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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby KaiMartin » Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:03 am

ARP wrote:They have tested apes against humans in recognising images flashed up on a VDU and despite humans supposed brain superiority the apes far exceeded human response times and accuracy. As a birds brain is specifically set up for the job and has senses way beyond ours it will be unlikely the above comment will become a reality, but it does not mean we cannot try.

I also suspect that birds exceed our reaction speed by quite a margin. I got lucky in the desert park of Phoenix, Az. and witnessed a humming bird in the bush right before my eyes. Still, I could hardly follow him (her) with my camera as he/she buzzed from flower to flower.

However, we are quite a bit larger than humming birds. Maximum allowed delay for regulation of unstable aircraft decreases linearly with size. The larger the dimensions, the slower the motions. The torque due to the force of the air grows linearly with the chord of a wing. But the moment of inertia scales with length squared. This means rotational motions slow down the larger the subject. If this argument is valid, we might get away with reaction times twenty times longer than a humming bird :-)

---<)kaimartin(>---
Last edited by KaiMartin on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby KaiMartin » Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:21 am

One thought close to the original topic of this tread:
When in flight under my flex wing I always feel mechanically connected and disconnected at the same time. After all, I dangle from a single point. Only up-down is directly transmitted by the hang strap. The other degrees of freedom are only loosely communicated via my hands on the bar. Much of the tiny rotations and motions which the wing certainly does when it reacts to the air get lost. I wonder, if a more directly connected position would feel significantly different.

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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby JoeF » Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:33 am

Forty minutes or so:
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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby reluctantsparrow » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:16 am

Hmmm,
I have seen no evidence that suggest a bird can feel things we can not feel. it makes sense, sure, because i can feel the warmth and texture of a fresh pile of poop via my fingers, which are a part of me, more than I could sense by simply poking the poop with a stick, which is not a part of me......so yes, it makes perfect sense that Birds are way up on Humans in this regard
The birdlike abilities I would would like to see reproduced however are not the sensations of temperature difference or pressure variations or to achieve the reaction times of a creature like a hummingbird is beyond my ability to even imagine such a thing so I am not going to waste any time thinking about that particular desire.

I want to SEE like a bird, not feel.
it is proven the eyesight of a bird is far beyond our own but us clever humans have the ability to create optical enhancement devices.....some call the Glasses.
I want a pair of Glasses that allow me to SEE like a hawk.
my theoretical reasoning for this is a hypothesis that a soaring bird may be finding thermals more by means of superior eyesight than by feel. Perhaps it can SEE the fine dust particles in a thermal both up close and from far away?
I have seen hay and tumbleweeds from the ground below going straight up at a 1,000 feet per minute that guided me to an obvious thermal. perhaps soaring birds use a superior eyesight as their primary thermal detection sense?
Perhaps they can not only see tumbleweed but ultra fine dust particles just as easily?
yep, I want a pair of glasses I can simply put on and see ultra fine dust particles or a pair of Glasses that I can put on and see temperature variations in the atmosphere, that would work too.
A technique i used a lot to find thermals in a comp is to pull back my eyes and remove my focus from the far off Horizon or the ground below which is where our vision usually takes us.
What happens when we look at the horizon or the ground is we are looking right past miles and miles of air that is totally full of stuff we never see because air is difficult to focus on and our eyes zip right past the miles and miles of air to focus on the far off horizon or the clouds above us, or we scour the ground below us looking for dust devils......but unles a pilot consciously commands his self to pull back his eyes from those objects a pilot looks through the air and right past a huge amount of visual clues indicating lifting air.
so I became a better pilot by learning to not look through the air. To pull back my area of focus.
I would actually imagine an area of air about two miles ahead of myself and pull back my eyes to only see that area.
Then I would pull back my eyes to see only the area of sky, say, a mile out in front of myself. and yes, I would start to see things I had looked right past when my eyes were focused on the air two miles out.....
then I woud tell my mind to focus only on air a quarter mile out and.....OMG! There is a hawk going up like gangbusters that I looked right past three times until I pulled my eyes back far enough......
so I want a pair glasses with settings that actually focus on the air two miles out.....another setting for one mile out.....another setting for only a hundred yards out.....you get the idea....
when the glasses are set to those particular settings the horizon may appear blurry and thats fine.....Im at 10,000 feet and I dont care about the horizon. I only care about my next reachable thermal. I only want to see the air within a ten mile radius.....RS
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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby reluctantsparrow » Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:11 am

Is such an optical lense within range of our current technical abilities? probably.
I shared Franks sensory enhancement desires With my girlfriend (who is extremely sharp BTW) and she sees that as an easily attained achievement via the nano-technology we currently possess. I agree.
Sensory implants that receive the same signals a bird might receive via the vanes of a feather imbedded in it skin.
WE can easily duplicate such sensory devices via nano-technology. Implants that pick up on those variations and send their signals directly to that part of our brain that is in need of such input.
Such info would be valuable to left brained pilots mostly (which i am not, I am mostly a right brained, intuitive pilot)
But evey emotion we are capable of is triggered by a certain vibrational frequency. this has been proven.
We can actually take the vibrational frequency of anger, lets say, and transmit that frequency to a group of people minding their own business and they will instantly begin to feel anger for no reason whatsoever.
So for us right brained , intuitive pilots the nano implants that are receiving the same temperature, air pressure, and tactile variations a bird might receive would send a vibrational frequency to our minds that would allow us to FEEL What a bird is Feeling without going through the rational, left brain process.
Speaking of rational......a ration is a portion by definition...only a portion...not the whole picture.....
A purely rational brain that only operates within the left hemisphere is only utilizing a portion of their brain.
the great pride a purely rational person usually takes in being purely rational does not make any sense to my way of thinking.
A person who only uses the left side of their brain is seldom in their right mind.
That sounded like it could be meant as a joke but It was only meant as an observation.
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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby Rick Masters » Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:30 am

Image
Photo copyright 1997 Rick Masters
Here are your "glasses." These scientists are developing a turbulence-at-extreme-distance device to be used by the Space Shuttle during re-entry. The man on the right helped build the Hubble Space Telescope. The optical sensors require liquid nitrogen.
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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby ARP » Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:05 am

There are systems that can analyse video images to detect a fire before visible smoke appears. The heat causes a distortion to the image that can be "seen" by the system . If this could be miniaturised and the video image put on a HUD to show temperature distortion changes in the surrounding area it might provide a way to view thermals.
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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby Bill Cummings » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:35 am

reluctantsparrow,
Elsewhere on the US Hawks I posted a thread that went something like this: [I can't catch that left handed pilot!"]
No one wanted to respond to that aspect due probably to fear of Political Correctness is my best guess.
As PC would like us to believe we are all equal. So no need to explore in that direction. (If we do - just keep it to ourselves.)

As to optical enhancement I also have a post elsewhere on the US Hawks over at the SW Texas Club on the subject of detecting thermals. My response was to doing it with eye (Sun) glasses.
At the OZ Report I was trying years ago to encourage the tech, Uber Geeks to come up with voice command instruments. I was fed a line that the voice recognition was all done, "In the Cloud." I knew better but just gave up.
With your idea of optical enhancement, to that I would like to add voice recognition, As in. "Focal Point, one mile." The optical enhancement would do that for me and the speaker in the bow of my glasses over both ears would respond with, "Focal Point now one mile."
On a different note but on the same flight:
When the Mexican taxi dispatch broke in on my radio I would say. "Radio squelch up 5." The Radio squelch would move up to #5 on the squelch and say, "Radio squelch at 5." (Marketing for the blind should be high.)
I would say, "Radio frequency 151.925." The radio would go there and announce, "Radio frequency now at 151.925."
I could say, "Vario average 12 seconds." The vario would say, Averaging 12 seconds."
I could say, Vario volume up two." and so on.
For feet per min up a women's voice might say, "400."
For feet per min down a man's voice might say, "400."
I could say GPS ----whatever---

While winter towing and dressed with full head covering, googles, gloves, and snowmobile suit I developed a feel for the wind through my clothing. One can easily imagine that a flapping jacket sleeve will impart some knowledge as to airspeed but flying slower with no flapping one can, after a while and if their paying attention, be aware of the pressure the air imparts to your clothing where it touches your body. After a while it is automatic.
My pilot friend could detect the thermals temperature increase on his face. He could do it without thinking about it. I could only do it when concentration to the exclusion of everything else so it never came automatically to me so I gave up on it.
General Aviation teaches pilots how to scan the sky for air traffic but I have never read where it was suggested for distance. But you are on the right track. (They should.)

I have only focused for distance while standing on launch, shading my eye from direct sunlight with my hand and looking for pollen, and spider threads moving between me and the sun. I do this for wind direction indication at different distances.
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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby reluctantsparrow » Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:03 am

Excellent!
Now that what is needed has been imagined all that is required is for that uber geek you speak of Bill, who possesses all the skills and understanding to transform that idea into reality to read the idea. That is how the universe works...the idea works very much like a seed. It just needs to fall into the proper soil to grow into something real.
The writer Jules Verne wrote 20.000 leagues under the sea in 1870.
Then, an inventor type more mechanically inclined may have read Jules Vernes novel and said......hey, that might just be possible....and it turns out is was possible.
The quickest way to turn thermal detecting, voice command eyeglasses that restrict their focus to a certain airspace is to make a movie or write a science fiction novel or short story with that idea in the story.
If the person with the right mind reads that idea, possesses the right skill sets, and decides to work on it I have no doubt such a pair of eye-glasses would become real.
Laser beams, space shuttles, and hundreds of other realities once thought impossible began in this manner.
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Re: Bird like flight? Not even close - yet.

Postby Rick Masters » Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:31 pm

Explorations with the Thermal Snooper
by Rick Masters, 1987
(takes a while to load)
https://web.archive.org/web/20120101172100/http://www.cometclones.com/illusion.htm

What could be done is to equip several hang gliders headed to the same cross-country goal with a special version of the Thermal Snooper using today's technology.
Constant wireless broadcast of temperature (thermometer), rate of change of temperature (temperature variometer/Thermal Snooper), altitude (altimeter), rate of change of altitude (variometer), and GPS data could be combined in a software program to build a three-dimensional map of the sky traveled and shared on the display of each participant.

Imagine several XC groups sharing this data. You could even incorporate a thermal drift projection to enable pilots behind a leading group to catch up.

A couple of our members are fooling around with improved Thermal Snoopers, but no one has taken the challenge to this point.
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