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Re: Wall of Shame in banning of Joe Faust from hanggliding.o

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:08 pm

Rick Masters wrote:You were there, Bob.
http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=40924

That's right. They were criticizing your posting of PG death totals. I asked a pretty simple question:

Post subject: RE: What is this site?
Author: Bob Kuczewski 
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:15 pm

keithpenny wrote:Got to admit, he's done a very good job of creating a list of worldwide accidents all in one place. The guy has a lot of spare time and has put it to good use.


I was surprised by the statistics posted on Rick's page. I hadn't realized there were that many deaths each year in paragliding. Here's what he shows (year deaths): 

2011 48 (to date) 
2010 95 
2009 113 
2008 122 
2007 88 
2006 90 
2005 66 
2004 89 
2003 69 
2002 59 

Just to be sure we're dealing with the facts, can anyone confirm or refute those statistics? 

Thanks in advance.


My post was answered with a number of diversions, but eventually, they had to admit that Rick's counts were probably correct.

Were you already banned at that point, Rick, or did it happen later?
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Re: Wall of Shame in banning of Joe Faust from hanggliding.o

Postby Rick Masters » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:41 am

Were you already banned at that point

Oh yeah. They had a hard time with this and kicked me out:
Image
So it was just Joe against an enraged horde of deluded clowns.

I was surprised by the statistics posted on Rick's page. I hadn't realized there were that many deaths each year in paragliding. Here's what he shows (year deaths)

There have been over 700 more people killed on paragliders since you made that post.
(See the topic "Dangerous Sports News" for the current total.)
My current verified tallies for those years are:
97   2011 48 (to date)
85   2010 95
111 2009 113
117 2008 122
74   2007 88
80   2006 90
62   2005 66
55   2004 89
74   2003 69
54   2002 59
These numbers remain incomplete and subject to further review.

Image
Paraglider Dead Man's Curve - Remain at least 366 feet above the ground at all times.
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Re: Wall of Shame in banning of Joe Faust from hanggliding.o

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:25 pm

Rick Masters wrote:I don't post there [HG.org]. I don't respect people who accept that level of censorship.

I generally agree, but I make exceptions for people who post there for a good cause. Red wants to post helpful hints to new pilots. That's a good cause. Frank wants to promote his new trainer. That's a good cause. Michael wants to promote Part 103. That's a good cause. Joe wants to promote USHGRS. That's a good cause.

The problem comes in when any of those people use their own good cause to justify remaining silent while someone else is silenced. They are each saying that their own cause is more important than Joe's cause. They're each saying that what they have to say is more important than what Joe has to say. That's what I find both selfish and disgusting.

But I'll go a step further. There is an aspect of human psychology that craves being in the 'in crowd". That aspect is tremendously powerful because it has historically been critical to our actual survival. That's where the craving is paired with the fear of being excluded. That very selfish craving/fear is manipulated by everyone from advertisers to Mark Forbes to Jack Axaopoulos. That's what we're really seeing, and it's been used to keep "the masses" silently watching the most horrific acts in human history.

You can tell that's what's going on when you ask any of those people to justify their silence in Joe's banning. What you get is either more silence or a bunch of gibberish eventually followed by more silence. That's because there is no justification and they know it.

And then comes the final insult. In order to find some way out of their embarrassment, those same people will manufacture - in their own minds - some justification for their inaction. That's the well known "blame the victim" self deception. I've already heard it from some in this case who've said to me that Joe was asking to get banned. That's the final insult because those people eventually turn against the person who was wronged in the first place. They will turn against them and shun them because they remind them of their own cowardice.

I'm saying this because I believe we have some of the best people in the sport of hang gliding on this forum. If there is any hope of finding people who can resist this manipulation I believe it is here among the U.S. Hawks. I wouldn't bother giving this speech to "Ben Reese" or "Doug Marley" because they're not capable of taking the hard objective look at themselves that's needed. But I believe each of you are. I'm asking each of you to do that for yourselves. Ask yourself for your own justification for your silence in Joe's ban. Then call yourself on your own excuses. If you do this sincerely, you'll know what to do.
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Re: Wall of Shame in banning of Joe Faust from hanggliding.o

Postby Rick Masters » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:11 pm

If there is any hope of finding people who can resist this manipulation I believe it is here among the U.S. Hawks.

Yeah. I just pointed out how to do it.
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Re: Wall of Shame in banning of Joe Faust from hanggliding.o

Postby magentabluesky » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:59 pm

I would like to hear from Joe on the subject.

He has only one post on this thread - the "Boom" post.

Many of us in the Hang Gliding Community support Joe and appreciate his contributions.

Your thoughts and feelings, Joe?
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Re: Wall of Shame in banning of Joe Faust from hanggliding.o

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:25 pm

magentabluesky wrote:I would like to hear from Joe on the subject.
:
Your thoughts and feelings, Joe?

Don't ask Joe to beg you for your support. Joe is a very kind and gentle person. Don't expect him to ask you to do what you already know you should do.

Besides, Joe already told you what he wanted with his own actions. Joe was posting about USHGRS on hanggliding.org because he wanted to be posting about USHGRS on hanggliding.org. Do you really need to ask him to tell you that?

Joe was carefully staying within Jack's ridiculous "No Bob and Scott and US Hawks" rule because Joe didn't want to be banned. Joe even avoided taking Jack's bait about discussing those topics because Joe didn't want to be banned. Are you blind not to see that?

Don't try to put Joe in a position to give YOU an excuse to not do what YOU know YOU should do.
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Re: Wall of Shame in banning of Joe Faust from hanggliding.o

Postby magentabluesky » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:42 pm

Bob, you are out of line.

Don’t tell me what I believe and don’t believe.

I am not asking Joe to beg for my support. I have already given Joe my support and will continue to give Joe my support. I have multiple posts on hanggliding dot org, oz report, Sylmar forum, and the US Hawks in support of Joe. I will continue to support Joe and highly respect Joe for his life time of contributions to Hang Gliding. Thank you, Joe.

As Frank has expressed in his post, I would like to help Joe in productive actions and not waste any time and effort just to make matters worse for Joe.

As far as Jack’s website, it is Jack’s website. That is Jack’s domain. He owns it. He is in control of the org. If he engages in censorship or bans people and that is offensive, stop patronizing the website. From my view since Joe has been banned, there has been very little discussion of substance on the org. As Rick has stated, the action that truly matters is on the US Hawks. Stay focused on what really matters.

Joe’s success is not dependent on the org. Joe has been successful long before the org was around and Joe will continue to be successful long after the org is a ghost website.

In a very neutral fashion I have asked Joe for his input out of respect for Joe’s thoughts and feelings.

Watch this video and ask how true music is made.

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Re: Wall of Shame in banning of Joe Faust from hanggliding.o

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:04 pm

magentabluesky wrote:I have already given Joe my support and will continue to give Joe my support.

Keep us posted so we don't miss out on any of your "support" ...

Let me help out anyone who might be tongue-tied:

Bob is right. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but he's right. I don't want to look back on my life and see myself sitting silently while one of the founding and transformative members of this sport is bullied. Here's what I just posted on hanggliding.org and PM'd to my friends on that site:

"I am posting to demand that Joe Faust be reinstated on this forum. I use "demand" because this forum has posted rules, and the posting of such rules clearly implies that they will be followed. That was the agreement that I entered into when I joined this forum. There was no rule stating that Joe couldn't post about USHGRS. There was no rule stating that Jack Axaopoulos (sg) could ban whoever he wanted for whatever reason he wanted. I wouldn't have joined this forum under those circumstances. I would't have spent my own time contributing my posts to a forum moderator who would ban Joe Faust for simply posting about a new rating system. I am not asking to be banned (so don't say that I am), but I am demanding that this injustice be reversed right now."

I am posting it here on the U.S. Hawks in case it's deleted by Jack Axaopoulos.

Nothing there is copyrighted. Feel free to use whatever you like.
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Re: Wall of Shame in banning of Joe Faust from hanggliding.o

Postby magentabluesky » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:50 pm

Bob,

If everyone on the aircraft carrier was just a pilot, do you think an aircraft would ever be launched off the deck of that aircraft carrier?

If there were only engineers in the world and no pilots, would an airplane ever fly?

In the “Ride of the Valkyries” if everyone was the conductor, would we hear any music?

What would happen if the conductor was offended by someone in the audience and stepped down to the offender’s level to correct the slight in the middle of the piece?

Do you think Daniel Barenboim, the conductor, is really concerned about losing audience to the TV show the “Voice”?

Listen to the members of the orchestra; they would like to make music.
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Re: Wall of Shame in banning of Joe Faust from hanggliding.o

Postby Free » Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:54 pm

I have no affection for liars (and thieves) and do not believe they should be the people that write history.
Following strategy of the dissenters here allows liars (and thieves) to write their lying version of history.

Its doubtful Jack Axaopoulos was ever going to give a fair shake to Joe.
The chances were slim to none as Jack had to lie to justify his actions in the first place. Liars like that usually keep piling on deceptions to cover their tracks. If people are too concerned for political correctness, or whatever, to call out the lies, then the lies will probably stand as the neo-historical record.

Its doubtful there was any hope of working behind the scenes to affect a different outcome.
Prove me wrong and I will argue to remove Jack from the wall of shame.
Otherwise, let the truth be told.
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