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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed May 29, 2019 11:20 am

wingspan33 wrote:I just had a look at the link to the SG.org thread referred to above.
     :
So SG comes off as very much two faced.


Two-faced Jack Axaopoulos ("sg"):

Jack Axaopoulos loves USHPA:
Back before the HGAA, Jack tried to sell USHPA on his "Lead Gen" program.

Jack Axaopoulos hates USHPA:
USHPA was wise enough to avoid entering into any dealings with Jack. So Jack went on "the warpath" against USHPA.

Jack Axaopoulos loves the HGAA:
When I first posted to start a new organization (the HGAA) in spring of 2010, Jack jumped on board to poke a finger in USHPA's eye. As Scott said, Scott was unanimously nominated to lead the effort without one voice of protest. It was all started on hanggliding.org.

Jack Axaopoulos hates the HGAA:
But Jack envied the HGAA, and when he realized that he wouldn't have control, he used his power over the forum to kick out anyone opposing him and to eventually kill it. It was dead by the end of 2010.

Jack Axaopoulos loves the Torrey Hawks:
Along the way, Jack joined the Torrey Hawks. I had wisely registered the domain name torreyhawks.org, but Jack offered to set up a forum for the club at his own "torreyhawksforum.org" domain. I unwisely accepted.

Jack Axaopoulos hates the Torrey Hawks:
After Jack took over the HGAA, he also took control of torreyhawksforum.org and banned everyone by locking the entire forum down. Even club officers couldn't post. Jack eventually deleted everyone's posts and used the domain to smear anyone he didn't like. Now you can't even post a link to the original torreyhawks.org anywhere on hanggliding.org. Try it and see what happens.

Jack Axaopoulos loves USHPA (again):
During USHPA's "insurance crisis" Jack put up a big banner pushing for donations to USHPA's RRRG. It was never disclosed what USHPA might have paid or done for that advertisement.

Jack Axaopoulos hates USHPA (again):
Now (May 29, 2019 8:47 am) we have Jack posting:
Nothing has changed for decades. Ushpa has never been a hang gliding org, and never will be, so we can just expect more of the same. The membership apathy is also clear and apparent. Lot's of blame to go around. I sent an email to 5000 people about the issue.... LAST DAY TO VOTE message... only 5% of email receivers even bothered to click on the link, well below the rate of other email sends on different subjects. Either few care, or everyone has simply checked out when it comes to USHPA stuff... or other?

The sport needs entirely new leadership for any chance of a turn around. Ushpa's track record is good evidence they are not the solution, and no one else seem's to be stepping up. I think most pilots rather just go fly. Not a good state of affairs. The sport is committing a slow suicide.


Moral of the story:
Jack Axaopoulos only loves himself.
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:54 pm

I'm just posting to draw attention to Scott's previous message. My own previous message focussed on Scott's comment about Jack being "two faced", but that didn't do justice to the full intent of Scott's message:

wingspan33 wrote:I just had a look at the link to the SG.org thread referred to above.

I'll also quote SG -

"The sport needs entirely new leadership for any chance of a turn around. Ushpa's track record
is good evidence they are not the solution, and no one else seem's to be stepping up. I think
most pilots [would] rather just go fly.
"

This was posted today 5/29/2019 !

Jack is blind (probably willfully) because the sport of hang gliding does have "new leadership". If, as an active member of the US Hawks you're reading this, then you are among and part of that new leadership!

I then would agree with SG that the U$hPa is not the solution to reverse the decline of hang gliding.

But SG's comment that "no one else seems to be stepping up" ? Well, SG sure isn't stepping up, that's for sure. If fact, he's done considerable damage to the creation and development of a new hang gliding only National association.

Bob Kuczewski stepped up a year or so before 2010 and began to spearhead the creation of a hang gliding only association right there on sg.org.

As for myself, some of my earliest posts on the OZ Report (back in 2006 or 2007) involved the promotion of starting a new hang gliding only National association. And when the HGAA was imagined (again on sg.org) I was chosen as its Interim Chairman.

So, the new leadership is right here at the US Hawks. We also have some of the old, original USHGA leadership right here as well! :thumbup:

And with the way the US Hawks works, EVERY member has a direct say in our path forward. So individual members can also lead!

I think that most pilots just wanting to go fly is probably correct. So I'd once again have to agree with SG on that point. That's why encouraging pilots who both understand that some leadership is important, and also want to be part of that leadership, is something that needs to be done - and welcomed! That's what the US Hawks is about.

That's what the HGAA was supposed to be about as well until SG intentionally acted to KILL it. So SG comes off as very much two faced.

Finally -
I'd also like to include the U$hPa's financial audit that Mavi Gogun found and put up over on sg.org. I'm bad at financial stuff, but someone here may be able to make more sense of it than I can.


The full intent of Scott's message is that the members of the U.S. Hawks have been - and still are - the best foundation for a new hang gliding association. That explains why the entrenched controllers of the sport (Jack, Davis, and USHPA) fear the U.S. Hawks so much that they have each done their best to discredit and destroy us. Here's how it's currently structured:

  • Jack fears any national association with a forum because it would kill hanggliding.org.
  • Davis also fears any national association with a forum because it would kill ozreport.com.
  • USHPA doesn't want a forum because it would make them accountable to their members who could speak out on the issues.
So they each have an interest in maintaining the status quo. They also each have a strong incentive to keep the U.S. Hawks from growing because we could put them each out of business.

Scott's message reminds everyone that the U.S. Hawks has been the only national association "walking the walk" for fairness in hang gliding for nearly 10 years. Scott's message also reminds everyone that the U.S. Hawks leaders have a long track record of standing up for hang gliding and hang glider pilots. This quote from Scott says it best:

wingspan33 wrote:... the sport of hang gliding does have "new leadership". If, as an active member of the US Hawks you're reading this, then you are among and part of that new leadership!


Thanks Scott!!    :salute:
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:27 am

The splitting of the hang gliding community and the strangling of hang gliding communications continues on the Oz Forum today. Swift had started a very important topic titled "Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding". Swift opened the topic with this great post:

Swift wrote:Let's start a conversation. I have an idea that can positively result in the growth of new pilots.
People can start lining up with their own arguments and I'll hold mine off for a while.
Do you see hang gliding dying a slow death, or not?
Steve Pierson's recent concerns as the premier hg manufacturer in the US tells me the premise is true.
What can we do about it?

After 10 pages of discussions (and many diversions by naysayers), Swift pointed out the flaw in Jim Gaar's objections to free speech:

Swift wrote:You used coarse language to say Bob K. wouldn't censor someone for saying bad things about you. I think that is a good thing. He doesn't censor your ability to counter that kind of information does he? What stops you from doing that?

Swift was right on target (as usual). Jim knows very well that he's welcome to counter any complaints against him here on the U.S. Hawks. We have a very fair and objective Board of Directors that are willing to help resolve problems in the hang gliding community. So far, Jim has been unwilling to participate in that process.

Davis used the disagreements to first put the topic into the "Off Topic" section, and to eventually lock it altogether. Here's the final post by Davis:

Davis Straub wrote:Enough with the personal attacks. The thread is closed.

Moral of this story: If you've got a "Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding" and Davis doesn't like where it leads, he will lock your topic and put it in the basement. The same is true of Jack. Eventually they may even ban you. That's why this topic was started way back ... in 2011. :shock:
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby wingspan33 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:08 pm

Hey Bob, I just had a look at the beginning of this thread. I clicked on the link to http://www.hangglidingassociationofamerica.org/forum and got a "secret" page on SG.org. You have to have a password to see what's there. Obviously, the HGAA is dead and buried - probably for quite some time now.

BTW - The new destination of the above link is https://www.hanggliding.org/bobkuczewski/ I think lots of people should click on the first link and go see Bob K on SG.org. Maybe Jack the Axe is secretly acting to promote Bob K (and the US Hawks) ! :clap: :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup: :clap:

That would fit with two faced Jack now wouldn't it? :srofl:
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby JoeF » Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:50 pm

This was posted on topic at Oz Report and deleted by Davis soon after:
Aug1of2019ToOZReport.JPG
Aug1of2019ToOZReport.JPG (78.9 KiB) Viewed 350 times


His public note to me: nothing.
His personal note to me: nothing.
The link was to the topic in USHawks:
==============================================
Davis has been killing his own forum by such pointed censorship.
His flow cannot be trusted. Who knows what posts by pilots he simply erases.
================================================

The link of HERE in the screen print was to http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3511

:arrow: We are seeing huge evidence that recreational hang gliding should not support the Davis forum.
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby JoeF » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:07 pm

Quote of the Times

Davis wrote:I didn't ban him. I just deleted him. ...


... regarding Swift at OzR :?:

-------------------------------------------
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:44 am

JoeF wrote:Quote of the Times

Davis wrote:I didn't ban him. I just deleted him. ...


... regarding Swift at OzR :?:


:srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl:

That's right up there with Bill Clinton's claims that he didn't have sex with his intern based on what the meaning of "is" is.
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby dhmartens » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:01 pm

Does nobody defend Jack A on this forum?
Speed gliding, Discovery channel, Red Bull? It seems he split the community back then too.

He changes his mind like the wind. This sport is about wind where you live longer when you change your mind like the wind.

Where are any videos today of speed gliding? Are they all taken down?
at 1:49 of this video I put on youtube you can see discovery channel speed gliding banned footage
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:24 pm

The insanity continues ...

As best I can tell, Ben Reese posted the following to the Oz Forum and it was deleted.

Ben Reese wrote:Re: Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding 3.0
Mon, Aug  5 2019,  5:03:28 am

I am in a real difficult position here.

Searching on the web for an appropriate pic of what Hang Gliding outreach would look like? 
Something to show what I have done many years ago found me looking at this.

In fact Brian Porter and myself did this kind of outreach for schools and EAA chapter
monthly presentations on the History of HG..

Not a better pic exists that I could find on youth outreach.

Crestview.png
Crestview.png (294.17 KiB) Viewed 239 times

And I am unsure whether I can post it?

Not using any names or links to other sites forbidden, no personal attacks and no personal references.

Just a pic of HG outreach at its best example..

B R

I had read it before it was deleted, and I thought that was a very nice way for Ben to share the picture without offending Davis (or anyone else). Yet now the entire post is gone.

The forum name of "Oz" is starting to make a lot more sense ...

I AM OZ.... the Great and Powerful!

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!

The Great Oz has spoken!


In all seriousness, we have several thousands of hang gliding pilots in the United States. That's it. And those several thousand are declining pretty fast. There are a number of us who would like to get serious about taking action to reverse that trend. We all need to work together.

And yet Jack and Davis are acting like a couple of junior high girls trying to establish social dominance over their classmates. They've each set themselves up as supreme masters over their cult of followers and enforce their control with fear of being cut from the herd.

Now if this were the sport of paragliding, I might not be too surprised. In my experience (mostly at Torrey), the PG pilots have always been very "cliquish" and very willing to compromise their character for a seat with the "in crowd". But I'd always thought hang glider pilots were a cut above such nonsense. I always thought of hang glider pilots as self sufficient icons of individualism. And yet here they are cowering in fear of being banned by the "tea party queens" (Jack and Davis).

The sport of hang gliding is shrinking for a number of external reasons. But those external reasons don't hold a candle to the cowardice of those who would watch others be bullied and remain silent. A sport of cowards will not survive. It's time for everyone on Oz to speak up for Swift. Start a topic demanding a reversal. Let Davis pick you off if he wants. The great purge of 2019 will be his legacy. Make him earn it.
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Re: Jack and Davis Splitting the HG Community

Postby JoeF » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:43 am

Posted also at OR:

Joe Faust wrote:Why? Why? Why?

Some pilots participating in HG forums have been conditioned over many years about moderator actions. When the moderator says "no" some participants may freeze up and participate in a constrained fashion, even beyond what might be required. It is noticed that some of our friends are no longer seen in the forums or as much seen; maybe spirits have been stifled or snuffed.

How much should we question matters that bring a reduction of participation? One may not want to be the next target of banning or deletion; and such might lead to quashing some ideas that may be important to put up on the discussion board.

How much loss should the group tolerate silently? Some may silently question: Shall I say something in defense of another pilot? Does one hold back expression in fear of being the next discard?

Silencing pilots doesn't solve problems, so here are my questions:

1. Why have the people who've been banned (or deleted) been banned (or deleted)?

2. Why are we not allowed to mention the people who've been banned (or deleted)?

3. Why are we not allowed to mention certain organizations?

There are valid reasons to mention banned persons and banned organizations. One might learn good things to replicate or bad things to avoid. Furthermore, those people and organizations don't cease to impact hang gliding in potentially positive and negative ways just because we don't talk about them. They don't disappear just because we're not allowed to speak their names.

So why are they forbidden to be mentioned?

Of course the rule might be simply that the owner of the forum likes this or that; and those likes and dislikes could rule for any given forum. But if a forum wants to serve well the large picture of hang gliding community, then maybe the owner-controller could set aside his or her personal likes and dislikes and be governed by larger-than-self principles of communication.

Will Oz Report open its aims to something bigger than the limits set by its owner's set of likes and dislikes? Oz Report in its international interests and competition interests and commercial interests has exhibited some flows that are at odds with what could be needed by a US-RHG focus for forum flow. [RHG :: recreational hang gliding]

Will Jack's forum with its ad focus and international flow fit US-RHG focus? Probably not; and that forum is narrowing to the owner's likes and dislikes instead of what will be needed for US-RHG focus.

However Davis and Jack could let all sectors of the hang gliding community flow well beyond the owners' likes and dislikes.
Last edited by JoeF on Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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