The USHPA Insurance Debacle...

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The USHPA Insurance Debacle...

Postby BigBird » Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:28 am

Well, the insurance debacle that the USHPA has gotten itself into continues. As the deadline nears to raise $2 million to 'save our sport' by becoming self-insured, the rhetoric is ramping up by some who aren't 'happy' with those of us who haven’t donated.

Apparently a whopping 80% of our organization has NOT donated to the cause. Some who have donated are threatening 'retaliation' in an effort to shame or penalize those who haven't. I have no doubt that at some point a list of 'non-contributors' will be leaked by the USHPA to those who want it - yes, they're that petty.

I can’t speak for the others in the 80% group but I know why our club and some, if not all of our members are NOT donating to the cause…

In our club’s experience with the leadership of the USHPA they’ve done little to nothing to assist us when we’ve needed and requested it. One of the situations was in Siskiyou County and the other was with a website promoting unsafe nonsense at Hat Creek Rim. On both occasions our concerns were pretty much ignored by The Powers That Be in our national organization. Both of these occasions may have played a small part in the demise of our access to liability insurance.

Now we’re asked to come to their aid and help them??? Why? Why would we even want to?

As Dr. Phil says: The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

IMHO, the USHPA uses reactive measures instead of proactive measures to manage our association and now to “save our sport”. I feel the USHPA will again mismanage the future of our sport and this will all be for nothing... Apparently there are a lot of USHPA members who may feel the same way.

Of course this just my opinion and I could be wrong…


Phil
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Re: The USHPA Insurance Debacle...

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:16 pm

BigBird wrote:Well, the insurance debacle that the USHPA has gotten itself into continues. As the deadline nears to raise $2 million to 'save our sport' by becoming self-insured, the rhetoric is ramping up by some who aren't 'happy' with those of us who haven’t donated.

Apparently a whopping 80% of our organization has NOT donated to the cause. Some who have donated are threatening 'retaliation' in an effort to shame or penalize those who haven't. I have no doubt that at some point a list of 'non-contributors' will be leaked by the USHPA to those who want it - yes, they're that petty.

I can’t speak for the others in the 80% group but I know why our club and some, if not all of our members are NOT donating to the cause…

In our club’s experience with the leadership of the USHPA they’ve done little to nothing to assist us when we’ve needed and requested it. One of the situations was in Siskiyou County and the other was with a website promoting unsafe nonsense at Hat Creek Rim. On both occasions our concerns were pretty much ignored by The Powers That Be in our national organization. Both of these occasions may have played a small part in the demise of our access to liability insurance.

Now we’re asked to come to their aid and help them??? Why? Why would we even want to?

As Dr. Phil says: The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

IMHO, the USHPA uses reactive measures instead of proactive measures to manage our association and now to “save our sport”. I feel the USHPA will again mismanage the future of our sport and this will all be for nothing... Apparently there are a lot of USHPA members who may feel the same way.

Of course this just my opinion and I could be wrong…


Phil


Phil, I agree with everything you've written here. Your opinion is shared by myself and anyone willing to look objectively at USHPA's track record.

When a debacle like this happens in any respectable organization, the people responsible at the top (such as the insurance chairman) would be given the choice to resign or be fired. This should be a time for USHPA to review and repent for their actions in bringing the sport to this state. It should be a time for them to admit their mistakes and publicly take a new direction. I personally believe that Mark Forbes is incapable of admitting his fault in this, and that's why we're seeing his desperate attempt to stoke donations - to save his face.

BigBird wrote:As Dr. Phil says: The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

USHPA's past behavior is the one thing that they're dodging. Mark Forbes knows that I sent him and the entire USHPA Executive Committee a letter foreshadowing the Hamby accident well over a year before it happened. No action was taken by Mark Forbes or any of USHPA's leadership (other than to try to silence me). Now they're asking the members to pay for their intentional mismanagement.

Just say "no".
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Re: The USHPA Insurance Debacle...

Postby BigBird » Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:01 pm

Mavi Gogun wrote:Phil Sargent relaying to his US Hawk flock-

bigbird wrote:
I can’t speak for the others in the 80% group but I know why our club and some, if not all of our members are NOT donating to the cause…".


Well I was wondering when someone would migrate all or part of my post to the hg.org. Thanks Mavi. What I especially find interesting is that it comes from someone who is clueless to USHPA's past and so unaware of the potential for its 2 million dollar failure.

Mavi says; "Phil Sergent relaying to his US Hawk flock" I HAVE A FLOCK - imagine that!!! I'm proud to be a member of the US Hawks. I'd bet my last dollar that there is a heck of a lot more integrity in this organization than over at the USHPA.

When 82% of an organization does NOT feel that throwing money at the USHPA is a good idea, there's a problem and trust might just be one of them.

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Re: The USHPA Insurance Debacle...

Postby BigBird » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:39 pm

bobk wrote:Phil, I agree with everything you've written here. Your opinion is shared by myself and anyone willing to look objectively at USHPA's track record.

When a debacle like this happens in any respectable organization, the people responsible at the top (such as the insurance chairman) would be given the choice to resign or be fired. This should be a time for USHPA to review and repent for their actions in bringing the sport to this state. It should be a time for them to admit their mistakes and publicly take a new direction. I personally believe that Mark Forbes is incapable of admitting his fault in this, and that's why we're seeing his desperate attempt to stoke donations - to save his face.

USHPA's past behavior is the one thing that they're dodging. Mark Forbes knows that I sent him and the entire USHPA Executive Committee a letter foreshadowing the Hamby accident well over a year before it happened. No action was taken by Mark Forbes or any of USHPA's leadership (other than to try to silence me). Now they're asking the members to pay for their intentional mismanagement.

Just say "no".


Bob, thanks for your post. You're spot on in your conclusions.

This whole "death spiral" idea was manufactured to keep the attention on the "crisis" and away from the cause. This is too bad since it was an opportunity for real change that is needed at the national level.

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Re: The USHPA Insurance Debacle...

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:35 pm

Jason (on hanggliding.org) wrote:as of last friday only about 18% of USHPA members had contributed

thats not unity


bigbird (on hanggliding.org) wrote:I guess it depends on how you look at it. 82% seems pretty unified.

Just my observation and I could be wrong...

H5-Phil
#7722


Mavi Gogun (on hanggliding.org) wrote:
bigbird wrote:I guess it depends on how you look at it. 82% seems pretty unified.

Just my observation and I could be wrong...


Phil Sargent relaying to his US Hawk flock-

bigbird wrote:I can’t speak for the others in the 80% group but I know why our club and some, if not all of our members are NOT donating to the cause…".


Strange that Phil has membership (#7722) in an Association so undeserving, as he has said, of support. His mission here seems to be nothing more than proselytizing discord- while equivocating about not helping.

'I've got REASONS- I was treated unjustly -there was this pissing match, and I got splashed'.

Doubtlessly there have been failures, but I really can't afford your grudge match and grievances- no matter how righteous -to sabotage our efforts. Sampling the poisonous bile erupting from your ilk, there is little doubt that tact is in no small part responsible for the fissure that has developed. Get over it. There are some despicable people in the world- but that is no excuse for joining their ranks.

If any see gross mismanagement, it's incumbent on each of us to confront it- not use those failings as a bitter lever to break our Association.
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BigBird wrote:Mavi says; "Phil Sergent relaying to his US Hawk flock" I HAVE A FLOCK - imagine that!!!


You DO have a flock Phil, and I'm proud to be in it!!!    :salute:

Really, the US Hawks is about all of us flocking together - being in each other's flock - to promote our shared love of hang gliding. That's what's been lost at too many other organizations (and web sites) in this sport.

BigBird wrote:I'm proud to be a member of the US Hawks. I'd bet my last dollar that there is a heck of a lot more integrity in this organization than over at the USHPA.

When 82% of an organization does NOT feel that throwing money at the USHPA is a good idea, there's a problem and trust might just be one of them.

Phil


:clap: :thumbup: :wave: :D :clap: :wave: :thumbup: ;) :salute: :thumbup: :wave: :clap: :clap: :wave: :clap: :clap: :wave: :clap: :thumbup: :wave: :D :clap: :wave: :thumbup: ;) :salute: :clap: :clap: :wave:
:thumbup: :wave: :clap: :clap: :wave: :clap: :thumbup: :wave: :D :clap: :wave: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: ;) :salute: :thumbup: :wave: :clap: :clap: :wave: :clap: :thumbup: :wave: :D :clap: :salute: :D :clap:
  :wave: :salute: ;) :wave: :thumbup: :wave: :clap: :clap: :wave: :clap: :thumbup: :clap: :clap: :wave: :wave: :D :clap: :wave: :thumbup: ;) :thumbup: :wave: :clap: :clap: :wave: :clap: :clap: :wave:
:clap: :thumbup: :wave: :D :clap: :wave: :thumbup: ;) :clap: :thumbup: :wave: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :wave: :clap: :thumbup: :wave: :D :clap: :wave: :thumbup: ;) :salute: :thumbup: :wave: :thumbup:

Phil, I'm proud to be in YOUR flock!!!
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Re: The USHPA Insurance Debacle...

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:46 pm

Mavi Gogun (on hanggliding.org) wrote:Doubtlessly there have been failures, but I really can't afford your grudge match and grievances- no matter how righteous -to sabotage our efforts.

Translation: USHPA won't fix what's broken, and Mavi (Christopher LeFay?) wants everyone to just ignore that minor problem ... and send them more money.

Mavi Gogun (on hanggliding.org) wrote:Sampling the poisonous bile erupting from your ilk, there is little doubt that tact is in no small part responsible for the fissure that has developed.

Translation: Mavi wants to blame USHPA's current problems ("fissure") on the people who've been trying to fix the problems for at least a decade.

Mavi Gogun (on hanggliding.org) wrote:There are some despicable people in the world- but that is no excuse for joining their ranks.

Translation: If faulty logic doesn't work, try some name calling and denigration.

:srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl:

But this one tops them all:

Mavi Gogun (on hanggliding.org) wrote:If any see gross mismanagement, it's incumbent on each of us to confront it- not use those failings as a bitter lever to break our Association.


That's exactly what I was doing as Regional Director when I reported actual incidents at Torrey Pines directly to Mark Forbes and his cronies. I confronted it, and the response was a kangaroo court to "expel" me (and ground me) for daring to speak up. Does "Mavi" really expect anyone else to "confront" those "failings" and risk the same treatment? In fact, the publicity that USHPA used in smearing me was intended to send just the opposite message. The message is "Don't confront issues or you'll get what Bob got.".

The fact is that the "Association" is already broken ... and 82% of the members know it.
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Re: The USHPA Insurance Debacle...

Postby wingspan33 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:13 pm

I'm not a member of the Shasta Sky Sailors but I can identify with Big Bird's comments and concerns.

I started flying in 1975 at the age of 19. There was no USHPA at the time, just the California Hang Glider (Pilots) Association. I got my liability insurance (which I was told I needed) from GSI (Glider Sport International). GSI folded a couple years later around the same time the USHGA was founded. As I recall, I joined the USHGA in 1977 or 78.

Around 1990 I qualified for the USHGA's Master rating. Probably the hardest rating to qualify for and receive.

Fast forward about twenty years. In 2012 the USHGA (now the U$hPa) effectively refused to enforce its Chapter SOPs in connection with two local chapters who were in violation of those SOPs (as well as certain criminal statues on the books in my state). As a result of my local Regional Director failing to do his duty and enforce U$hPa's SOPs, I quit paying my U$hPa dues and left the "Association".

As I see it, by failing to act to stop actual criminal behavior within one local chapter, the U$hPa was, for all intense and purposes, endorsing such behavior.

Since then, the U$hPa has also committed (just shy of a year ago) Felony violations of the US Anti-Trust Act.

They also promote tandem operations in which minors are subjected to flying environments where unreasonable harm and even death are possible/likely (read the membership waiver). Example - Jean Lake Nevada. Promoting that children be possibly subject to such conditions (and having U$hPa Certified Instructors and/or HG/PG Schools acting to convince parents and/or guardians that such risks are actually untrue) is also criminal in most, if not every, state in the union.

Based on the above (which could actually be proven in a court of law) the U$hPa is a Criminal Enterprise. And, in fact, can be described as an entity involved in Organized Crime - for profit. (Yes, a not for profit corporation may actually make a profit!)

If the members of the U$hPa knew that their membership dollars funded the activities of a "free fight" version of the Mafia, I doubt that ANYONE would be "donating" money to their proposed RRG.

They need to recognize that aiding and abetting (i.e. paying $ to the U$hPa) is also a crime [see - https://www.google.com/search?q=aiding+ ... 8&oe=utf-8 ]
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Re: The USHPA Insurance Debacle...

Postby BigBird » Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:28 am

Wingspan 33, Bob, US Hawks - :D :D :D :D :D :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Thanks for giving those of us who appreciate it a place to come and REFRESH.
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Re: The USHPA Insurance Debacle...

Postby Bill Cummings » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:36 am

Looks like only the choir has arrived and nobody needs to crack the binding on a hymnal.
Everyone knows all the words by heart.
I’d be sounding like a talking parrot. :angel: :salute:
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Re: The USHPA Insurance Debacle...

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:10 pm

OWNERS not DONORS Campaign

Mark Forbes has been doing a lot of tap dancing on hanggliding.org, but he's basically admitted that other organizations (including local clubs and even the US Hawks) might be able to buy into the RRG as OWNERS rather than DONORS. So I've kicked off the "OWNERS not DONORS Campaign" to try to spread the word to local clubs about participating in the RRG as owners of that organization. If this becomes widespread, then the RRG could eventually become a neutral insurance-only provider available to all members of our sport through the organization of their choice (US Hawks, Shasta Sky Sailors, RGSA, SW Texas Hang Gliders, etc). This would introduce a level of competition into our sport that's been sorely needed for decades.

If you can, please spread the word to as many clubs as possible for them to consider participating as OWNERS and not DONORS. I've also opened a topic in the main forum called "OWNERS not DONORS Campaign" for further discussions on that project.

We still have a month and a half until USHPA's insurance runs out, so there's time - especially for existing clubs - to participate as OWNERS and not DONORS.

Thanks!!!!
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