[magentabluesky]

Should US Hawks require real names?

Bob Kuczewski stated to Hawk891:

“Here's one of our rules: You cannot attack people on this forum without making your real name known.”

This seems to be a contradiction to the rule you, Bob Kuczewski, put up for a vote on May 05, 2016 stating:

“I further move that we encourage people to use their real names, but not require it.”

The US Hawks Board passed your motion not requiring participants in the forum to use their real names.

You then banned Hawk891 for not coming out with his real name.

Hawk891 gave you a valid reason for not coming out with his real name as he did not want his Christian parents to know he was gay.

While as a publisher and editor, you are responsible for the content of the material on your web site you as publisher and editor cannot discriminate on the basis of sex, race, national origin, religion, age, disability, and sexual orientation is being accepted as being included in “sex” discrimination.

The US Hawks has no published rule for a poster using his/her real name.

The US Hawks has no published rule for a poster discussing his/her sexual orientation (be careful with the law doing that).

The only remedy for Hawk891 would be the courts, but then too he would have to come out.

Many people may see this as unfair and discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Should US Hawks require real names?

Re: Should US Hawks require real names?
by Bob Kuczewski » Thu May 05, 2016 9:33 pm
Good discussion, gentlemen. And an excellent expose of both sides of the coin there Bill.

Here's my motion, but I welcome some tailoring if I've missed something:

I move that the US Hawks modify it's Forum to allow for spaces in names.
I further move that we encourage people to use their real names, but not require it.
I further move that the Administrator (me) shall add spaces to user names as requested.
I further move that the Administrator (me) change the user name "bobk" to "Bob Kuczewski".

Do I hear a second or any friendly amendments?
Link

Sam Keller second Bob’s Motion
Bill Cummings voted yes for the Motion
Bob Kuczewski voted yes for the Motion
Scott Wise as wingspan33 voted yes for the Motion
Frank Colver voted yes for the Motion

Hello Hawk891,

So far your speech has been unfettered. But we do have a long standing rule that attacks cannot be made anonymously. You'll notice that people either use their real names or have satisfied us that their real names are known. For example, it's well known that "Free" is Warren Narron. In some cases we have asked for additional verification of identity such as a phone number associated with your real name.

You are welcome to remain anonymous if you like, but then you cannot use your account to attack others. We have witnessed too many fake users posting as "sock puppets" on other forums. That's not fair to the people who do give their real names.

Your posts so far have been clearly critical of Joe Faust, and yet you have not provided your real name. That's fine at this point because you've not been aware of the rule. You are now.

If you would like to talk about hang gliding issues, you're welcome to do so in the main forum. If you want to talk about non hang gliding issues we do have a "Free Speech Zone" for that.

Thank you, and welcome again to the U.S. Hawks.

Can I get a 2nd, that Joe is horribly wrong about his statist "freedom of speech areas"??? This is what fascist regimes set up, so they can claim they believe in freedom of speech while doing exactly the opposite.

Link

I believe it's well established that web sites like ours (and others) can make their own rules within the limits of the law.

Here's one of our rules: You cannot attack people on this forum without making your real name known.

People who think that's a good rule should stay here and enjoy the U.S. Hawks forum. People who think that's a bad rule should leave.
Link

[JoeF]

Michael,
How about development from the general 2016 generalize notion to the realization of a special need for taking responsibility for discussing another person? I am not sure what "attack" means. Personal attacks are generally poor form, my take; hopefully ideas, principles, designs, issues in themselves seem more than enough for recreational hang gliding to discuss, exclaim, celebrate, alter, deepen, etc.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Michael,

Here's my quote from one of your other topics (it's hard to keep track of them all).

Please pardon my interruption ...

These are two quotes (from 2012 and 2014) where our policy of requiring real names of people who attack others is both published and explained. This policy predates the establishment of the U.S. Hawks Advisory Board of Directors, so it was implicitly approved when the Board was established. There have been no motions to change this policy.

Sep 23, 2012 12:38 pm
https://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php ... 5239#p5239

The US Hawks has a policy that we do not allow attacks by anonymous members who do not give their names. So if anyone wants to come here and attack you (or anyone else), then they'll have to give their real name or be restricted to the "Free Speech Zone".

Nov 19, 2014 12:22 pm
https://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php ... 8599#p8599

Hello Steve (cc Tad),

I've been having a conversation with Tad regarding your reinstatement to the general US Hawks forum.

As you may remember, I took the position that people should not be allowed to attack others on our forum without people knowing who they actually are ... in real life. That's why I restricted your posting to the "Free Speech Zone" on our forum.

I've seen too many forums where "puppet" users are created to make it appear that there are lots of people with a particular view, when the reality was that they were just a bunch of aliases for one person. In fact, I was personally told this by someone doing that exact thing on the hanggliding.org forum. I am hoping to do something better on the US Hawks forum.

So I've arrived at my own policy to avoid that situation. My policy is that I want to have a reasonable certainty of the identity of each person who is engaging in any significant personal attacks against others. I currently do that with at least one phone call (possibly more). It's not a perfect system, but I think it's better than what we see on most of the other national forums. I stand behind giving people a public voice, but only if they're willing to stand behind it as well.

I welcome the chance to discuss this with you, and you are welcome to call me any time at 858-204-7499.

Thanks for signing up with the US Hawks.

Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski

Please continue your discussion with the understanding that our policy of prohibiting anonymous attacks has been well established for many years. That's why "hawk891" was restricted to the "Free Speech Zone". And once restricted, "hawk891" then elevated the level of attack to where it violated the terms of service that were agreed to and was banned.

Michael, for you to compare our careful, thoughtful and fair process to Jack's actions against Joe shows a severe lack of judgement on your part. My best advice to you is to reconsider what your recent outbursts have done to your previously sterling reputation. You've hitched your wagon to an ill-concieved position that you can't defend. It's time to turn around.

With best intentions ...
Bob Kuczewski

The 2016 policy discussion you quoted above was to require real names of ALL members. That would have been in addition to the existing policy of requiring that real names be known when attacks are made.

Even though this rule has been published since at least 2012, I still made the additional effort to explicitly inform hawk891 of the rule in the text you've quoted. Thanks for documenting that for us.

[magentabluesky]

Wow, Bob, thanks for informing us of the US Hawks policy.

Where is the concise notification of the “US Hawks Policies” to the public?

Take some responsibility, Bob Kuczewski.

See my post under Re: Bob’s Motion to ban hawk891

[Bob Kuczewski]

Wow, Bob, thanks for informing us of the US Hawks policy.

Where is the concise notification of the “US Hawks Policies” to the public?

Take some responsibility, Bob Kuczewski.

See my post under Re: Bob’s Motion to ban hawk891

Michael, I repeated the policy twice to "hawk891" before any action was taken. You've documented my statement of that policy in your own quote:

Bob Kuczewski stated to Hawk891:

“Here's one of our rules: You cannot attack people on this forum without making your real name known.”

Hello Hawk891,

So far your speech has been unfettered. But we do have a long standing rule that attacks cannot be made anonymously. You'll notice that people either use their real names or have satisfied us that their real names are known. For example, it's well known that "Free" is Warren Narron. In some cases we have asked for additional verification of identity such as a phone number associated with your real name.

You are welcome to remain anonymous if you like, but then you cannot use your account to attack others. We have witnessed too many fake users posting as "sock puppets" on other forums. That's not fair to the people who do give their real names.

Your posts so far have been clearly critical of Joe Faust, and yet you have not provided your real name. That's fine at this point because you've not been aware of the rule. You are now.

If you would like to talk about hang gliding issues, you're welcome to do so in the main forum. If you want to talk about non hang gliding issues we do have a "Free Speech Zone" for that.

Thank you, and welcome again to the U.S. Hawks.

I had given references to that policy dating back to 2012, but it went back further than that. Here's my quote from December 30th, 2010 (four and a half months after the U.S. Hawks was founded):

The founders of our country came up with a process for justice that always involves the right to face one's accusers. If you're going to say things that damage someone else's reputation, you should have the integrity to stand behind your words. My mother always taught me "Never say something behind someone's back that you wouldn't say to their face". The internet has enabled far too many people to say whatever they want about others with no accountability. You should not be using the real names of real people like Sara Martin or Mark Webber if you're not willing to use your own real name. If you really want your concerns to be taken seriously, then you'll have to find the courage to stand behind what you've said. That's what this country was built on.

Declaration.jpg (35.66 KiB) Viewed 4631 times

[magentabluesky]

Public Notification after the discussion started spinning out of control.

How about some preemptive Public Notification, like a “US Hawks Policy” Page.

Bob, dragging out the dead cat with the post “Sara AKA redsagebear” is a demonstration of a complete lack of empathy to prove your point. My suggestion is to put the dead cat back in the closet.

The discussion is about notifying the Public of your Policy before the discussion spins out of control.

You and the US Hawks Board are the owners, publishers, editors, and are the absolute authority of the US Hawks, taking full responsibility for the content on the US Hawks.

You don’t have to prove it to me by dragging out the dead cats.

Own it.

[Bob Kuczewski]

You and the US Hawks Board are the owners, publishers, editors, and are the absolute authority of the US Hawks, taking full responsibility for the content on the US Hawks.

No. I am all of those things, and I take responsibility. The U.S. Hawks Board is advisory. They do not have responsibility. I do.

You don’t have to prove it to me by dragging out the dead cats.

Your disrespectful reference to Sara is disgusting. That incident happened in 2010 before you joined the U.S. Hawks in the spring of 2011, so you didn't go through that struggle as we did.

There was an important lesson in that topic. The lesson is that anonymous speech is too easily abused by underhanded and dishonest people. We saw it in 2010 and we've seen it again in 2019. Thanks to the good advice by people like Warren, we were much better prepared in 2019.

Public Notification after the discussion started spinning out of control.

How about some preemptive Public Notification, like a “US Hawks Policy” Page.

Bob, dragging out the dead cat with the post “Sara AKA redsagebear” is a demonstration of a complete lack of empathy to prove your point. My suggestion is to put the dead cat back in the closet.

The discussion is about notifying the Public of your Policy before the discussion spins out of control.

You and the US Hawks Board are the owners, publishers, editors, and are the absolute authority of the US Hawks, taking full responsibility for the content on the US Hawks.

You don’t have to prove it to me by dragging out the dead cats.

Own it.

[magentabluesky]

Bob, you have a comprehension problem.

My reference of “dragging out the dead cat” is directed to the “post” you resurrected and not to Sara or about Sara.

My point is I would never have resurrected the post to prove a point. If you had any empathy and understood what empathy is, you as the editor should remove your post out of respect for Sara in my humble opinion.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Bob, you have a comprehension problem.

My reference of “dragging out the dead cat” is directed to the “post” you resurrected and not to Sara or about Sara.

I comprehend you very well Michael.

And it turns my stomach every time.

My point is I would have not ever resurrected the post to prove a point. If you had any empathy and understood what empathy is, you as the editor should remove your post out of respect for Sara in my humble opinion.

I think there is no better way to honor Sara than to remember and oppose the injustices that were done to her. Those injustices were done by anonymous cowards like "hawk891". When we formally document the "no anonymous attacks" rule (which I agree we should do), I'll suggest that we call it "Sara's Rule" in her memory.

Michael, the rules we have at the U.S. Hawks weren't pulled out of a hat or made up on the spot as Jack does. They evolved over many years with many struggles. You arrived at the U.S. Hawks after many of those issues were resolved, so I can't fault you for not knowing that history. But you know it now, and I think it's time that you show some respect for what Joe, Scott, Warren, Sam, Bill, and many others have worked to build here. If you can't find your way to do so, then I suggest that the U.S. Hawks is not for you.

[magentabluesky]

And it turns my stomach every time.

Then why would you bring the story into the discussion to prove your point?

The point you are justifying with the story, you should already own as the owner of the US Hawks.

The focus of the discussion is to pre notify posters of the US Hawks Policy on a policy page.

I am not challenging your authority to make policy. It is your website.

It seems to me if you pre notify new and existing posters you may preemptively avoid conflicts where discussions spin out of control.

One of Hawk891’s complaints was, he was not notified of Bob’s policies.

On the other hand Jack makes it clear as to what Jack’s rules are and Joe reposted Jacks rules on the US Hawks for all to see, including Joe.

The US Hawks is your website Bob, take responsibility.