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Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:02 am

On hanggliding.org, remmoore wrote:

"Our strength is in the electronic media." ... "where we keep ourselves updated, educated, and entertained." ... "where no editor can wave us away."

Unfortunately, remmoore was wrong about the "no editor can wave us away" part. The current electronic hang gliding media (http://hanggliding.org and http://ozreport.com) are exactly the places where single individuals can wave anyone away. Jack and Davis can silence anyone they don't like, and they have both done so repeatedly.

It's especially ironic that Jack should rail against USHPA (in that same topic) when his own actions have perpetuated USHPA's monopoly. I started the HGAA and we had built up a lot of interest and momentum in that new organization. But Jack killed it because everything didn't go his way. Look at the early days of the HGAA (under Scott's steady leadership) and you'll find lots of energy, ideas, and enthusiasm. Sure, that's going to bring arguments about what's best, but those arguments are healthy and necessary to build a solid organization on a solid footing. Unfortunately, Jack squelched that organization and kicked out some of its founders and best leaders. What was the result? Go to the HGAA today (http://www.hangglidingassociationofamerica.org/forum) and look at the most recent dates in the "HGAA Business" section:

    Work Forum: Jason - February 2011
    Brainstorm Forum: Anadactyl - October 2010
    Policies and Procedures: Anadactyl - November 2010


The last post on the entire forum was April 5th, 2011 (nearly 2 months ago) by Jack (sg) himself. But even that topic wasn't about building the HGAA - it was mostly about bashing me.

So while Jack Axaopoulos (sg) and John Wright (knumbknuts) claimed that getting rid of Bob and Scott would help build the HGAA, it turns out they were exactly wrong. Kicking people out didn't strengthen the HGAA, it killed it. If nothing else, that dismal episode proved that Jack Axaopoulos and John Wright were poor leaders. Rather than leading the HGAA to a bright future they lead it right into the ground. But even worse, they used that episode to expel long-time hang gliding supporters from hanggliding.org and ended up further fracturing the hang gliding community.

It's clear that if we want to protect hang gliding in the future, we're going to need an organization that's dedicated to hang gliding. We're also going to need an organization that can harness the skills of every last pilot - especially those who've shown the passion to contribute. Banning people like Bob, Scott, and Tad (three strong contributors) has only helped to ensure USHPA's monopoly. Jack and Davis have done exactly what USHPA would have wanted them to do.

Finally, as I read those two largest forums, I'm not optimistic about improving the situation. Other than a brief flash in the pan, I haven't seen any serious call for fairness or reform on either forum. Instead, some of the most enthusiastic and sincere contributors continue to be silenced and isolated. The power that Jack and Davis hold over the community may be insurmountable.

Bob Kuczewski
June 2, 2011

remmoore wrote:Our strength is in the electronic media. BB's such as this, combined with YouTube and Vimeo are out there for public consumption, and I'm sure we get more notice electronically than the mag ever did. is where we keep ourselves updated, educated, and entertained. is where no editor can wave us away. The mag means very little to most of us now - only a little regret that we let this marginilization begin in the first place...
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby TadEareckson » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:34 am

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/02/18

Wow!!! Great forum Zack!!

It's very cool that you would do this for a friend who had been banned. My hat is off to you and your respect of free speech.

For your information, I started a forum this past summer called USHawks.org, and I'd like to know if you would mind me linking to this forum (in the "Affiliates" area where HGAUSA is also listed). I agree with a lot of what you've suggested about Tad's blunt way of presenting information. But I also agree that it's very often good information, and I believe it (and he) deserves to be heard. So thanks to you for giving him this platform, and I hope you don't mind if I link to it on US Hawks.

Also, in case you're interested, I'm hoping that the US Hawks Hang Gliding Association will eventually become what the USHGA started out to be ... an association of pilots and for pilots. You're welcome to join us, and the best part is that it's free.

Wikipedia - Rule Of Law

In 1776, the notion that no one is above the law was popular during the founding of the United States, for example Thomas Paine wrote in his pamphlet Common Sense that "in America, the law is king. For as in absolute governments the King is law, so in free countries the law ought to be king; and there ought to be no other." In 1780, John Adams enshrined this principle in the Massachusetts Constitution by seeking to establish "a government of laws and not of men."

A couple of days ago when I was on Kite Strings debunking yet another load of crap on a Jack Show thread it really sunk in and hit me how completely futile any effort to pull hang gliding out of the sewer its participants have put it in. Any way you look at the numbers and do the math the line on the graph tilts slightly to the lower right.

"An association of pilots and for pilots" sounds like a good idea. So did communism. A lot of the most intelligent, socially concerned, altruistic, highly principled people in the world jumped on the wagon with the best of intentions. And the INEVITABLE result was - and always will be - Stalinism.

Pilots are men (mostly - and the other gender doesn't do any better), men are extremely stupid, and pilots are pretty close to the bottom of the heap - only capable of what they've been programmed to do by other knuckle draggers. Aviation controlled by and for pilots always has been and will always be a bloodbath.

In an association of and for pilots - just as in communism - the scum will INEVITABLY rise to the top, consolidate, and stay there. The Soviet Union got Uncle Joe, China got Chairman Mao, and hang gliding got USHGA, Davis, Jack, and Jim Rooney.

And perhaps the only way you can make aviation even more dangerous than allowing pilots to control it is to value and respect free speech.

It is now clearly against federal law to teach or give credibility to fairy tales in public school biology classrooms (although I guess it's still legal to appoint a Department of the Interior Secretary whose resource management policy is based on Book of Revelation predictions) - but in hang gliding...

With free speech you INEVITABLY get obscene, deadly lies like...

Wallaby

If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

Remember: it is almost impossible to stall under aerotow. The induced thrust vector makes the glider trim at a higher attitude. It is OK to push way out; you will climb, not stall.

In an excessive out-of position situation, the weak link will snap before the control authority of the glider would be lost.

Quest

Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider.

Pagen/Bryden

Weak links have greatly improved the safety of towing over the years.

Weak links very clearly will provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for this form of towing.

,,,and diabolically Orwellian "regulations" like...

USHGA

A release must be placed at the hang glider end of the tow line within easy reach of the pilot.

A couple of Sundays ago I was at the annual airshow at Andrews staring at a B-29 with my jaw hanging down at about knee level and thinking about how incredibly fast aviation advances when we're using planes to kill each other and the teams are matched evenly enough such that a very high percentage of the planes that take off don't land.

Picture a war fought with sky darkening fleets of hang gliders (we've only got enough gas to them up to thermal workable altitudes to get them started on their recon, bombing, and intercept missions). Weak link strengths would quadruple within the first half hour, releases would be as built in, functional, and easily operable as VG systems by Day Two, and Davis, Jack, and Rooney would all have been fragged well before the end of Day Three.

But none of that's ever gonna happen 'cause pilots are comfortable enough as long as fatality percentage rates are down in the single digit range.

Wikipedia - Ernest King

Fleet Admiral Ernest Joseph King (1878/11/23–1956/06/25) was Commander in Chief, United States Fleet and Chief of Naval Operations (COMINCH-CNO) during World War II. As COMINCH, he directed the United States Navy's operations, planning, and administration and was a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He was the U.S. Navy's second most senior officer after Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, and the second admiral to be promoted to five star rank. As COMINCH, he served under Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox and later under James Forrestal.

In 1932 he attended the Naval War College. In a war college thesis entitled "The Influence of National Policy on Strategy", King expounded on the theory that America's weakness was Representative democracy:

"Historically... it is traditional and habitual for us to be inadequately prepared. Thus is the combined result of a number factors, the character of which is only indicated: democracy, which tends to make everyone believe that he knows it all; the preponderance (inherent in democracy) of people whose real interest is in their own welfare as individuals; the glorification of our own victories in war and the corresponding ignorance of our defeats (and disgraces) and of their basic causes; the inability of the average individual (the man in the street) to understand the cause and effect not only in foreign but domestic affairs, as well as his lack of interest in such matters. Added to these elements is the manner in which our representative (republican) form of government has developed as to put a premium on mediocrity and to emphasise the defects of the electorate already mentioned."

And fatality percentage rates are ALWAYS gonna stay down in the single digit range. And that's plenty low enough for the hang gliding establishment to be able to downplay and cover up and distort the information on why the crashes happened.

The power that Jack and Davis hold over the community may be insurmountable.

Thus the power that Jack, Davis, Rooney, Matt, Steve Wendt, Adam Elchin, the rest of these assholes hold over the community IS insurmountable. And the best we can hope to do is:

a) recognize that we ARE at war and people ARE getting killed;

b) recognize that, although Mother Nature is always gonna control the field and set some harsh - but fair - base rules, men/pilots are the REAL enemy and the ones doing virtually all the killing;

c) set a model of rule of law (Newton's) to which we ourselves remain subordinate to best protect ourselves from ourselves, other pilots, and Mother Nature;

d) maintain a tiny guerrilla/insurgent force to do as much damage to aforementioned assholes as possible at EVERY opportunity - and expect that that's not gonna make us real popular in the hang gliding community at large; and

e) pull in whatever recruits we can - and learn to be ecstatic getting one or two.
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:27 am

Hi Tad,

You make a lot of good points. But it's important to remember:

    A. People are not all the same as each other.
    B. People are not even the same as themselves.

Point A is illustrated by yourself and Zack. I'm sure you can't be the only two people in hang gliding with some brains. Am I right or not?

Point B is also illustrated by yourself and Zack. You yourself told me about moments when "the light went on" and you had an insight about towing that you didn't understand before. Am I right or not?

So we're all changing and learning. We also have our teachable moments as well as our "thick as a brick" moments.

The reason that less people are launching from rooftops with feathers glued to their sleeves is that more people have seen the consequences of that action. Our collective knowledge is growing, and our ability to disseminate information is growing as well.

The HGAA was an experiment. It was a failed experiment exactly because a small group (who felt THEY knew better) seized power. It wasn't because democracy failed. It was because we failed to have a democracy. Maybe you didn't follow it closely, but Jack shut down the entire site. He killed the communication channels that would have allowed a better outcome.

So the problem wasn't free speech or democracy. The problem was a lack of free speech and only one person (Jack) in power.

But here's the hope. People are different from each other (we've already got some good people on this forum), and people are sometimes even different from themselves (they do have teachable moments). So when we have proof of a result (like the failure of the SGAA), then we can use that proof with teachable people and even with non-teachable people in their teachable moments.

The HGAA was a good idea, and it had a huge following in its early stages. It continued to grow under Scott's leadership as an open and highly democratic organization. But it disintegrated almost immediately when John Borton (assisted by Jack Axaopoulos) began controlling our ability to communicate (limiting posts, moving posts, banning people, etc).

But here's the bottom line. The Jack crowd claimed they were cracking down on free speech for the good of the HGAA. If the HGAA had succeeded from their efforts, then they could have been considered right. But since the HGAA failed almost immediately after their "coup", then it's clear that they were wrong. Now if we can learn from that lesson, then we can build a better organization on the next round (hopefully, that will be the US Hawks). But if we can't learn from that lesson, then we're doomed to repeat it. It's as simple as that.
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:16 pm

Ooops ... one more comment.

My training is in engineering, and engineering is built on the strong foundation of science. But science itself is built on the strong foundation of the scientific method.

Wikipedia on Scientific Method wrote:Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. The Oxford English Dictionary says that scientific method is: "a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses."

The hypothesis of those who took over the HGAA was that they needed to control the forum (limit posts and ban people) to build the organization.

The empirical evidence is that the HGAA grew rapidly during a period of open communication (Scott's approach) and died rapidly after the crackdown on free speech (Jack's approach).

While there may have been other factors at work, I think it's clear that Scott's approach was working (rapid growth of the HGAA) and Jack's approach has failed (no significant activity within the HGAA since Jack took over). Objective people will recognize this (now that the facts are on the table) regardless of which position they took at the time. But they have to see those facts - and that's still the big problem. Since Jack controls most of what people can read about hang gliding, he controls what facts they can know. The scientific method can't function in an environment where some facts are allowed and others are prohibited. Yet that's exactly what Jack has done by banning people and controlling what the remaining people are allowed to say.
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby TadEareckson » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:09 am

A. People are not all the same as each other.
B. People are not even the same as themselves.

When the wing is stalled we all start accelerating down at 32 feet per second squared. And until the wing starts flying again all men are created - and uncreated - equal.

I'm sure you can't be the only two people in hang gliding with some brains. Am I right or not?

Lauren Tjaden - 2006/02/21

I thought I should post this since the phone keeps ringing with friends worried about Jim and wanting information. Here is what I know. Yes, the Jim in the article is OUR Jim, Jim Rooney. It was a tandem hang gliding accident, and it involved a power line. I have no more information about the accident itself. The passenger apparently was burned and is hospitalized, but is not seriously injured. Jim sustained a brain injury. He was and is heavily sedated, which means the doctors don't know and can't test for how serious the brain injury is. He is in critical but stable condition.

There are AT LEAST three of us. These guys are doctors so who's to argue?

You yourself told me about moments when "the light went on" and you had an insight about towing that you didn't understand before.

Yeah, I've had zillions of lightbulb moments in hang gliding. But if I had gone with sailplaning I imagine that I wouldn't have had any. The information would've all been in all the books that everyone had been using for the previous fifty years and I wouldn't have had to unlearn all the crap with which I'd been programmed by all the whack jobs who felt that they needed to reinvent aviation from scratch for hang gliding 'cause we use somewhat different control system.

So we're all changing and learning.

Yeah?

Learning is measured by changes in behavior.

If you went to platform or aero tow operation twenty years ago what would you see different from today?

I'm thinking gliders, harnesses, and instruments and other electronics.

Winches, tugs, three-string, Wallaby, Bailey releases, flimsy weak links, cheap, dangerous bridles, people scared of taking their hands off the basetube to go for the actuator, people trying to get the flare timing just right and breaking downtubes and arms when they don't... all the same. The stuff that the tow operators, tug drivers, and instructors control NEVER gets any better 'cause their "thick as a brick" "moments" are measured in geological divisions of time.

The reason that less people are launching from rooftops with feathers glued to their sleeves is that more people have seen the consequences of that action.

Not the greatest example to use in a discussion concerning hang gliding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mX2HNwVr9g

At least the people test flying the feathers always had the feathers when they gave it a shot.

Our collective knowledge is growing...

In this area always about how to be better disciplined about the procedures you use so that you can assume you're hooked in when you're on the ramp.

...and our ability to disseminate information is growing as well.

Measure the curve on a pin from a twenty year old Bailey release, compare it to the curve on the one you buy from Wallaby this weekend, and tell me how it matters.

It was a failed experiment exactly because a small group (who felt THEY knew better) seized power.

"THEY" *DID" know better. They seized power. Just like Admiral King said they would.

It was because we failed to have a democracy.

And you failed to have a democracy because you failed to have checks and balances. So you got yet another iteration of Uncle Joe.

Maybe you didn't follow it closely...

I didn't follow it at all - Jack was involved. Oklahoma, trailer park... big surprise.

He killed the communication channels that would've allowed a better outcome.

For whom?

But here's the hope.

You're doing a lot better job maintaining it than I am.

So when we have proof of a result (like the failure of the SGAA), then we can use that proof with teachable people and with non-teachable people in their teachable moments.

Within about a half an hour of Donnell Hewett coming up with his absolutely lunatic strategy to use a light weak link to:

infallibly and automatically release the glider from tow whenever the tow line tension exceeds the limit for safe operation

there were scrap bins, emergency rooms, and cemeteries overflowing with indisputable proof that the idea was pure unadulterated crap.

Keith P. Skiles - 2011/06/03

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground. Since then, Lookout went through the trouble of "sizing" their carts to help avoid that. They even made a handy plywood gauge you could hold up to your keel and verify the AOA was good.

I witnessed the one at Dare County Regional. It was pretty ugly. Taking off in her Cessna 152, low angle of attack, too much speed. A Tundra Swan flew in front of her. She pulled up like a rocket until the propeller disintegrated. Then she stalled and it turned back towards the ground. Since then, Dare County went through the trouble of thinning out the swan population to help avoid that. They even hired a couple of local hunters to patrol the runway ends during the heaviest operating hours.

You don't let Donnell, Malcolm, Matt, Steve, Davis, or Rooney define a propeller, its function, or its specs and you don't let the goddam pilot decide what is and isn't acceptable for his plane. You tell the sonuvabitch that it's gonna meet these standards or he's not gonna fly - whether he's teachable or not. And that's been working just fine for general aviation - and the 0.0001 percent of pilots who have the desire, capability, and resources to roll their own.

The scientific method can't function in an environment where some facts are allowed and others are prohibited.

Doug Hildreth - 1982/03

1981/04/12
Joel Lewis
31
Advanced
Columbia, South Carolina
Seagull 10 Meter
Atlantic Ultralight Mini-Hill winch
head

Low-level lockout. Hands on downtubes, actuator on basetube, missed on first attempt. Hit head first.

(Five months earlier Joel had been my roommate when we were both working as instructors at Kitty Hawk Kites.)

Gregg McNamee - 1996/12

Common sense tells us that the last thing we want to do in an emergency situation is give up control of the glider in order to terminate the tow.

If your system requires you to take your hand off the control bar to actuate the release it is not suitable.

With as many facts as anybody wanted to put out there (both of those clips are from the magazine) screaming in people's faces for over thirty years how much difference has common sense made? But diver drivers are suddenly gonna start embracing the scientific method to lay the foundations of a new organization based upon reason and fairness that'll move things in a positive direction?

I repeat...

Humans are stupid herd animals that are perfectly OK with stampeding over the cliff to the south in response to the sound of a falling tree to the north just as long as everybody else is stampeding in the same direction.

And you know what's gonna happen to an individual who understands what's going on and tries to stand between the herd and the cliff?

Herd animals value two things when they select their leaders - skull thickness and testicles size. Davis, Jack, Rooney, Tracy... Starting to make sense now?

And ya know the ONLY significant aspect of hang gliding that doesn't totally suck?

My training is in engineering, and engineering is built on the strong foundation of science. But science itself is built on the strong foundation of the scientific method.

The gliders themselves I trust. And that's 'cause individuals in the engineering layer of the gene pool use their heads for thinking - rather rather than bashing through people trying to turn the herd to a less deleterious direction - and have more energy to do it 'cause they don't get exhausted from having to haul their testicles around in wheelbarrows all day long.

Backup suspension DOES NOT make gliders safer - it makes them A LOT more dangerous.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17990

See Steve Rathbun's pictures on Page 3.

Ya know why we have backup suspensions on gliders?

Mike Meier - 2005/08/~18

It shouldn't matter whether the backup is in front or behind, because it should be longer than the main such that it is always slack in flight. An argument could be made that IF the main hang loop broke, you'd rather have the backup in front because the most likely scenario in which you'd break the main would be pulling high positive G's, and in that case you'd rather have the pitch trim become more nose down than become more nose up, but on a Falcon 2 that's not really a consideration. As far as where the backup "usually" goes, we usually put it behind the main because that's usually where there's room for it. If the main is properly maintained, and periodically replaced, it is never going to fail anyway, so the backup is sort of pointless. Years ago we didn't even put backup hang loops on our gliders (there's no other component on your glider that is backed up, and there are plenty of other components that are more likely to fail, and where the failure would be just as serious), but for some reason the whole backup hang loop thing is a big psychological need for most pilots.

We need to keep the goddam stupid pilots as far away from design and policy issues as we possibly can, get a scientific method based rule of law in place, and cut hands and balls off of the divers who think that their votes and opinions should influence the conduct of aviation. The air is no place for democracy or freedom of speech 'cause Mother Nature doesn't give a rat's ass about either.
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby TadEareckson » Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:56 am

remmoore - 2011/06/01
This Month's USHPA Mag & A Personal Record

Our strength is in the electronic media. BB's such as this, combined with YouTube and Vimeo are out there for public consumption, and I'm sure we get more notice electronically than the mag ever did. HERE is where we keep ourselves updated, educated, and entertained. HERE is where no editor can wave us away.

Thanks SG, Davis, and all the other self-publishers who support HG in the electronic media!

RM

sg - 2011/06/03
This Month's USHPA Mag & A Personal Record

THREAD LOCKED.
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby TadEareckson » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:22 am

HangGliding.Org's Mission Statement

* To provide a friendly and positive, approachable community for people interested in the sport of HG
* To provide a friendly community for Hang Glider pilots to hang out and discuss hang gliding

HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

* Please treat the admin as a regular user. As long as you follow the rules, there is NO CHANCE you will banned because you disagree with the admin. The admin would like to be part of this community too without having to walk on egg shells because people think his word holds more weight for whatever reason. It does not. But the admin will do his job as moderator when he has to. But please follow the rules and don't make him do it, he doesn't enjoy that part. :)
* No posts or links about Bob K or Scott C Wise. Those two are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby TadEareckson » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:31 am

Hang Gliding Org Forum Index
-Hang gliding general
--New Bob Kuczewski, Scott C. Wise rule

sg - 2010/09/27 19:49

After months of being smeared and attacked by these two guys, after everyone else else let it go, they are still at it on the torrey hawks forum. Even the new hawks forum is a cesspool for revisionist character assassinations against some of the best volunteers in the hang gliding community.

Well ive had it. Ive been pushed too far and am now defending myself and fighting back. They expect me to take punch after punch without countering. No more. Enough is enough.

TO PREVENT this ugly nonsense from ruining the new peace and tranquility that has occurred on the org since then, no BobK/Scott drama will be allowed to spill over onto this forum. All such threads will simply be DELETED.

This site is off limits to their vile from now on. I will not allow their destructive vitriol to take down this forum as it has the new hawks forum. Their new forum is just a pile of disgusting lies and smears. They no longer need the old torrey forum so I have shut it down and posted a counter message in self defense. They will play the victim now and email everyone in the world. Cry me a river. When you keep punching someone in the face for months, dont cry when they finally hit you back.

I know for a fact Bob and Scott will NEVER let it go and will continue to attack me, John Wright, John Borton, and other HGAA members that voted them out. But I will not allow that to ruin this site as well.

If anyone has an issue with this, just walk out the door. Dont threaten it, dont announce it, just walk out. Any such political nonsense will be deleted. Just leave instead. The Bob/Scott drama stops at the door. They will not be invited back and are not authorized to access this server in any way.

Ive really enjoyed the new peace at the org. Its been a lot quieter and more fun here. Lets keep it that way.

PM me if you really want to make a statement.

(EDIT: all the PM's so far have been very supportive and positive, thanks guys! )

THE END

sg - 2010/09/27 23:39

I worry every time I see my PM notification, and then after I read it, just more and MORE support from everyone thanking me for getting rid of these people.

This community rules and is 100X better without them. THANK YOU ALL for your support. I really appreciate the flood of positive PM's. I expected only the people with an issue to PM and flame me. What a surprise when 100% of the PM's were positive instead

:thumbup:

sg - 2010/09/28 05:04

Another morning... another basket of support PM's
Thank you, thank you thank all!

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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed May 29, 2019 7:17 am

On May 29th, 2019, Jack Axaopoulos wrote:

Jack Axaopoulos wrote:The sport is committing a slow suicide.

Murder would be a better word Jack, and you're still holding the smoking gun.

In June of 2011 Bob Kuczewski wrote:It's clear that if we want to protect hang gliding in the future, we're going to need an organization that's dedicated to hang gliding.
  :
the problem wasn't free speech or democracy. The problem was a lack of free speech and only one person (Jack) in power.
  :
The HGAA was a good idea, and it had a huge following in its early stages. It continued to grow under Scott's leadership as an open and highly democratic organization. But it disintegrated almost immediately when John Borton (assisted by Jack Axaopoulos) began controlling our ability to communicate (limiting posts, moving posts, banning people, etc).

That was 8 years ago next week.
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby wingspan33 » Wed May 29, 2019 9:41 am

I just had a look at the link to the SG.org thread referred to above.

I'll also quote SG -

"The sport needs entirely new leadership for any chance of a turn around. Ushpa's track record
is good evidence they are not the solution, and no one else seem's to be stepping up. I think
most pilots [would] rather just go fly.
"

This was posted today 5/29/2019 !

Jack is blind (probably willfully) because the sport of hang gliding does have "new leadership". If, as an active member of the US Hawks you're reading this, then you are among and part of that new leadership!

I then would agree with SG that the U$hPa is not the solution to reverse the decline of hang gliding.

But SG's comment that "no one else seems to be stepping up" ? Well, SG sure isn't stepping up, that's for sure. If fact, he's done considerable damage to the creation and development of a new hang gliding only National association.

Bob Kuczewski stepped up a year or so before 2010 and began to spearhead the creation of a hang gliding only association right there on sg.org.

As for myself, some of my earliest posts on the OZ Report (back in 2006 or 2007) involved the promotion of starting a new hang gliding only National association. And when the HGAA was imagined (again on sg.org) I was chosen as its Interim Chairman.

So, the new leadership is right here at the US Hawks. We also have some of the old, original USHGA leadership right here as well! :thumbup:

And with the way the US Hawks works, EVERY member has a direct say in our path forward. So individual members can also lead!

I think that most pilots just wanting to go fly is probably correct. So I'd once again have to agree with SG on that point. That's why encouraging pilots who both understand that some leadership is important, and also want to be part of that leadership, is something that needs to be done - and welcomed! That's what the US Hawks is about.

That's what the HGAA was supposed to be about as well until SG intentionally acted to KILL it. So SG comes off as very much two faced.

Finally -
I'd also like to include the U$hPa's financial audit that Mavi Gogun found and put up over on sg.org. I'm bad at financial stuff, but someone here may be able to make more sense of it than I can.

USHPA audit 2017 .pdf
Any hang gliding accountants out there?
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Last edited by wingspan33 on Wed May 29, 2019 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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