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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby Frank Colver » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:59 pm

Actually when I posted the original thread I didn't think there was much anyone could respond with because we don't have that level of input feel yet. I thought perhaps a little dreaming and imagining would happen (I'm sounding more like JoeF every day ;) I'm thinking that with all of the Bluetooth devices we have now, at least the pilot wouldn't have to have any wires connected to sensors on the glider. All sensory input to the pilot could be wireless.

A big thing to ponder is just what physical feelings could represent what's happening to the airframe? I wonder what a soaring bird feels when changes take place on its wings? We could possibly use sensations in individual fingers and toes to represent what's happening to our glider. Probably, the middle finger would be used when another glider passed too close. :roll:

So yes, glider design issues do need to be written about as a forum subject. I'm discussing seated flying control bar design stuff with WW right now so, maybe that's a topic for a forum also (that design problem was left in the dust long ago).

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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:42 pm

fcolver wrote:A big thing to ponder is just what physical feelings could represent what's happening to the airframe? I wonder what a soaring bird feels when changes take place on its wings? We could possibly use sensations in individual fingers and toes to represent what's happening to our glider.


See "Sensory Substitution" at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_substitution:

When a person becomes blind or deaf they generally do not lose the ability to hear or see, they simply lose their ability to transmit the sensory signals from the periphery (retina for visions and cochlea for hearing) to brain. Since the vision processing pathways are still intact, a person who has lost the ability to retrieve data from the retina can still see subjective images by using data gathered from other sensory modalities such as touch or audition.

In a regular visual system, the data collected by the retina is converted into an electrical stimulus in the optic nerve and relayed to the brain, which re-creates the image and perceives it. Because it is the brain that is responsible for the final perception, sensory substitution is possible. During sensory substitution an intact sensory modality relays information to the visual perception areas of the brain so that the person can perceive to see. With sensory substitution, information gained from one sensory modality can reach brain structures physiologically related to other sensory modalities. Touch-to-visual sensory substitution transfers information from touch receptors to the visual cortex for interpretation and perception. For example, through fMRI, we can determine which parts of the brain are activated during sensory perception. In blind persons, we can see that while they are only receiving tactile information, their visual cortex is also activated as they perceive to see objects. We can also have touch to touch sensory substitution where information from touch receptors of one region can be used to perceive touch in another region. For example, in one experiment by Bach-y-Rita, he was able to restore the touch perception in a patient who lost peripheral sensation from leprosy.


A friend of mine used to say that the human brain was essentially an extremely powerful correlator. It could learn the association between somewhat arbitrary inputs and outputs. Think about driving a car. We learn to turn a wheel to control our direction and to depress a pedal to control our speed. Neither of those relationships are found in nature, and yet we learn that arbitrary association to a fine degree. I suspect that with the right sensors and actuators, the human brain could fly circles around a bird's brain.
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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby Frank Colver » Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:26 pm

I suspect that with the right sensors and actuators, the human brain could fly circles around a bird's brain.


Very interesting thought. I'll bet you are right on the mark with that!

:idea: An interesting beginning would be to have sensitive temperature sensors at the wing tips. When the differential between them crosses a certain threshold a tiny receiver and low mass heater worn on the back of each hand would heat on the hand toward the warmer wing tip area. There could be several ranges of heat applied as the differential increased. The pilot, sensing the warmer air on that tip could decide to start a turn in that direction, thus getting a head start on entering a thermal before the mass of the HG starts rising or as often happens starts banking away from the rising air and has to be counteracted by pilot input.

Crazy..........huh? :eh:

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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:12 am

fcolver wrote:When the differential between them crosses a certain threshold a tiny receiver and low mass heater worn on the back of each hand would heat on the hand toward the warmer wing tip area.

Heating might be too slow. A good electric shock would produce a much more responsive pilot!!    :lol:
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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby Frank Colver » Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:44 pm

Did you see my post about activating the middle finger when another flyer passes too close? :x

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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:47 pm

fcolver wrote:Did you see my post about activating the middle finger when another flyer passes too close? :x


Yes. I officially had no comment.      ;)
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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby KaiMartin » Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:50 pm

fcolver wrote:Actually when I posted the original thread I didn't think there was much anyone could respond with because we don't have that level of input feel yet.

At my day work we had a little project to improve the stroke technique of oarsmen. Orientation sensitive gyros were mounted on the oars. And vibration motors was attached to the forearm of the rower. A laptop would constantly monitor the way the oar moves and start vibrating if movement deviated too much from the ideal.
Preliminary results looked promising. A study is under way to see whether this kind of muscle learning has lasting effect and how it compares to the traditional approach.

---<)kaimartin(>---
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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby JoeF » Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:05 pm

Meditate over what it takes to play great music on the piano. Examine the beginning piano student on Day One. The Day 45. Then Year 2. Examine the master pianist. Similarly about typing the language. Or my first high jump to my peak jump. Our systems are capable of some extraordinary coordinations. Get sensors from the flying system tied just right to our vital systems and watch growth; advancing simulators, as Kai noted, could play a huge part. Hang gliding in year 2300 will have some options that would amaze our current minds, I bet.
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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby JoeF » Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:15 pm

Found this at Roy Haggard's site:

http://tinyurl.com/HumanBikeSkills
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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby ARP » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:08 am

"I suspect that with the right sensors and actuators, the human brain could fly circles around a bird's brain."

They have tested apes against humans in recognising images flashed up on a VDU and despite humans supposed brain superiority the apes far exceeded human response times and accuracy. As a birds brain is specifically set up for the job and has senses way beyond ours it will be unlikely the above comment will become a reality, but it does not mean we cannot try.

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