2009 on Paragliding Forum and Oz Report.
http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=25711
Subsequently, I was banned from posting in both forums. On the date of that posting, Boris Lukanin of Russia became the 817th paragliding fatality. Another 919 soaring parachutists would die by the time Joe was kicked off the recent topic on HangGliding.org following the USHPA Director at Large Mark Forbes dismissive comment.

It has been clear to me for a long time that USHPA is behind the banning of safety discussions involving paragliding. The only forum where I can post this information is US Hawks. Pilots who want the truth have to come here.

Losing hundreds more participants of a recreational sport than went down with the Titanic is true horror. The actions of the doppelganger forum owners and moderators in limitiing these safety discussions are reprehensible. Hang glider pilots should wake up, pull the wool off their eyes and realize how deeply they are being played and used. Those thinking about takng up paragliding should be afraid. USHPA is there for the money, not for the membership.

Re: Joe Faust banned from hanggliding.org

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:27 am
by SamKellner
Rick Masters wrote:You scared them, Joe.
USHGRS could make USHPA a paragliding club with a magazine.
So the hammer came down from above.


  YES  

Re: Joe Faust banned from hanggliding.org

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:33 pm
by Bob Kuczewski
Here's what Joe posted (original in blue)::

Let USHGRS possibly file your HG ratings and special skills.
U.S. only.
United States Hang Gliding Rating System
independent of
clubs, corporations, associations, schools, instructors, businesses
to fulfill self-regulation per FAR 103
for recreational hang gliding in the U.S

http://USHGRS.org


Here's how Jack Axaopoulos changed it (changes in red):

Let involuntarylist possibly file your HG ratings and special skills.
U.S. only.
United States Hang Gliding Rating System
independent of
clubs, corporations, associations, schools, instructors, businesses
to fulfill self-regulation per FAR 103
for recreational hang gliding in the U.S

http://involuntarylist.org


Jack didn't change just that one post. He changed every post by anyone on the entire site.

How can anyone trust what's on hanggliding.org ever again?
How can anyone trust Jack Axaopoulos ever again?

Re: Joe Faust banned from hanggliding.org

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:34 pm
by Rick Masters
A SHORT LETTER TO USHPA HANG GLIDER PILOTS

I've always wanted to say this.
    I've heard way too many assassination attacks on BobK from both pathetic USHPA HG doppleganger sites.
    I watched the assassination attack by USHPA on BobK with extreme distaste.
    I've never met BobK but I've talked to him on the phone.
    I don't dislike BobK. He takes the obligations of citizenship seriously.
    I respect that.
    Even if I don't like the legal outcome, as an American, I have to respect his fortitude.
    He is an Army Ranger, you know. Don't expect him to back down when he is right.
    Because being an American trumps being an idiot. And Rangers don't back down. Ever.
    But if I did dislike BobK, for whatever reason - as a USHPA hang glider pilot, which I am not and will never be, I simply would not vote for him to be a Regional USHPA Director.
    And that's it. That's all.
    If you don't like how a vote turns out - if you think the vote was messed with - then petition for a re-count or re-vote and send the miscreant back to the membership with his tail between his legs.
    It's called democracy and it works.
    But now, I see that even this is not important to many of you people.
    Like one of Pavlov's dogs, aparently it is sufficient to condemn a fellow member out of court and out of hand when someone else holding all the cards rings his bell.
    Even worse, you're about to relinquish any power you have left.
    Now I see that you're giving up even your castrated and inadequate representation to a slyly chosen BOD that will sway toward PG interests every time.
    Because money talks and hang gliding walks.
    Incredible.
    I see this in the sheepish acceptance of the stifling of important conversation at your doppleganger sites.
    But this is probably for the best, considering what the USHGA has now become - whatever that is.
    When a hybrid group of dwindling hang glider pilots and an even bigger group of dominating soaring parachutists think they are so freaking big and mean and powerful that they can prevent a hang glider pilot from flying from a USHPA site for any cause other than a safety violation - then they're done.
    If you are in this group, you are done.
    You are toast. You have moved to kill the sport of hang gliding. Not good.
    You haven't figured out the landscape.
    Read FAR 103. Guess what.
    You are each just one another person in my country.
    And like me, that's all you are.
    You have taken your bloated hubris and imaginary schemes of launch appropriation to the penultimate point where one phone call could shatter hang gliding in the USA.
    That's stupid. Are you all such idiots?
    You need to dial it back, not escalate it.
    You are creating the push-back.
    Cut the crap or face the consequences.
    Or we will start over without you.

Re: Joe Faust banned from hanggliding.org

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:56 am
by Bob Kuczewski
Rick Masters wrote:I've heard way too many assassination attacks [....] from both pathetic USHPA HG doppleganger sites.
  :
I see this in the sheepish acceptance of the stifling of important conversation at your doppleganger sites.

It's the "sheepish acceptance of the stifling of important conversation" that I find so disappointing.

Joe Faust was a major force behind the early growth of our sport. Joe Faust founded the organization that became USHPA. Joe just recently came up with the revolutionary idea of independent non-club-affiliated ratings. Joe is one of the nicest and most thoughtful people I know. Joe was banned from hanggliding.org for no justification other than a small vocal group wanted to silence him.This is one of the most egregious violations of ethics I've seen on any forum. And yet no one on hanggliding.org says a word. Not even a peep. I can't say that I don't understand that behavior, but I can say that it disgusts me.

If we - here at US Hawks - do nothing more than separate those who value freedom from those who don't, then we'll have done a good thing. I'm proud to be among those who speak out against injustice. Thanks to each of you.

   :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute:

Re: Joe Faust banned from hanggliding.org

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:49 am
by JoeF
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