Personal Journals about Hang Gliding

Re: Rick Masters: Superiority of Hang Gliders

Postby AirNut » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:03 pm

RickMasters wrote:The problem is that soaring parachutists continue to accept the possibility of death or injury by sudden collapse. This is beyond my comprehension


Unfortunately, 65 years of experience has taught me the sad lesson that human beings have a limitless capacity for self-deception. It's hard for any of us to think completely rationally at all times. Some of us try harder at it than others, but some seem to never do it.

People deluding themselves, or living in denial, I must therefore (reluctantly) accept. That comes with the territory of being human. What is unacceptable to me is the deception of others, particularly when it's a matter of life and death (as aviation sometimes is). And worse, if it's in the pursuit of profit.

Self-deception usually presents as that old mantra: "it won't happen to me because I'm cleverer/faster/smarter/luckier/more experienced than that other guy" (I'll admit that I've been down that path myself). The deception of others in the PG community is this seeming 'company line' that PG collapses are always controllable (they're not), happen predictably (they don't), and can always be safely dealt with by 'active flying', greater experience, or by just being better than the next guy (they can't). Although this may be true some of the time, when your life it is stake, we'd like 'five nines' reliability (as the engineers say), i.e. 99.999 percent. As individuals, we may decide to accept a lower safety level for a greater reward (basic risk assessment), but we should do that with eyes open and with as much understanding of the risks as possible. Lowering the safety level on someone else's behalf without there knowledge or understanding borders on a criminal act, certainly an immoral one.

I just don't think that the vast majority of PG pilots have made anything like a true risk assessment of what they do, but have just absorbed the mythology of their community. This is particularly sad in the case of beginners, who don't have the knowledge and experience to undertake a reasonable risk assessment, but are truly at the mercy of their instructors and community. We can only hope that by getting the true information out there, as Rick and others have been doing, we can reach these people (victims?) before they make that first decision to get into PG, or convert those more experienced PG'ers who get dis-enchanted later on in their flying career.

Sorry for the rant, but that last video that Rick posted really brought all that home to me. Very sad. :(
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Re: Rick Masters: Superiority of Hang Gliders

Postby AirNut » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:16 pm

A little more on risk analysis (a very interesting subject, particularly when your life is at stake).

A good example about this self-deception and flawed thinking that can arise in risk assessment came from the aftermath of the Challenger explosion in 1986. Richard Feynman, a physics laureate and member of the Rogers Commission into the disaster, found that their was a widespread belief within NASA that the shuttle was 'five nines' reliable per flight, i.e. 99.999 percent chance of a safe flight per mission. Interestingly, it emerged that this belief was only held by some NASA managers. All of the lower-level engineers that Feynman spoke to thought the the actual reliability was a lot lower than that. Most were reluctant to come up with a figure, but one of the astronauts themselves thought that it was something like 1 in 200 per flight (a figure roughly vindicated by the actual flight history since then).

Incidentally, Feynman was never able to find out where this five nines figure actually came from, but apparently there were some references in very early design documents that stated that a 'design goal' should be five nines reliability, 'similar to airliners'. No subsequent study or analysis every supported that figure. It just seemed to seep through higher-level NASA management by osmosis (similarly to what I thnk happens in sport flying communities, such as skydiving, or PG).

So here you had a situation in which upper-level managers (and therefore the general public and politicians) were operating on the assumption (and an assumption it was) that the Shuttle had the reliability of an airliner. And of course, 'operating on the assumption' meant making day-to-day flight planning decisions, e.g. if it's airliner-safe, we can safely fly a civilian on the Shuttle (the Teacher-In-Space project). Those closer to the reality, particularly the astronauts themselves, thought that the Shuttle was a 'dangerous rocket system' (a quote from the Challenger pilot, Dick Scobee). I seem to recall also that Dick Scobee said somewhere something like "you know that someday one of these things is going to explode". As a post-note, I read somewhere that, some years back, NASA revised its assessment of the Shuttle'e reliability to 1 in 150 (interestingly, in line with what the engineers and astronauts had been estimating all along).

I see a lot of parallels between what happened with Challenger and what's going on now in the PG community: namely, a wide disparity between the community mythology and the actual reality of the risk levels involved.

And here's a question for you Rick, is it possible to get some idea of the comparative risk between HG and PG? I know this is a pretty daunting task, given the variables and the poor reporting. But one (accepted) way of tabulating risk in this kind of situation is to look at death and injury rates per participant per year. In PG/HG injury rates would, I imagine, be pretty difficult to tabulate, but I think we can get a much better idea about fatalities, such as Rick has been doing. What is missing, in order to make a reasonable comparison between HG and PG, are participation rates.

From all that I've read and analysed, both in Australia, the US and overseas, for HG the fatality rate is about 1,000 per participant per year. This figure comes up in a variety of reports and studies, and also lines up (roughly) with anecdotal evidence. Rick, would it be possible to estimate this figure for PG? Starting with your fatality stats, we would just need the participation rates over the same period. I don't know whether that should be USHPA membership or some other number: that's the difficult part, I suppose.

Knowing this figure would reveal some very interesting things. Interestingly, the figure of 1 in 1,000 per participant per year (for HG) is similar to that of sailplane flying, skydiving and even scuba diving. This to me suggest that, at that rate, you are down past equipment issues and are looking at raw human nature. What I mean by this is that if you assemble 1,000 people and get them to do something risky (but with quantifiable risk), you would end up with around one person who'll kill themselves regardless, perhaps because they are foolhardy, self-deluded, have a Jehova complex or are otherwise self-deluded. In other words, I think that human nature alone will kill roughly 1 in 1,000 of us per year.

If on the other hand, the figure turns out to be, say, ten times higher, then that would indicate the presence of other unknowns or factors, e.g. design and equipment flaws, or a random risk element somewhere (e.g. atmospheric turbulence + design flaw = death). I think that something like this was going on in the early days of HG, later eliminated by design improvements, better training, better culture etc. Maybe this is what's going on now in the PG community.

So, does anyone know of any respectable report/study that estimates this figure, i.e. the PG fatality rate per participant per year? Or, can we estimate this ourselves, particularly working off Rick's data? If we know this value and can make it known to prospective PG pilots, it might be a way of giving them some reasonable risk-assessment data before they make their fateful decision to take up PGs. For example, I think most rational people (the irrational ones are a lost cause), would lean towards HG over PG if they knew that their chance of dying was, say, ten times less.

One last word on probabilities and statistics. Many people have a flawed understanding of probability (which helps with the whole self-deception thing in aviation). Mike Meier has written effectively about this ("Why Can't We Get a Handle On This Safety Thing" https://www.willswing.com/articles/Article.asp?reqArticleName=HandleOnSafety ), but the essence is that to get the probability of two unconnected events happening in a row, we multiply the probabilities. For example, if the chance of there being a bomb on an airliner is one in a million, the chance of there being two bombs on the same plane (again, unconnected), the chance is one in a million times one in a million, i.e. one in a trillion.

This is why, whenever I fly on an airliner, I carry a bomb on board myself ;) , thereby increasing the bad odds to one in a trillion! Obviously, this logic is flawed, but exactly where is the flaw (I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader).

Now take all the complexities of real-life aviation with all its variables and see how any real calculation or understanding of probability becomes much more difficult. But the biggest risk-assessment mistake that I see is the old "I've done this safely (.e. not died) X times before", for whatever choice of "X" you like. People use this argument every day to 'prove' that what they do is safe (particularly in the PG community when they attack Rick's fatality data, or the PDMC analysis). But the flaw in this, as pointed out by Mike Meier's excellent article, and by the Challenger accident, is that doing something safely (i.e. not dying) 100 times in a row, only proves that the real underlying probability of death over that number of tries, is of the rough order of 1 in 100. Probability theory even states that it could be much worse than that and you've just had a 'lucky run'.

So, we can't judge our real 'underlying' safety based on how many times we've flown without dying, other than as a lower limit. A full understanding has to be based on other factors, such as a reasoned risk assessment, on rational thinking, and experimentation (the HGMA certification program comes to mind). I don't know how much of that is going on in the PG world, but from what I've seen (by observation, I don't fly PGs) it seems to be fueled largely on bravado and Space Shuttle-like ignorance and little else (a bit like the early days of HG). Maybe, knowing the true probability of dying flying your PG would be a good start in the right direction.

P.S. Sorry about the very long post, but it's a fascinating topic and one that I'm passionate about (obviously).
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Re: Rick Masters: Superiority of Hang Gliders

Postby Rick Masters » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:48 pm

When I began examining the safety claims of soaring parachutists in 2007, warning bells started going off in my head triggered by my training in journalism and mathematics. They were all spouting "statistics" but when I looked deeper, the numbers were being manipulated. First and foremost, there were no trustworthy lists of fatalities, injuries, pilots flying, pilots retired, or importantly, how many pilots were flying in different types of air. Without a list, a beginning number, statistics become conjecture in the blink of an eye. But it seemed that every country's numbers were being skewed to provide a more favorable impression of paragliding. Germany, Britain, Australia, NZ, NA and Scandanavia were pretty responsible, Russia and the former eastern bloc spotty at best, France and Italy somewhat obscure, Spain, Turkey and South America laughable and Asia a black hole.

For instance, most training occurred in laminar coastal air but most deaths occurred in turbulent inland air. The trend in the schools seemed to be to sell beginners easy, slow paragliders, followed by a second sale a year or so later of a faster, more difficult-to-fly paraglider for the purpose of flying inland (airframe country). Yet the coastal numbers were always combined with the inland numbers to pad the safety ratio. Likewise, students sharing gliders (even just once) were each counted as pilots and people who had suspended their training were often kept on the books, padding the numbers further. I saw published, outrageous claims in those years of up to two million paragliders flying! This, with most manufacturers refusing to release the numbers of paragliders made. It was all nonsense - but it did fulfill a purpose. Higher reported numbers of participants could conjure up that magical figure of one in a thousand - the one claimed by hang gliding - and allow paragliding to mooch off hang gliding's safety record.

Eventually I had to forgo the numbers stated by organizations and rely on newspaper reports. Pilots like Scotty Marion would disappear on flights in foreign countries and not be counted by their home country or the country they had been visiting. Rumors of deaths in the third world were often impossible to track down. Foreign organizations were hostile to the release of information that would tarnish their image.

Anyway, the key to your question involves the safety of paragliders in turbulence because that's where they die. These are the wanna-be hang glider pilots who don't understand the significance of an airframe. Take the paragliders flying in rough air and divide by deaths and you will get the ratio. Forget their claims because they have no honest basis for them. The best clues are from the competitive circuit - all rough air daredevils - where almost everyone admits to having known pilots who have been killed and broken backs are endemic.

"What hardly gets mentioned is the fact that the turnover in pilots is relentless. Very few stick at it – most give up after 3 or 4 years. It’s a little like a medieval battle, with those at the back marching forwards over the bodies of the fallen at the front, unaware just how dangerous high-level competition is. It’s been the same ever since I started competing in 1994." -- Hugh Miller (UK)

I believe comparisons between PGs and HGs are meaningless. Paragliders collapse or go out of control and kill their helpless falling humans. Hang gliders offer a much wider range of in-control pilot error opportunities (imagine being able to play with pitch!). But if you want to compare them, do it like this: only count incidents involving hang gliders flying at paraglider speeds. What do you get?
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Re: Rick Masters: Superiority of Hang Gliders

Postby JoeF » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:20 am

Just elected Michelmore for Region 3 of U$hPa keeps allowance of a quote of his where soaring parachutes are promoted:

Michelmore wrote:Tree landings are generally considered the worst situation one might find themselves in. Hiking out of the jungle comes in a close second.


Pete Michelmore, what is your 2014 position on the "worst situation" for soaring parachutes?

.. in a long page of promotion, not a word on collapse-in-turbulence by a writer W. KNOX RICHARDSON. His article was written in 2006
http://www.oahuislandnews.com/Jan06/Frame.htm

Is there "gross negligence" occurring in the soaring parachute industry?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_negligence
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictiona ... negligence
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Re: Rick Masters: Superiority of Hang Gliders

Postby Rick Masters » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:31 am

On this day of December 18 - - -

in 2006, Ayşegül Oruç, a 29-year-old woman married to a paragliding instructor, went for a flight in Canaan, Turkey as her husband watched from the landing area. It was very windy that day and her paraglider collapsed at 1000 feet. She hit the ground hard, almost hard enough to kill her, right in front of her husband. Horribly injured, she was rushed to the hospital but soon died. Her husband experienced a mental breakdown.

in 2010, a very experienced soaring parachutist named Martin G_____ was practicing aerobatics near Brauneck, Germany, when he stalled at the top of his loop and fell into his sail. He threw his reserve but it tangled with the paraglider. He struck the ground on a parking lot between two cars, sustaining injuries so massive he soon died.

in 2012, a soaring parachutist in Deepdene, Australia broke his back in a crash.

I do not report tree landings or jungle hikes but Richardson, in his interview with Michelmore, writes, "'Water landings are bad because [you] get your cell phone wet and you have [to] clean your equipment,' he joked. With proper training, equipment, boots and helmets, the sport is much safer than any other free flight sport, such as hang gliding or skydiving."

The dishonest claim that paragliding is safer than hang gliding requires adding 16 years of hang gliding fatalities incurred before the advent of paragliding. My incomplete records indicate that Tomás López Rubio became the 467th person to die on a paraglider on January 8, 2006 in the Santiago Open. To make a safety comparison, you must measure hang gliding fatalities from the date of the first paragliding fatality beginning in 1986. The last hang gliding fatality preceding the first paragliding fatality occurred in 1985 and was the 505th in the history of the sport. 2005 ended with 694 total hang gliding fatalities and none occurred in 2006 before Rubio's death.

Total PG fatalities Jan 1986 to Jan 8, 2006 = 467
Total HG fatalities Jan 1986 to Jan 8, 2006 = 189

In my opinion - even as early as 2006 - no reasonable person could draw a conclusion that paragliding "is much safer than any other free flight sport, such as hang gliding..."
Last edited by Rick Masters on Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rick Masters: Superiority of Hang Gliders

Postby JoeF » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:06 pm

RM and self have been pushed out of editing at Wikipedia on soaring parachute safety matters.

After many years, here is the super poor section status where one aches how much opportunity is missed; see how deeply the article in its safety section misses the verifiable load of 1270+ fatalities that RM has on file:
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Re: Rick Masters: Superiority of Hang Gliders

Postby Rick Masters » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:53 pm

It is sad that even after all their efforts to bring people with dishonest promotional agendas under control, Wikipedia's Paragliding segment remains a tout for the paragliding industry. Posters from Paragliding Forum bragged about how they vandalized our additions by acting as "editors." Today, with nothing really changed, I can only assume that soaring parachutists revel in being lied to and delight in keeping their fellow sportsmen in the dark. This is another reason I refuse to call them pilots. Real pilots ALWAYS want to know what is going on - it is as if their survival depends on it.

From Wikipedia paragliding archives:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Parag ... e_1#Safety

Safety

ADDED: BHGA observation of effectiveness of SIV training.
ADDED: Fatality List with references for 2009 and 2010 through April.
Nopara (talk) 22:23, 29 April 2010

Reverted to a much earlier version of the intro to this section prior to Nopara malicious changes.
Jontyla (talk) 15:20, 2 August 2011

I've fully protected the article for a week to stop the edit warring. Both versions look flawed to me--IP is removing sourced information, but the previous version contains numbers in brackets and no corresponding reference, improper direct links to outside webpages, etc. You all need to stop fighting and discuss the issue here. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:47, 3 October 2011

Only one side of paragliding is allowed to be presented here. Honest discussion and proper citations are vandalized. It is not sufficient to tell people to stop fighting. The history is very clear that opinion is being enforced to the detriment of impartial observation. It does not reflect well on Wikipedia that it has tolerated for years the minimization of dangers and removal of citations verifying the fact that paragliding has significant risk. It is, in fact, dishonest to present a heavily-weighted fun side while removing information that there are serious problems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nopara (talk • contribs) 14:10, 3 October 2011

Please unprotect the Paragliding article. You or someone just obliterated some 20 hours of work with references. Thank you. And by the choice to overwrite my work instead of freezing at that point seems to show a choice that does not fit Wikipedia guides. Jontly (?) did not come to discuss; he did damages without signing, I suspect that was he. The article is severely with a narrow point of view. Much work is urged to do justice to "paragliding" way beyond the interests of just a few current sellers of sport paragliding wings. Paragliding is a large topic; readers deserve neutral point of view, not just a sales push of sport paragliding. ... Joefaust (talk) 22:27, 3 October 2011

All references and citations of medical journals reporting an excessive number of paragliding spinal injuries were deleted from this version. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =452207100 All references and citations to reports of paragliding fatalities (example 2009) were deleted from this version. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =359107379 This has been going on for years. I find it reprehensible that people come to Wikipedia to investigate paragliding but are unknowingly denied an objective look at both sides of the issue. Some who decide to pursue the sport based on what is allowed to be presented by the sport enthusiasts who censor content may make that decision without critical information. This could result in their being maimed or killed. It is an ethical obligation to fairly present both sides. You talk about the ideal that Wikipedia articles should evolve with new information or improved style. Consider that no tally of global paragliding fatalities was assembled prior to Rick Masters' effort beginning in 2008. Only a few national organizations were reporting some of their members' incidents and leaving outside visitors who were injured or killed to be added to their own country's accident gathering apparatus - if one existed. The result was an under-reported mess that paragliding enthusiasts seized upon to offer the opinion, blatantly promoted on Wikipedia, that paragliding is much safer than it really is. What in the world could possibly be wrong with pointing readers to a referenced list of over 800 paragliding deaths and hundreds of crippling injuries in less than a decade? Wikipedia editors have for years called out for more referenced material. Well, here is some and it's ugly. But that doesn't mean anyone has a right to keep it from being used. It's not research. It's not statistics. It's a list. A simple ugly list that sport paragliding enthusiasts do not want to see or see referenced in Wikipedia. I hope the mature editors who understand a neutral POV will recognize the significance and ethical consequences of this issue. Nopara (talk) 15:47, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

One of the main problems and differences of opinion lies in the validity of the citations and references being used for the suggested changes and this is a significant sticking point here. "nopara" is right when he says paragliding is dangerous, paraglider pilots acknowledge this and the wikipedia entry for paragliding should reflect this. I know, I am a paraglider pilot and the cost of my life insurance reflects this. I for one, along with most of the paragliding community, do not recognise the "cometclones" website and its list of links to news articles as a valid citation for data or for providing annual accident/incident statistics. Now being pragmatic, I'm sure we would all agree 100% accurate data is impossible to gather because some accidents go unreported and eye witnesses cannot always be reliable. The National Associations worldwide do collect and publish accident data, usually collected direct from the pilots, unlike the "cometclones" website which seems to collect news reports from the mainstream media who are not well versed with respect to paragliding. To try to find and example for non-pilots to grasp; who would you rather believe when looking for aviation statistics, the Civil Aviation Authorities or a website with links to news stories? I know where I stand on this issue, and I know I'm in the majority here. It's why the consensus of opinion on this page is forming to show that there are only two users here with this minority opinion, I, and another user commenting here, have managed to have posts removed from the largest international paragliding forum as they refer to this debate. We felt it would be detrimental to this debate if hundreds of pilots came to this talk page and backed our stance that the "cometclones" website should not be referred to as containing data, even though it would confirm a consensus of opinion. The WP definition of "citation" refers to "reliable sources", and to help non-pilots understand my viewpoint, I would ask them to consider the foloowing example; who would one believe when looking for aviation statistics, the Civil Aviation Authorities or a website with links to news stories? 88xxxx (talk) 10:34, 10 October 2011
etc., etc.

See for yourself.
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Paragliding's favorite website in 2011
The CometClones Web Site - Mythology of the Airframe
https://web.archive.org/web/20120326143 ... gy2011.htm
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Re: Rick Masters: Superiority of Hang Gliders

Postby Rick Masters » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:54 pm

I just heard that two Californians, aged 36 and 33, just crashed in Italy on a tandem paragliding flight.
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Re: Rick Masters: Superiority of Hang Gliders

Postby wingspan33 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:43 pm

Fatal, or unknown as yet?
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Re: Rick Masters: Superiority of Hang Gliders

Postby Rick Masters » Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:47 am

Former PG nutcase foresees growing problem in Owens Valley corridor
http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=69045

Pilots please read: A dangerous pattern keeps emerging from our flying community out here in the Sierra. We are having more and more new pilots coming to the scene, and someone is going to get hurt/killed from (their own) negligence. It's a rough thing to point out, but I hope through awareness of the subject, we will be become better safer pilots and avoid these probable injuries. Here is what I'm talking about...

Too many new/under experienced pilots are flying in our area without the basic understanding of flight mechanics, kiting experience, or proper instruction. I can give insight into what this means, as I too taught myself to fly back in 2010(mistake), and now understand what this means.

We have too many new, young pilots borrowing hybrid speed wings and paragliders, and taking high flights with them without a basic understanding of flight. Yeah, it might seem easy to take the FireFly for a spin, but it will come back to bite you as soon as you fly in bad conditons, encounter a deflation, or make a bad landing. I have seen too many 'pilots' around here recently who have never either opened a P2 booklet or studied flight mechanics, already hucking themselves from peak tops. Too many people going out without a basic knowledge of weather and forecasting ability, and then they call me when they are on launch and can't figure out whats happening with the wind, or even how to check the wind. Or even pilots who fly only a few times per year, coming and making flights from the summits without having kited or practiced before hand.

I know from experience that this is going to lead to injury or death. I have already seen beginners get hurt out here from what I speak about. With my own eyes I have see multiple broken backs out here, and gruesome crashes every year. I hope to prevent more 'accidents' like these by asking for all pilots who fly out here to take it seriously, and become informed and safer pilots through education, training, and utilizing resources.

The Sierra is an extremely difficult location to fly safely, and anyone flying here needs to recognize this. You wouldnt throw your life savings into the stock market without proper research and a solid background in this industry I would think, so why are so many people willing to throw their life on the roulette table out here when it comes to flying? I pounded in twice in my first six months due to exactly what I speak about, so I don't think that I'm just blowing hot air. I speak from painful experience.

I think it would be great to see all of these new pilots out here take flying more seriously. As an USHPA instructor I am in fear of what I see going on out here, and do not want to be associated as a contributing factor to this new issue. I am asking for change. None of these pilots have reached out to me for info, advice, study material, instructional videos, or lessons (this is not a plug for lessons).


Fatal, or unknown as yet?


Serious injuries to the commander. Light injuries to his girlfriend. No details. I've grown so cynical that I think that's doing pretty good.
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