[DarthVader]

> > >>PackSaddle Report
> > >>Good report B Asher reports

> > >>the 1st part of your flight was that it was bit to early
> > >>still changing, so outlasting the sinkcycle, you were there to stay
> > >>till tired,good job..Btw did you Really Run your Landing out ?????
> > >>
> > >>Nate, sounds like a great flt, except for the landing,,,sorry.
> > >>at what altiude. did you comitt to Land where you did ?
> > >>at least the glider took the impact, and Not You !
> > >>
> > >>Rich D
> > >>
> > >>--- > > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Pack was about as good as it gets Saturday afternoon,
> > >>> Only Nate , Zimmerman and I showed up to fly.
> > >>> But every one logged over 2 hours each, I think Nate got 3 ..
> > >>>
> > >>> I got there about 11:oo and it was West South West and Light. " typical Pack "
> > >>>
> > >>> But : About noon it started looking good enough to drive up.
> > >>>
> > >>> Zimmerman and Nate Arrived about 1:30 , just as I was finishing setting up.
> > >
> > >>> Winds on top were SSE, 15 to 20 gusting to 25,, in other words perfect.
> > >>> except for some rather iff-ey sink cycles, where it would go to like 10, for 2
> > >>>or 3 minutes.
> > >>>
> > >>> I launched at 2:00 and landed at 4:25 , The first 15 minutes were a bit of a
> > >>>struggle
> > >>> I was below launch twice. But after that it just got better and better,, The
> > >>>typical thermal
> > >>> would take me to 600 over, & as long as you flew the line, you could just go
> > >>>straight out.
> > >>>
> > >>> I think 1100 ft over was my higest, 3# 360's would always push me behind the
> > >>>ridge.
> > >>>
> > >>> The landing was really trashy, I had to stay on the down tubes this time and
> > >>>just run it out.
> > >>>
> > >>> I would have stayed longer but My right hand just gave out on me.
> > >>> It felt like electrical shocks going through it. Maybe I was holding on to
> > >>>tight.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Nate in a T-2. and Zim. in an old Talon launched about 3:00 / 3:15 ~~ and
> > >>>were not
> > >>> bothered about flying way out and low. At about 3:45 they got high, way west
> > >>>of
> > >>> the west point and left the hill. They cranked it back to the air port,
> > >>> and I think topped out at about 5,500 ft. Then they both came back.
> > >>> Zimmerman hung out for a while, did a few wangs, and spot landed right by his
> > >>>truck.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Nate got high again, went back to the air port again, but this time did not
> > >>>make it back.
> > >>>
> > >>> He got caught in the North Pack rotor, had a safe landing off the NE corner of the hill.
> > >>> Ate a good size live oak, and took out his left leading edge. O-well, it was
> > >>>almost
<
>>>>> a perfect day. He was not injured, but fixing that Carbon Graphite peace
>>>>>may be expensive.

B Asher.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Thanks for the post.

Do you have a link to the original? If so, please post it.

Thanks.

[DarthVader]

No one likes to post these events, or talk about it for that matter, I post them up because they need to be read so that pilots don't make the same mistakes. I may not be liked for posting these events up for pilots to read and find ways to prevent these events from happening again and again... Just like the way I posted Emanuel Lopez accident on a hang glider, Emanuel was not even suppose to have a HG in his possession and John Stewards' accident, so young, and so sad for his family, that he only had an idea of how to fly a hang glider, Martins accident, to much in a rush to fly & forgot to hook in, these events were kept undercover among flying clubs... Somethings are just best kept in silent and the list goes on and on, and more to come the green reaper is just around the corner with someones name on his list, if people keep braking the rules and not doing what they are suppose to do. 1. Not hooking In H.A.W.K 2. Not having a safety check list for towing, and not having hook knifes, 3. Not knowing how to fly a hang glider and hanging on for dear life
4. Flying gliders that are way beyond your skill level & not having the right size glider 5. flying in strong wind blowing faster than you glider can fly 6. Not having the right training 7. Not doing the Pre-flights inspections 8. using the wrong gear to tow with 9. Not having a good Judgement and thinking you can get a way with it. The body count goes on and on, for some, lady luck maybe on their side for the fist time or so, for others it just not there at all. No one wants to know until it happens to you

WHAT DID I DO WRONG or WHAT THE HELL JUST HAPPEN
it is sad how may times I have heard that one before


NOT TOO MUCH WAS SAID ON THIS SUBJECT


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/13162

[Bob Kuczewski]

No one likes to post these events, or talk about it for that matter, I post them up because they need to be read so that pilots don't make the same mistakes.

There's no better reason. Thanks.

I may not be liked for posting these events up for pilots to read and find ways to prevent these events from happening again and again...

Unlike some of the other national forums, we don't ban people for not being liked. Our goal is to provide a platform where we can build a better national hang gliding association. That was the original goal of the HGAA (over a year ago) until it was undermined by people who focussed more on "being liked" than on the truth. Honesty and truthfulness are more highly valued here. There's a lot to be said for being tactful, but not at the expense of the truth.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/13162

I went to that site, but it requires a login to even see the postings. There may be a reason to keep "wraps" on the information, but I'd prefer more openness if it is possible.

[ZackC]

I went to that site, but it requires a login to even see the postings. There may be a reason to keep "wraps" on the information, but I'd prefer more openness if it is possible.

As moderator of the HHPA group, I must apologize. I wish our group was completely open, but some of our members think it's too open as it is (as it allows non-HHPA members), so it's a compromise. There are no requirements or downsides to joining the group, however.

That said, nothing more was posted about the incident anyway. I'm with you guys on this...we should learn from all mistakes, whether or not they're our own, so it's frustrating when incidents are buried. The Austin Free Flight Association requires members to report incidents on their board, but in practice this is rarely done.

Zack

[Bob Kuczewski]

Thanks for the follow-up Zack.

One of the unfortunate situations regarding hang gliding is that there is no central place for the collection of information and discussion. Here are the main players and their downsides:

• USHPA is supposed to do this, but they won't set up a forum because they don't want to have to answer to their members. For example, if they set up a members forum, then members might ask how their individual Directors are voting. The Directors don't want to go on record and that would become an instant embarrassment. There are dozens of issues (similar to open voting) where the USHPA leadership would be embarrassed by the questions their members ask. That's why they won't support an open forum.

• hanggliding.org is the largest forum we have in the sport, but it's run by Jack Axaopoulos (sg) who decides who can post and what can be posted. He's kicked off several people who've been critical of him (Tad, Scott, and myself are three examples). Because of Jack's temper (and threats) others are afraid to speak out. This is in violation of his own rules which claim that criticising the moderator won't get you banned. Ask Scott Wise (wingspan) about that one or view the topic ("A petition to reinstate the account of BobK") where many hanggliding.org members asked to have me reinstated.

• The Oz Report is similar to hanggliding.org because it's run by one person (Davis Straub) who decides who can post and what they can post. During the Region 3 Recall election, Davis manipulated the posts of myself and Bill Helliwell so that Bill's posts were on the main forum and mine were moved and eventually deleted. When I complained, he simply banned me which further helped Bill to win the election.

• Local Club Forums could also be a great source of information, but they're scattered across the country (and the world). So lessons learned by one club aren't easily visible to the rest of the pilots in the world. That's why the US Hawks was founded with integral club forums. This makes it easy to see new posts and to search across all club forums at once. This is another innovation that we've pioneered. If USHPA were really interested in furthering the sport they'd do the same, but again they don't want to answer hard questions from their members.

• The HGAA was my original attempt to create a new organization to solve these problems, but I made the mistake of allowing Jack Axaopoulos to run the organization's forum. He abused that privilege by unilaterally locking down the site (a one man mutiny) when he disagreed with Scott Wise ("Wingspan"). Scott had been the original chair as agreed by the group, but Jack abused his power over the forum to oust Scott in a rigged election. The site has been mostly dead since that time, and I suspect Jack has allowed it to die because it might eventually compete with hanggliding.org, diminish his power in the sport, and reduce the advertising money he gets from his site.

The US Hawks was designed to help solve all of those problems. We have a very strong "free speech" policy implemented through our "Free Speech" portions of the forum. So even if someone were so obnoxious that they were banned from the main forum, they would still have a platform on the site. This is in contrast to USHPA, hanggliding.org, the Oz Report, and the HGAA since none of them provide an uncensored means for members to voice their opinions.

Because the US Hawks is based on a forum model, all of our members will be able to ask direct and open questions of their Directors. The Directors may not be required to answer, but dodging reasonable questions will help the members make better decisions during the next election. Again, this is something that USHPA should do, but they're afraid to have to answer direct public questions from their members.

The US Hawks was the first national forum to provide club forums for local discussions. Davis Straub followed this lead by creating a club forum for the Sandia Soaring Association. So I asked Davis whether club officers would be in charge of who could post on their own forums, and his answer was that he (Davis) would decide who could post and who could not. This would allow his censorship to extend to member clubs which defeats the purpose of local control.

For all of these reasons, I'm working to build up the US Hawks as a central repository of information. Unlike hanggliding.org (which prohibits links to the US Hawks), we welcome links to other sites. I often link to hanggliding.org or the Oz Report so our members can have a well-rounded view of our sport. Jack's refusal to allow anyone to post a link to US Hawks shows that he's more interested in ensuring his site's dominance than he is about really helping to promote the sport of hang gliding. In fact, Jack's censorship is so strong, I've been told that he's actually edited member's signature lines to remove any references to the US Hawks. As an experiment, try to add a link to the US Hawks in your own signature line on hanggliding.org and see what happens.

So thanks to everyone who's contributed to this site. Hopefully we can create a popular location where ALL views can be heard and discussed. Thanks for being a part of that process with every post you make.

[TadEareckson]

Nate's minor accident at PackSaddle

Accident? I've been looking at reports for decades trying to find examples of hang gliding accidents. Adam Parer - 2009/11/16 and Tim Martin - 2011/06/06 are pretty reasonable fits but I'm having a hard time remembering much else at the moment. Nate wasn't anywhere near the ballpark.

No one likes to post these events, or talk about it for that matter...

C'mon Darth, look at the numbers of posts and hits whenever there's a really spectacular pooch screw. Pretty much everybody LOVES to talk about them.

Of course there are always a FEW people - invariably in key positions - who REALLY don't like lotsa other people talking about them.

I post them up because they need to be read so that pilots don't make the same mistakes.

1. It's ALWAYS good to publicize crash information.

2. But there's very little that people tend to actually learn from them.

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

But do we question the wisdom of stopping gliders by whipstalling them at just the right instant two feet off the ground instead of just rolling them in like everybody else in fixed wing aviation does?

3. And what are we supposed to learn from this one? Don't land in rotors?

Emanuel was not even suppose to have a HG in his possession...

Where does it say that in USHGA or FAA regulations?

My opinion is that it was ENTIRELY appropriate for him to have purchased that glider. He was the equivalent of a pretty solid Hang 1.5 and - even if he had never touched a glider before - there's a lot of stuff you can learn safely on your own if you're smart and careful. There's A LOT of stuff you can learn on flat ground, preferably with a little breeze, where the risk factor is essentially zero.

And remember that Otto Lilienthal didn't have a card from anybody in his pocket when he started coming off the hill. And he lasted a lot longer than a lot of people under full supervision in USHGA certified training programs flying HGMA certified gliders.

No, it wasn't a great idea for Lemmy (his name was Lemuel, by the way) to go up on a winch in those conditions. But likewise we can all legally purchase bicycles - no questions asked - and blow through lights into busy intersections with inadequate understandings of control, brakes, and the green-yellow-red coding system.

...and John Stewards' accident, so young, and so sad for his family, that he only had an idea of how to fly a hang glider...

1. Accident?

2. So if he really didn't know how to fly a hang glider - and he DIDN'T - how come he was on a ramp with, in his pocket, a USHGA Hang Two card saying he DID?

Martins accident, to much in a rush to fly & forgot to hook in...

1. Accident?

2. Nobody ever launched unhooked because he was in too much of a rush, forgot to hook in, or was distracted. The ONLY reason ANYONE has EVER launched unhooked is because he didn't CHECK to see if he was hooked in within two seconds of launch.

3. And the reason hardly anyone ever checks to see he's hooked in within two seconds of launch is because his instructors and he choose to operate in flagrant violation of clear USHGA regulations.

4. Martin's instructors are a**holes. They have no business teaching.

5. Martin's an asshole. He has no business flying.

Nate's an asshole too - but my judgment on that really isn't influenced one way or another as a consequence of this incident.

...these events were kept undercover among flying clubs...

Mick Howard - 2010/10/04

My report was intended for hhpa and hgt club members participating in this event and was intended to consider areas for improvements next year. As with any unplanned event such as weak link break there is more to the story, and only those present will understand the context of my report, which was not intended for debate.

Zack C

Mick, I know your message wasn't intended for debate, but I do feel the incident is worth discussing. At least Tad brought it up under the 'Question' topic, for which it is quite relevant. That said...

You said the message was to consider areas for improvement. Wouldn't it be an improvement if we didn't have any weak link breaks next year?

What /was/ the story? Why did the weak link break? Why do we consider this kind of thing acceptable?

I haven't taken sides yet in this debate...I'm just asking questions. But I haven't seen anyone flocking to the defense of the universal Cortland 130 lb Dacron Trolling Line loop.

Mick

As said, my post was intended for our group but I made the mistake of posting it to the groups when I now realize I should have created a distribution list and sent the message to paid members, so in future I will avoid posting such matters to the group as I don't wish to engage in a conversation with someone who has demonstrated a lack of respect for others.

Sorry Mick. People don't deserve respect just for showing up and breathing. It needs to be earned. And people like you don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of ever getting it from me.

...if people keep braking the rules and not doing what they are suppose to do.

If people keep breaking rules why do we NEVER see fines, suspensions, and revocations? The way it works now is that everybody does whatever he feels like and when the rare random punishment comes around it's often a death sentence executed immediately and with no possibility of repeal.

H.A.W.K

?
hang check
air
wings level
klear
?

Not having a safety check list for towing...

What's on it?

If you've got a Wallaby Release lever on your downtube, a couple of Bailey Releases on your shoulders, a fresh loop of 130 pound Greenspot at the top end of your bridle, no wheels on your basetube, and Jim Rooney at the Dragonfly controls of the Dragonfly... Is it OK to go up?

Well, maybe - as long as you've hooked your backup suspension, locked your carabiner, and buckled your chin strap. Oh yeah - and have a hook knife readily accessible.

...and not having hook knifes...

Save the weight. Take up a can of tiger repellent instead. More likely to come in handy - even if you do all your flying on Prince Edward Island.

Not knowing how to fly a hang glider and hanging on for dear life

Shoot the instructor whose name is on the card.

Not doing the Pre-flights inspections

The gliders nowadays are pretty hard to put together dangerously wrong. Not to say don't do good preflights but I don't think we're seeing many significant problems as consequences of oversights in this department.

But... If you do NOTHING ELSE - load test the flying wires before every flight (or at least the first flight of the day if your discipline is as lousy as mine).

Unlike some of the other national forums, we don't ban people for not being liked.

I hope we encourage them and go out of our way to find them.

Zack C - 2010/11/04

Re: [HHPA] Tad Poll

Rich D(iamond):

>
Zack (mr moderator)
its replies like this from TADpole that We should not have to put up with his crapola anymore.
At the meeting or Now on line , i wish to Call for Vote by its HHPA members to Ban Tad .
<

Rich, as I said in the off-group meta-discussion, I'm OK with a vote if someone can quote me what he's said to warrant banning (either a violation of our current rules or a rule you think should exist). No one has. If his last post is so ban-worthy, you shouldn't have any trouble doing this.

Being an 'arrogant asshole' is not enough. We're not going to have rules legislating acceptable personalities.

That model tends to serve me well - let's stay with it.

There may be a reason to keep "wraps" on the information...

Yeah, there's ALWAYS a reason to keep wraps on the information. And it's ALWAYS the same one. And it's NEVER in the interests of the sport.

There are no requirements ... to joining the group, however.

For most people anyway.

The Austin Free Flight Association requires members to report incidents on their board, but in practice this is rarely done.

In hang gliding if the person still has a detectable pulse when he's loaded onto the chopper it's not defined as an incident. Therefore the clubs can often boast of eight to ten months of incident-free recreational flying - good times had by all!

Local Club Forums could also be a great source of information, but they're scattered across the country (and the world).

They also tend to be friendly and incestuous and suffering the ravages of inbreeding.

As an experiment, try to add a link to the US Hawks in your own signature line on hanggliding.org and see what happens.

Don't do that Zack. I need you to keep a moderately low profile so you can stay in there and harass Davis a bit whenever he rears his ugly head.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Local Club Forums could also be a great source of information, but they're scattered across the country (and the world).

They also tend to be friendly and incestuous and suffering the ravages of inbreeding.

Another good reason to bring them together with each other so they can exchange fresh ideas.

As an experiment, try to add a link to the US Hawks in your own signature line on hanggliding.org and see what happens.

Don't do that Zack. I need you to keep a moderately low profile so you can stay in there and harass Davis a bit whenever he rears his ugly head.

Do you really think Jack or Davis would ban Zack for adding a link to the US Hawks and/or KiteStrings in his own signature line? I actually don't think they'd be that transparent. I don't think they can afford to continually create enemies by banning people for posting links to sites they support.

Here's what I think would happen. I've been told that another fellow had a link to US Hawks in his signature line and Jack actually went in and changed it himself. I think Jack might go that far because he knows that Google rates sites based on who links to them. Jack knows that he's got the biggest hang gliding site and he knows that any links from his site to either US Hawks or KiteStrings will increase our rankings on Google. So he's using his muscle to try to keep our sites from being highly ranked even though many of his own members feel our sites are worthy of visiting (by the way, this might be an anti-trust violation). He gets away with it only because there are not enough people who want to challenge him.

Now Zack obviously appreciates what you've written on KiteStrings and US Hawks. I believe Zack feels this information could be helpful to himself and others. He might even feel that it would help to save lives. So he should have every right to share that link just as so many other posters share their own favorite links. The fact that either Jack or Davis would prevent that exposes a serious problem within the hang gliding community as it currently exists. I think that problem needs to be exposed, and I encourage anyone willing to do it.

[TadEareckson]

Another good reason to bring them together with each other so they can exchange fresh ideas.

1. The people most desperately in need of fresh ideas are the ones most likely to act to make sure nobody hears them.

2. Those people constitute an overwhelming majority.

3. Virtually all fresh ideas in hang gliding were well established a century ago in REAL aviation.

I actually don't think they'd be that transparent.

I find that the levels of transparency they routinely get away with is absolutely stunning.

I don't think they can afford to continually create enemies by banning people for posting links to sites they support.

Why not? Stalin managed things for himself quite well and never suffered any repercussions.

...(by the way, this might be an anti-trust violation).

Along my lines of thinking that the best hope for hang gliding is to have USHGA sued out of existence.

So he should have every right to share that link just as so many other posters share their own favorite links.

Yeah, he SHOULD. And you, Scott, and I SHOULD be able to engage in civilized discussions wherever we want.

The fact that either Jack or Davis would prevent that exposes a serious problem within the hang gliding community as it currently exists.

Yeah. And?

Since when did shooting messengers stop being a really effective strategy for solving any and all serious problems within the hang gliding community as it currently exists - and always has and will?

I think that problem needs to be exposed, and I encourage anyone willing to do it.

Welcome to the Gulag.

[DarthVader]

...and John Stewards' accident, so young, and so sad for his family, that he only had an idea of how to fly a hang glider...

Tad, You already know the answer to that question anyone white, rich or, that has a good paying job can get a hang 2 rating in one day or, two being pulled up to altitude and that goes fly or die trying.



Mick statement says it all and writes ase follows:

As said, my post was intended for our group but I made the mistake of posting it to the groups when I now realize I should have created a distribution list and sent the message to paid members, so in future I will avoid posting such matters to the group as I don't wish to engage in a conversation with someone who has demonstrated a lack of respect for others.

Mick Let's the cat out of the bag:

It appears that hang gliding is a secret society and every club should keep their secrets. It's not Ment for the masses of people that don't know about it, Like Hispanics, Chicanos, Afro Americans, Oriental, Poor Mofos, or anyone else that wants to fly.

Even though Mick is taking about that he F*cked up by posting and making it public and making it clear, to open a whole new can of worns by his little head running statement;

I guess in this part he is taking about you:

I don't wish to engage in a conversation with someone who has demonstrated a lack of respect for others.

Most of these dudes are older gentlemen, they have already lived their lives and they don't enjoy the new breed of pilots that are coming up in the game, the ones that do are the instructors that some are raking it in to the cash box.

I agree with you Tad 100% that there must be a major change in the USHPA if they are going to be paying insurance every-time some pilot flies in to someones living room or car . I think Paul Voight and his son Jr. Voight is taking care of that part and raking it in to the bank. By taking special observers permits away and making them go to

their instructor clinic

and charging up guacamole to attend it. It's all money Tad, it's not about just buying a hang glider and having fun flying it, you must join their society and be a player for their team since they got the toys and the sites and all the other BS that goes with it, and if you are not a player you are black balled among their, 5000 HG members, since the paragliders are taking over I can see why people don't want to fly hang gliders and are starting to take up paragliding instead. A nice location where there is mountains and no USHPA members that fly that area should take care of that problem.