US Hawks Hang Gliding Association

MODERATOR'S NOTE: The posts below were split off from the topic:

    "2011 US Nationals, Big Spring, Texas"

This was done to allow the original topic to continue as it was intended. It was also done with the permission of Tad who was one of the main contributors to that topic. There were no other objections voiced to the split.

The title of the topic was then changed to:

    "Discussion with Tad about Towing / Foot Launch"

============================== Tad's Original Post Starts Here =================================

Jeez, two tug pilots killed so far this year...

Two Dragonflies totaled, one driver (probably) badly injured, one driver killed. The one that was killed was not functioning as a tug pilot - or, in fact, any kind of pilot - when she was killed. The tow was safely enough over. And there's no indication - as of yet - that the one who wasn't killed crashed because of a particularly tow related issue.

...and they're holding tow-me-up-Scottie Nats.

Yeah, it's not like anyone was ever killed at a mountain based competition as a consequence of a mountain launch issue.

Call me old-fashioned, I never towed.

If you had been REALLY old-fashioned - a la Bills Bennett and Moyes - you probably would have.

If I can't footlaunch off a mountain, I'm not interested.

The airport is one hour away, the mountain two and a half. I'd rather spend the three hour round trip difference drifting over flatland than burning fossil fuel on the Interstate.

But that's just me being a curmudgeon.

That's my job - and I was here first.

Besides, what could be more boring than drifting over flat land?

a) an extra three hours on the Interstate
b) hike-ins
c) vehicle shuttles
d) wire crewing
e) waiting for safe cycles
f) refraining from beating launch potatoes to bloody pulps
g) trying to convince people to tension their suspension just BEFORE launch
h) quickly breaking down in the LZ after sinking out in hopes of getting another shot
i) waiting for retrievals
j) hitchhiking
k) dehydration
l) heat exhaustion
m) setting back up for second tries
n) ridge soaring
o) watching everyone else fly 'cause you were noble and crewed till there was nobody left to do your wires
p) rescuing bozos from treetops
q) mowing the lawn 'cause it's too cross today
r) wasting five hours on the Interstate in the course of finding out the hard way it's too cross today
s) site maintenance days
t) driving from Orlando to Chattanooga
u) driving to workable altitude with the glider folded and rolled up on top of a truck versus flying to workable altitude with the glider on the end of a string
v) breaking a foot on a log at the side of the slot after groundlooping in catabatic air

How many more letters are left?

Have fun if you think that's what fun is.

The most fun I've ever had on a glider was soaring the dunes at Jockeys Ridge - sometimes with a tip tracing through the sand.

The most amazing flights I've ever had have involved climbing thousands of feet in pure thermal lift up into the clouds over the pancake flat Delmarva Peninsula, often in swirls of other gliders, sometimes in the company of an Eagle or two or three, then landing a hundred yards away from my car after things shut down.

Working as a Kitty Hawk instructor for the 1982 season I watched the Comet Clones tape a few zillion times when classes were blown out. Pretty amazing, never got tired of it, thanks zillions.

But...

1. The development of hang gliding - and aviation - owes a great deal to people who flew their planes on the ends of strings.

2. Gasoline, trucks, winches, tugs, ropes, mountains, and ramps are all dangerous necessary evils we use to get our gliders up high enough to start using them for what they were designed to do.

3. When you're at cloudbase it shouldn't really matter how you got into the air two hours ago or what's underneath you (as long as it isn't suburban sprawl, strip mining devastation, or an ocean).

4. I don't think it does a whole lot for hang gliding to denigrate the aspect of the sport that makes it available to the greatest number of people - especially when you've never even given it a shot.

5. And - like Sam says - the Owens hasn't held the world XC record for a very long time.

Hi Rick,

It's impossible to say anything that doesn't set Tad off. His people skills make me look like a world class diplomat.

We're still trying to house train him here on US Hawks, so please don't be too offended.

Thanks!!

Bob Kuczewski

P.S. I think Tad's main goal is to prove that I was wrong to institute a free speech policy on this forum.

Watch'em Tad. Watch'em like a Hawk.

I bought my first two hang gliders from Bill Bennett in the mid 70's. Quit flying in '78 (remember '78?) and took up mountaineering. Something much safer, eh?
The finest Nationals I ever had the honor to attend was in '96 (or was it '98?) at Colorado's finest (foot launch) flying site which is really in Utah.
Many of my personal heros were there, Terry Reynolds, Kari, Jim Lee (is he still out to sea?), many others. Lots and lots of pilots.
Although I much prefer to foot launch, I have to admit that it is much easier to aero-tow...it is like climbing behind someone who uses a lot of white chalk on their hands...
All that added energy though...scares the crap outta me.
And you know, Mountains and valleys are beautiful...airfields suck.
There is not much fly fishing or climbing or hiking or ...that goes on at airfields.
By the way grasshopper, it is the journey, not the destination.
I love to hike.
I have the world's greatest driver.
At least in the mountains I can pick my cycles.
I love ridge soaring. Come on out to the Guadalupes if you think ridges soaring is necessarily low level or boring.
Oh yeah, I forgot, you easterners have a problem with self launching. You probably have a really big problem with the solo dude who heads up to his favorite mountain site alone too. What's next, ban free solo climbing in Yosimite?
I started HG because it was a solo sport. I have never flown tandem nor do I intend to. I will leave that to folks like Stack, or Beardsley, or Bilsky.
Wouldn't know anything about Orlando or Chatanoogie. But I am pretty sure they are east of the Mississippi.
Driving is a lot less complicated with a lot less energy transfer to the glider than towing. I have done lots of boat, platform, and aero towing. However, amongst the tow options, get a good tug and pilot and hand the tow line to me.
It is just a hunch, but maybe you should not launch in a slot with catatonic conditions.
I love flying the dunes.

All kidding aside, Aero towing in Texas lately has been nothing short of awesome. The Big Spring event is an incedibly well run and very fun event with lots of local support. Given the heat and dry conditions, things are very similar to the year they held Nats at Hearne, Texas.

One last note, for you Philly boys, I heard Joe Pa was injured today in a collision with a player. I wish him a speedy recovery.

Pilgrim

Bob,

For one big happy family and diplomatic speech that offends the fewest number of people there's always USHPA and Hang Gliding magazine.

Here Rick gets to say:

Have fun if you think that's what fun is.

and I get to react to it. Aerotowing was my dream for hang gliding long before it existed in any safe and practical form and working and fighting to make it safe was what ended my flying career. So, yeah, I found Rick's comment more than a bit offensive. Brought to mind the following exchange from the aforementioned Hang Gliding magazine...

John C. Johnson - 1986/09
Phoenix

Nothing is worth having if it comes too easily (at least not over and over, with a few exceptions). Soaring flight is a tremendous treat we earn. But how soon its thrill dulls when it is handed to us. I submit that at least fifty percent of hang gliding's appeal is NOT soaring, or even getting into the air. For those times are what make flight so sweet, and bring us back for more. High-tech videos aren't where it's at, and neither is easy air time. F--- the masses, let them destroy the desert in their ATCs. Towing (and other easy air time devices) are insidious tools designed to move us apart. When we lose our challenge we lose our sport. Where is the "sport" to just towing up again when you sink out? I'm scared, I see towing swaying my friends. I see towing undoing what ultralights could not!

Challenge is, has always been, the essence of hang gliding (not "sky sailing" -- gag me). Mountains, ugly trucks, and occasional triumphs keep me in the air. Maybe I'm a dinosaur, time will tell. But if this beautiful sport is distilled into an easy recreational event, please do change the name because it won't be hang gliding.

Harold Austin - 1986/11
Royal Oak, Michigan

I would like to respond to a letter from John Johnson about towing.

I don't know for sure, but it sounds like John has a mountain in his backyard. He should live in Michigan, Ohio, or Kansas. Talk about your easy air time John. Try driving 250 miles ONE WAY to your 'local' soaring site, a four hundred foot bluff, and hope the weather forecast was right. Well, I've done just that about every other weekend during our soaring season for the past ten years.

Want to know about challenge John? Try towing at our site in the Manistee National Forest; you get "handed" an eight hundred foot tow, ceilings on a GOOD DAY are almost three thousand feet and you start your XC over the forest.

John, we have a great gift and it should be shared with the "masses." It seems you don't want people to know just how easy hang gliding is, because if they found out you might lose your macho image, and if towing catches on (and it is!) you'll lose that edge (you didn't earn) of living close to a site.

If those of us who were involved in hang gliding from the beginning (I built and flew my first glider, a Bat Glider in 1968 and progressed up to a Colver Flying Wing, and a number of Hang Looses) felt the way you do, you most likely would not be flying today! And gliders would not have evolved into the soaring wings they are.

John, I'm afraid that you can't see the flat lands for the mountains. If our sport, the industry and the USHGA is going to grow or even survive it needs to bring hang gliding to the flat lands where it is new and exciting, and to a vast number of potential pilots. We will all benefit.

And as long as I'm in heightened offensive mode... John's letter was one of the most concentrated heaps of pure unadulterated rot I've ever read on the subject of hang gliding ('cept for the "F--- the masses" part). Anyone who doesn't want his soaring time as convenient, easy, cheap, safe, frequent, and plentiful as possible is probably running low on his anti-psychotic medication and definitely a menace to society.

Sam,

Don't worry.

Pilgrim,

All that added energy though...scares the crap outta me.

1. Probably wouldn't take me too long to come up with a fatality report that begins with "After a weak launch run..."

2. If one listens to what's going on on runways, carrier decks, and launch pads the world over one might conclude that as much added energy as possible is a good thing.

3. The only thing that really scares the crap outta me is someone suddenly being deprived of all that added energy - by some idiot at the other end of the towline, an idiot loop of 130 pound Greenspot, or a lanyard on Eric Aasletten's wrist that tightens when the glider pitches up in a dust devil.

4. At any time all that added energy becomes problematic you always have the option of eliminating it.

And you know, Mountains and valleys are beautiful...airfields suck.

OK, let's make some resolutions...

1. All mountains shall be carved with roads to suitable launches at or near the tops.

2. No airstrips shall be permitted in valleys or on mountain plateaus.

3. If you ever enjoyed the seeing the Great Blue Herons, Ospreys, Eagles, Red-tails, Kestrels, Turkey Vultures, Laughing Gulls, Tree Swallows, Horned Larks, Quail, Turkeys, Pileated Woodpeckers, Deer, Leopard Frogs, Spring Peepers, Gray Treefrogs, Painted Turtles, Crayfish, Muskrats, Hog-Nosed Snakes, Luna Moths in the sky, fields, swamps, ponds, and streams at Ridgely Airpark you are one sick motherfucker and in serious need of treatment.

There is not much fly fishing or climbing or hiking or ...that goes on at airfields.

1. When I've got a tensioned glider, some means of getting it in the air, and a good lapse rate I'm extremely interested in not fly fishing, hiking, and - under my own power anyway - climbing.

2. You're gonna have a lot better luck fly fishing at the sucky Ridgely airfield than you are at the beautiful and sterile coal mine draining West Branch of the Susquehanna 1250 feet below the Hyner View.

I have the world's greatest driver.

Me too - me. I get to set up, take off, land, and break down pretty much right next to my car.

At least in the mountains I can pick my cycles.

And you can't when you're on a cart looking at the back end of a Dragonfly?

I got news for ya. That thing don't move until the guy on the glider says OK.

And, for dolly and platform launches, cycles tend to be non issues anyway.

Come on out to the Guadalupes if you think ridges soaring is necessarily low level or boring.

There's a good chance I could enjoy exploring some new turf. But I got so burned out on the ridge scene in this part of the country that I'm afraid I'm not champing at the bit.

Oh yeah, I forgot, you easterners have a problem with self launching.

Yeah, I've seen what can happen.

You probably have a really big problem with the solo dude who heads up to his favorite mountain site alone too.

No. I used to be the solo dude who headed up to his favorite mountain site alone. But just because I headed there alone didn't mean I had to launch alone. Usually didn't take too long before I could find a very willing scenic overlooker to boost my safety margin a bit. And I wasn't out there to prove anything to anyone about my rugged individualism.

I started HG because it was a solo sport.

I started 'cause I always wanted to fly like a bird.

I have never flown tandem nor do I intend to.

I never had any desire - or need - to. But if it makes it easier for some people to get into the sport and qualify...

Driving is a lot less complicated with a lot less energy transfer to the glider than towing.

And a lot less interesting and fun.

Get a good tug and pilot...

Good luck. A good tug has a weak link stronger than yours and a good tug pilot knows what a weak link is. I doubt you're gonna do very well anywhere in the US.

...and hand the tow line to me.

Getting the towline handed to you when you're on the cart is almost always a good thing.

John Moody - 2010/02/03

Bob, Zack,

Thanks for the clarification on that Tad Eareckson letter.

Bob, I had already looked over the first two links you posted about the Capitol Hang Gliding Club and knew that Tad was an active member in the early '90's and I had also looked over his Flicker pictures of releases. It was the third link that turned out to be the really good one. I read the whole thread from top to bottom, about a three hour chore for me and keeping score as it bounced from person to person was hard for a while. The one thing I found I could seriously relate to was Tad Eareckson. He is my newest Hero now. In a nutshell, he argued that more times than not, staying on the rope is better than blowing a weaklink or having the rope handed to you by an observer. He made the point clearly that a weaklink's only purpose is to protect the aircraft and of course the really big one that some pilots fail to understand: a weaklink will not prevent a lockout and in fact probably won't even be strained by one! Getting off the rope IS THE PILOT'S DECISION. The other side of his argument, and the part that started the conversation, is that mandating the maximum strength of a weaklink is crazy - what should be mandated is the MINIMUM strength.

His argument is that having a weaklink blow up in your face when you really need the tow force is the more dangerous situation. Getting off the rope is not always the right answer. There are more factors involved and only the pilot can be aware of them.

Getting the rope handed to you by some asshole...

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

...is ALWAYS a bad thing. I can name you a lot of people - myself amongst them - who've been crashed, mangled, and/or killed because some asshole has handed them the rope - either deliberately or by using a dangerous front end weak link.

It is just a hunch, but maybe you should not launch in a slot with catatonic conditions.

Yeah. I figured that out right after I did. But that was much too late.

But on a launch dolly behind a Dragonfly it doesn't matter. So gene pool crud such as yours truly have better chances of sticking around longer and pumping more life giving carbon dioxide into the atmosphere for the benefit of future generations.

I love flying the dunes.

Much happier times. Ignorance was bliss.

I have to disagree that cycles are not important on platform or dolly launches. I have seen far too many people get in real trouble and or die launching into bad cycles at the wrong time. I have a very difficult time ascertaining the exact loacalized conditions whilst lying on my face just inches off of the ground. And at most flight parks there is tremendous pressure to launch, and to launch even if you are not sure of conditions. How can you be aware while laying on the ground?

In contrast, when foot launching, I can see all around me. I can see thermal activity and winds in the trees and dust. I can see what the birds are doing. I can see what other pilots are doing. I can feel my glider and it can tell me when things are right. There can absolutely be no doubt that the energy added to an HG by a tug or winch greatly increases the chance of an early death.

Bottom line, Foot launching rules and is the only TRUE form of free flight. If getting in the air is your only motivation, get a real plane with a motor and go join GA. Not me.

Pilgrim

I agree with Rick.

Running down a slope, being seamlessly lifted into the air by the glider, flying away like superman, without a care in the world is pure joy and happiness.



Towing hgs adds multiple layers of complexity, worry and is simply unfun.




Don't worry Bob. I had Noman machine up a flame shield for for my monitor.

Pilgrim,

I have to disagree that cycles are not important on platform or dolly launches.

I didn't say they weren't important. I said:

...cycles tend to be non issues anyway.

Meaning I can launch in a ten mile an hour tailwind off a dolly better than you can launch in a ten mile an hour tailwind off a ramp.

I have seen far too many people get in real trouble and or die launching into bad cycles at the wrong time.

1. At as great or greater a rate than you have with slope launching?

2. I know the circumstances of one of the people you saw get into real trouble and die launching into a bad and totally predictable cycle at the wrong time. But he didn't die as a consequence of BEING ON tow - he died as a consequence of COMING OFF tow.

3. I'd LOVE to hear about some of the other people you've seen getting in real trouble on tow launches 'cause I'm always looking for them and don't know of that many.

I have a very difficult time ascertaining the exact loacalized conditions whilst lying on my face just inches off of the ground.

I have a very difficult time ascertaining the exact localized conditions whilst buckled into a center aisle seat in the back of an Airbus A380. But I know there's someday who DOESN'T a couple hundred feet in front of me who's probably better at assessing the situation than I am.

Likewise when I'm hooked up behind a Dragonfly the chances are that - while the guy may be and probably is a total douchebag - he's probably had more successful takeoffs so far this weekend than I have in my entire life and he doesn't wanna launch into something that's gonna kill him at least as much as I don't. And his launch and landing limitations tend to be a whole lot more restrictive than mine are.

And at most flight parks there is tremendous pressure to launch, and to launch even if you are not sure of conditions.

1. See above.

2. Name me ONE tow pilot who got scraped or worse 'cause he succumbed to pressure to launch into dangerous or questionable conditions.

3. A person who is nervous about conditions can ALWAYS save everybody behind him a lot more time by unhooking from the towline or getting off the truck than he can by going through with the launch.

How can you be aware while laying on the ground?

Who cares?

1. If it's a responsible operation there are ribbons along the runway.

2. You can watch ribbons and feel air in your face while you're lying on the dolly.

3. You can feel the air and what your glider's doing during the LOOOOONG takeoff roll.

4. And if you don't like it you can abort the tow and stay on the dolly.

5. And if you get airborne you can still abort the tow instantly and be in about the same shape you would've been in a comparable slope launch situation.

6. What's the second thoughts option once you take the first step on the ramp?

In contrast, when foot launching, I can see all around me. I can see thermal activity and winds in the trees and dust. I can see what the birds are doing. I can see what other pilots are doing.

In contrast, when dolly launching and relative to being on an exposed face of a slope one or two or three thousand feet up, there IS NO thermal activity and the trees are safely out of striking range. And it doesn't matter what the birds and other pilots are doing 'cause they're all one or two or three thousand feet up where there IS thermal activity where you're gonna be three or four minutes from now.

There can absolutely be no doubt that the energy added to an HG by a tug or winch greatly increases the chance of an early death.

bulls***. We're not seeing them. The people who are getting hurt and killed on tow are getting hurt and killed because they're foot launching when they don't have to, using shitrigged equipment, being pulled by incompetent douchebags, and/or are allowed to go in over their heads. And I defy you to provide any anecdotal scraps which indicate otherwise.

And I can make a pretty good case that towing is killing more people because the added energy is insufficient and/or suddenly subtracted.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

That hasn't changed. What HAS changed is that starting about 1981 the douchebags who control this sport decided that rope breaks and premature releases were actually GOOD things and should be deliberately built into the systems.

Bottom line, Foot launching rules and is the only TRUE form of free flight. If getting in the air is your only motivation, get a real plane with a motor and go join GA.

bulls***.

1. Look at the title of the thread.

2. Tell that to the sailplane crowd.

3. Getting in the air is not my motivation - thermal soaring is.

4. I've got a real plane, it doesn't have a motor, and it only uses a motor to get to a flying site and up to workable altitude - just like yours does.

5. If hang gliding WERE covered under General Aviation I'd be able to get the right people out of circulation and properly jailed and I'd be having a lot more fun now.

miguel,

I agree with Rick.

Who's never towed. Big surprise.

Running down a slope, being seamlessly lifted into the air by the glider, flying away like superman, without a care in the world is pure joy and happiness.

Without a caaaaare in the world. No concern about the practically free gasoline it took to move the three thousand pounds of metal underneath your glider up the mountain, the resources it takes to maintain and repair the road, and how your Suburban is gonna get back down the mountain and meet you in the LZ. Oh wait - you probably just spoke the instructions into the GPS unit.

Towing hgs adds multiple layers of complexity, worry and is simply unfun.

Yeah, the tens of thousands of us who do it and the top competition pilots in the world who flock in from all over the world to Florida, Texas, and Australia to do it are all totally delusional. They should really start listening to YOU.

Zack C - 2011/03/04

As for platform launching, I was nervous about it when I started doing it. It looked iffy, like things could get bad fast. I've since logged around a hundred platform launches and have seen hundreds more. Never once was there any issue. I now feel platform launching is the safest way to get a hang glider into the air (in the widest range of conditions). You get away from the ground very quickly and don't launch until you have plenty of airspeed and excellent control.

Lemme tell you some other things that add layers of complexity and worry and make things simply unfun in mountain flying that don't exist at all or as comparable factors in dolly and platform launch towing.

a) launch ramps
b) cliffs
c) slots
d) shallow slopes
e) running launches
f) wire crews
g) hook-in failures
h) light air
i) crosswinds
j) venturis
k) catabatic flows
l) rocks
m) trees
n) inability to abort
o) rotors

There. That's safely over half the alphabet - and I can probably attach a fatality or two to every one of those items.

Those photos are all lies. Save for the string, you used damn near everything you showed in the bottom two photos - chassis, engine, fuel, battery, rotor brake assembly, gauges, axle, tires, driver's seat, and much much more - to get you to the point of the photo at the top. 'Cept you hid it all under a sleek coating of painted sheet metal and cut it out of the photo completely to create the illusion that you just strolled up to launch with everything you needed in a small backpack to pretend you're Superman.

And all that crap hidden underneath all that sheet metal is only good for one to - if you carpool - four launches before it's gotta be driven - by someone - all the back down to the LZ where all the gliders need to be broken down and hauled back up before you can even start thinking about giving them second shots.

Whatta crock.

I tend to prefer foot launching as well. Here's what I like about it:

    #1   I am in control.
    #2   I am in control.
    #3   I am in control.

Any kind of towing puts some degree of control over my life into someone else's hands. And given my experience with people, I generally find that somewhat unsettling. I also didn't want to fly tandem during my retraining in 2004 (I had some early solo flights in 1978).

Having said that, when I was going through Joe Greblo's school in 2004, he required tandem flights as part of their program. I wasn't happy, but I went along with it. I took my first tandem flight with Joe, and I ended up finding that the tandem flights were extremely valuable for confidently exploring the safe envelope of flight. If Joe was happy with a maneuver while hanging right beside me, then it must have been reasonably safe to have done.

I was similarly (and pleasantly) surprised by my only towing flight so far (a tandem aerotow with Malcolm at Wallaby). Malcom had me fly the entire launch and flight (except for a quick landing to get him back to work), and it was amazingly smooth. Up until that point, I was very unsure about wanting to do any towing at all. But that tow flight changed my mind, and I hope to get back down there as soon as my other obligations will allow.

I guess my point is that stepping outside of our own comfort zones isn't always bad.   

Good luck in sunny Florida.

P.S. And after how much tow launch experience?