[hawk891]

And what about my rights as an owner, publisher, and editor? You are very vocal and brave criticizing me page after page. Why is that fine for you to do in my "living room/coffee shop" but not in Jack's?

It looks like I found my answer in another thread.

So this is in fact just your private forum. All claims to freedom of speech are a lie. Well, you fooled me with all your claims of freedom of speech for a few hours. But now I see the truth. You need to stop promoting this obvious lie. You just claimed this is your living room/coffee shop. I'm basing this on the assumption that Jack is the private owner of another forum.

One big difference between the US Hawks and other organizations is that the US Hawks really does honor the free speech of its members.

This fake form of freedom of speech is what fascists use. It's clearly a lie.


Your FAQ states:

No. Our model is based on freedom of speech and freedom of representation.

Clearly a lie. This is a private forum. "based on" sounds like something a Clinton would say. Giving them an out while pretending something is true.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” - Edmund Burke

[Bob Kuczewski]

Hawk891, you may have missed my previous post because we were simultaneously composing our separate messages. I'm reposting it here for your convenience:

Which is it Bob? Is this your private property, or do we actually have freedom of speech rights, just like our government has recognized of it's citizens? Both are perfectly valid, but you have to walk the talk.

I believe it's well established that web sites like ours (and others) can make their own rules within the limits of the law.

Here's one of our rules: You cannot attack people on this forum without making your real name known.

People who think that's a good rule should stay here and enjoy the U.S. Hawks forum. People who think that's a bad rule should leave.

Let me give you an example. There's another hang gliding web site that you might enjoy named hanggliding.org. Their operator (Jack Axaopolous) has made a rule that if you type "USHGRS" (an acronym for U.S. Hang Gliding Rating System) it will be changed to something else. So people who would like to see their own posts changed should go there and enjoy seeing their posts be changed. Simple, right?

Let me give you another example from that same web site. Their moderator (yes, the same Jack Axaopolous) banned a very good man named Joe Faust who you've met earlier in this topic. All the people who like that Joe Faust is banned should go to hanggliding.org and rejoice that they can post where Joe cannot. People who would like to converse with Joe and don't want to see him be banned should come and enjoy conversing with him on the U.S. Hawks. See how that works?

Let me give you one last example. Some people like to create fake accounts and "sock puppets" to attack and smear others without being responsible for their actions. There are sites (such as hanggliding.org) where that's been known to happen. Even their moderator (Jack Axaopolous - alias "sg") avoids making his real name known. If you like that environment, then you should go to hanggliding.org. We work hard to at least try to minimize that here on the U.S. Hawks. That's why we have a rule that forbids anonymous attacks.

Let's recap ...

• If you want a forum where people can anonymously attack each other, go to hanggliding.org.
• If you want a forum where anonymous attacks are not allowed, then please enjoy the U.S. Hawks.
  
  
• If you want a forum where you can't post the word "USHGRS", then go to hanggliding.org.
• If you would like to support and discuss USHGRS, then you can do so on the U.S. Hawks.
  
  
• If you want to belong to a forum where Joe Faust is banned, then go support hanggliding.org. You'll be among like minded people.
• If you want to belong to a forum that values Joe Faust, then you'll find him at the U.S. Hawks.

BUT ... if you continue to attack our members without giving verifiable proof of your identity ... you will be banned.

[magentabluesky]

Oh Dear God. Save this poest forever.

Which is it Bob? Is this your private property, or do we actually have freedom of speech rights, just like our government has recognized of it's citizens? Both are perfectly valid, but you have to walk the talk.

I believe it's well established that web sites like ours (and others) can make their own rules within the limits of the law.

Here's one of our rules: You cannot attack people on this forum without making your real name known.

People who think that's a good rule should stay here and enjoy the U.S. Hawks forum. People who think that's a bad rule should leave.

Let me give you an example. There's another hang gliding web site that you might enjoy named hanggliding.org. Their operator (Jack Axaopolous) has made a rule that if you type "USHGRS" (an acronym for U.S. Hang Gliding Rating System) it will be changed to something else. So people who would like to see their own posts changed should go there and enjoy seeing their posts be changed. Simple, right?

Let me give you another example from that same web site. Their moderator (yes, the same Jack Axaopolous) banned a very good man named Joe Faust who you've met earlier in this topic. All the people who like that Joe Faust is banned should go to hanggliding.org and rejoice that they can post where Joe cannot. People who would like to converse with Joe and don't want to see him be banned should come and enjoy conversing with him on the U.S. Hawks. See how that works?

Let me give you one last example. Some people like to create fake accounts and "sock puppets" to attack and smear others without being responsible for their actions. There are sites (such as hanggliding.org) where that's been known to happen. Even their moderator (Jack Axaopolous - alias "sg") avoids making his real name known. If you like that environment, then you should go to hanggliding.org. We work hard to at least try to minimize that here on the U.S. Hawks. That's why we have a rule that forbids anonymous attacks.

Let's recap ...

• If you want a forum where people can anonymously attack each other, go to hanggliding.org.
• If you want a forum where anonymous attacks are not allowed, then please enjoy the U.S. Hawks.
  
  
• If you want a forum where you can't post the word "USHGRS", then go to hanggliding.org.
• If you would like to support and discuss USHGRS, then you can do so on the U.S. Hawks.
  
  
• If you want to belong to a forum where Joe Faust is banned, then go support hanggliding.org. You'll be among like minded people.
• If you want to belong to a forum that values Joe Faust, then you'll find him at the U.S. Hawks.

BUT ... if you continue to attack our members without giving verifiable proof of your identity ... you will be banned.

[hawk891]

BUT ... if you continue to attack our members without giving verifiable proof of your identity ... you will be banned.

Proving you are an anti-freedom of speech tyrant and a complete hypocrite Herr Bob

[Bob Kuczewski]

Oh Dear God. Save this poest forever.

I'm a little worried about you Michael. You usually don't make those kinds of careless mistakes. Please take a break and think about what's important in the big picture.

[hawk891]

Submit or you will be banned - Herr Bob

*clicks feet* *goose steps*

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[Bob Kuczewski]

Proving you are an anti-freedom of speech tyrant and a complete hypocrite Herr Bob

No, just restating the truth that Joe has already stated:

Freedom has responsibilities. There is an off-topic freedom of speech section. Be well. Be right to all. Lift, Joe.

[JoeF]

My time is limited for participation in this topic. But I have some time for it. So, I will apply myself within the time constraints that blanket my day.
1. Hawk891, you posted what appeared to be quotation by me; perhaps the quotation marks were rhetorical on your part, but the matter may be worthy of clarification. My "There is an off-topic freedom of speech section." was seemingly rephrased by you to "freedom of speech areas"? Please try to quote accurately. My statement is not identical to your put-up quotation and does not carry the same meaning. To clarify, the tiny corner of the USA called USHawks forum has very many sections in it as a gift of a limited-funded recreational hang glider pilot. Most of the sections of the forum are for a focus on recreational hang gliding. The billions of issues in the world do not form the focus of a constrained place to deal with recreational hang gliding. My statement concerned the gratuitous section were the off-topic billions of issues (not recreational hang gliding) may have a space for airing. Simple statement of structure. There is that section; use that section for any of billions of topics that are or are not recreational hang gliding. Consider being thankful for the gift of that section; some people will use that section and some people will not use that section; the funder of that section has invited people to use that section.

Perhaps FAQs need tweaking. The Board might do well to look into some phrases. Obviously, the responsibility of stewardship over recreational hang gliding text in a forum cannot succeed if the forum had to singularly carry the whole weight of billions of people's wish to publish anything on any topic in the Universe. Practically, logistically, the huge text potential for non-recreational-hang-gliding needs to be carried by other forums and other avenues of publication or discourse: street, newspapers, magazines, pamphlets, other-focused forums, radio, TV, wide Internet, etc. Losing focus and having no moderation constraints for a fine-tuned-focused recreational forum allows destroyers to fill up the limited-time-space that focused visitors have. RHG (recreational hang gliding) visitors time-and-attention budget is limited; newly posted text in the dedicated focused forum is generally supposed to support RHG, so a visitor spends some time and attention to see what is up in the texts. When off-RHG matter increases a visitor's cost on non-RHG matters, that visitor may have to practically just not visit. Destroyers of dedicated forums is not a new game.

So, Hawk891, please politely respect the RHG focus; use the section for non-RHG if you wish to gather fellows to discuss non-RHG issues; for now the bandwidth is available for some non-RHG matters, but respect the time and attention of visitors by doing the non-RHG matter in the non-RHG-matter section.

As my time permits, I will march forward to address some of your other concerns. But for now, please take care to properly represent my quotations and avoid misquoting.

=============
A moment on a next point. Hawk891, honoring the free speech of others is carried out by the owner of this forum is partly carried out by his gratuitous offering of a section for non-RHG topics. That is one way he honors free speech within his limited-space-forum gift. You declared that I was in violation of some matter; you brought forward one question-answer from the FAQ section. You did not fine tune how you came to your conclusion that I was in violation; so, facing that fuzziness, I try here to face the accusation. The top part of this post may be applied; responsible respect for free speech would respect RHG visitors' time and space in the RHG section; and non-RHG speech or text has been given a gift in the section for such. My declaring simply that such a section exists does not seem to violate anything.

=====
Hawk891, each person has their sensibilities. Each tiny artistic corner of activity has its limitations of service. Trying to force my little home to be the residence for a billion people would not work; there is room in my home for about 20 people; at 20 people, the City would still shut the home down for failing to operate up to someone's health standards; so, I limit my home to four persons sometimes and two persons most of the time. My home is designated as a two-bedroom ranch-style house. If you want the USHawks forum to be more than RHG and give space for the billions of issues that are non-RHG, then you are probably not going to succeed. And if you aim to to require the forum here to be perfected to your perspective, then that probably won't succeed. An imperfect foundation is slowly forming a focused-RHG place. Attacks on this small effort to get an effective forum may come from very many sources; it is a continual effort to face attacks that work against the primary RHG focus. So, you are included with all others to face this challenge; if your quest seems off-RHG, then please consider not costing the visitors to this forum who spent their time and attention in expectation of RHG matter. Thank you, in advance.

=======
Hawk891, your posts move me as an advisory board member to put up a motion for having your post access be in the section of the forum that is dedicated to non-RHG matters; you will then be able to post in that section and not other sections. Not giving your real name while attacking persons might draw a full ban.

  I move for the Board of Advisors to have Hawk891's post space be only in the non-RHG section of the forum.  

[hawk891]

Dear Joe,

Any form of freedom of speech pen is an abomination to real freedom of speech. I looked, and this site indeed has a fascist style freedom of speech area. You cannot claim freedom of speech rights and then require people to stand in a special government approved square, pen or sub-forum.

Herr Bob seems to think this is fine, but considering his pattern of behavior, and his failing in civics class, that is not surprising.

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[hawk891]

Proving you are an anti-freedom of speech tyrant and a complete hypocrite Herr Bob

No, just restating the truth that Joe has already stated:

Freedom has responsibilities. There is an off-topic freedom of speech section. Be well. Be right to all. Lift, Joe.

Restating a useless statement just makes it useless again. Of course there is responsibility in freedom of speech. That is completely different than denying them, threatening to ban people and silencing them completely, and giving some users more freedom of speech rights than others. Is Warren a straight man? Why are you claiming he has more freedom of speech rights than me when everyone knows the 1st amendment is meant to protect the oppressed who wish to remain anonymous? Do straight men get more freedom of speech than gay men on this site?

Please explain Herr Bob. Your fascist form of fake freedom of speech is an abomination. The founders of this great nation are most certainly rolling in their graves