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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby Bill Cummings » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:40 am

That sounds like moderation with fairness in mind Joe.
Jack (sg) and Davis each have years of constantly demonstrating
that fairness will not be allowed to interfere with their point
of view.
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:13 am

Bill Cummings wrote:Jack (sg) and Davis each have years of constantly demonstrating
that fairness will not be allowed to interfere with their point
of view.

Davis just confirmed that you are right Bill:

Davis wrote:The answer is no and will continue to be no. You have your own forums and you are invited to stay there. My purpose in the Oz Report forum is a place to discuss Oz report articles.


That's pretty clear. The purpose of the Oz Forum is to talk about Oz articles. And who writes Oz articles? Only Davis. So the Oz Forum is admittedly only about what Davis wants to talk about. Davis, Davis, Davis. If Davis doesn't want to talk about any topic, then it can't be discussed. Period.

Unfortunately, the same is true of hanggliding.org (and even worse).

This is one of the biggest things that has been killing the sport of hang gliding. There is no place where everyone can work together to address the problems that we face - other than the U.S. Hawks. Jack and Davis and USHPA all know this, and that's why they are so desperate (and I mean really desperate) to shut us down.

Davis, by the way, has betrayed himself in his reply to Joe. Davis wrote "You have your own forums and you are invited to stay there". If that were really what Davis wanted then he would not object to Joe posting:

"Anyone who wants to discuss what we can't discuss here is invited to join us at ushawks.org."

In fact, Davis should post that himself - in prominent view. But he doesn't because it's not what he really wants. Davis wants his captive audience to talk only about the topics that Davis decides.
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby JoeF » Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:11 pm

FinalRequest.JPG
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:02 am

I think Joe has checkmated Davis on the "Why? Why? Why?" topic.

Both Davis and Jack like to pretend that they ban people, lock topics, delete and/or modify posts for the good of their forums. They both also complain that such moderation is a terrible burden on them (boo hoo).

They have both also suggested that people take unwanted discussions to some other forum. But if they were being truthful about really wanting people to have those discussions on some other forum, wouldn't they actually suggest such a forum - with a link - to make it easy for people to actually go there?

Checkmate.

Joe suggested that any locked topics might simply contain a link to the U.S. Hawks for continued discussion of the unwanted topic. Then pilots could go there to discuss the things that Davis and Jack don't want on their own forums. Problem solved, and everyone is happy ... right?

No, not right. Neither Davis nor Jack will do that because while they might say "take it to some other forum", they really don't want that. They really want to kill off the discussion of the topic itself and maintain control of what pilots can know and think.

Actions speak louder than words. Checkmate.

Nicely done Joe!!!

:clap:   :clap:   :clap:   :clap:   :clap:  
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For the record

Postby Free » Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:11 pm

Michael Grisham, writes the following on a heavily censored commercial web forum:

Re: Why? Why? Why? Tue, Aug 6 2019, 9:16:02 pm
Why? Because Davis is the owner of the Oz Report.

Why? Because Davis is the publisher of the Oz Report.

Why? Because Davis is the editor of the Oz Report.

Why? Because Davis is legally responsible for the content on the Oz Report.

Why? Because Davis pays for the bandwidth for the Oz Report.

Why? Because Davis decides what the Oz Report is and isn’t.

That is the right of the freedom of the press since the First Amendment was adopted by the United States of America on December 15, 1791 as part of the Bill of Rights. That is the way it is in this country period.

Joe Faust exercises those same rights on his websites and forums:

JoeF wrote:
I move for the Board of Advisors to have (name withheld)'s post space be only in the non-RHG section of the forum.

JoeF wrote:
Freedom has responsibilities. There is an off-topic freedom of speech section. Be well. Be right to all. Lift, Joe.

JoeF wrote:
To clarify, the tiny corner of the USA called ******* forum has very many sections in it as a gift of a limited-funded recreational hang glider pilot. Most of the sections of the forum are for a focus on recreational hang gliding. The billions of issues in the world do not form the focus of a constrained place to deal with recreational hang gliding.
. . . . .
Losing focus and having no moderation constraints for a fine-tuned-focused recreational forum allows destroyers to fill up the limited-time-space that focused visitors have. RHG (recreational hang gliding) visitors time-and-attention budget is limited;

The Rainbow Bridge

Joe Faust are you going to allow on your website and forums open discussion on a person’s right to fly paragliders?

Joe Faust are you going to allow on your website and forums open discussion on the Recreational Hang Gliding LGBTQ community?

Joe Faust are you going to allow on your website and forums open discussion on a Woman Hang Glider Pilot’s Pro-Choice view of abortion because she does not choose to fly in the prone position while pregnant?

Joe Faust has already given us the answer. Joe Faust bans and restricts speech on his websites and forums on issues he does not support, which is his right as publisher and editor, the same as Davis.

Davis chooses to focus on competition and world record hang gliding/paragliding along with subjects affecting those venues, which is his right.

Honor his right.
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby Free » Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:21 pm

Ok, so I've been away for awhile. Sorry that I have missed so much including some personal emails.
With great disappointment I read Mike Grishams post above. Can he push his nose up Davis' rear end any further?
I don't think so but I never thought a lot of things would happen, that did. So disappointed in how low so many hg pilots have become.
Maybe I was naive to begin with, in ever thinking hg pilots were a cut above the average dolt.

What about that lawsuit you were working on, Michael? Fill us in with your fake Constitutional theory.
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:10 am

Michael Grisham has unfortunately painted himself into a corner on this issue. All of Michael's arguments are about what is legal for Jack and Davis to do. Michael can't seem to understand that the law only sets the lowest bar on human behavior. The law sets the threshold at which our otherwise free society will actually step in and take your money, your freedom, and possibly your life.

Michael doesn't understand that there are behaviors (such as recent actions by Jack and Davis) that are not illegal, but deserving of rebuke by the community. Racism is a perfect example. People are perfectly free to harbor racist attitudes and even make racist decisions in their private affairs. The law does not forbid that. But anyone supporting such attitudes and actions (explicitly or implicitly) should expect criticism from their peers.

Michael's post drones on and on about the legal rights that Davis has. No one is arguing that Davis doesn't have those legal rights. What people are arguing is whether the community should silently support the actions by Davis (and Jack) without protest. I believe Michael is capable of understanding this on an intellectual level, but he can't or won't admit it because it places a burden of responsibility on him that he does not want to accept.
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:59 am

One more thought ...

All social animals operate by systems of implicit laws. These unwritten laws apply to the full spectrum of behavior from minor infractions to the most heinous acts possible. Those unwritten laws are enforced naturally and organically by the entire social structure of those animals.

Humans have gone a step further and codified portions of these natural laws into written law. We started with simple systems of written law such as the "Ten Commandments" and have continually piled more and more "undesired behavior" into written law. This is the trend that Michael's arguments support. Michael is arguing that the only valid form of social pressure must come from written law. The ultimate result would be a system of written laws that very very tightly defines every aspect of our lives. That's the road we're on, and it is the opposite of the freedom that Michael claims to want.

As with Michael's beloved Part 103, the only valid alternative to increasingly burdensome written law is meaningful self regulation. In the world of hang gliding forums, this means that the community must push back on practices that the community deems to be unacceptable. That "push back" includes speaking out in protest or voting with your feet. Michael has refused to do either in the bannings of Joe and now Swift.
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