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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty Renewing Torrey Hawks 2016 USHPA Chapter Stat
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:34 pm 
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Rick Masters wrote:
As I've been trying to explain all along, when an RRG fails, members are on the hook for losses and expenses.
Court cases and legal expenses can go on for years.
Without government guaranty funds - which are unavailable to RRGs - the members themselves can be financially ruined.
The worst type of RRG you could ever dream up would be a dangerous sports RRG with minimum funding.
It's a disaster..


Woah! Wait just a minute there Mr. Masters.....I am not educated enough to process what you just said. Are you saying that as a member of a high risk sport RRG such as ushpa i can be finacially ruined and held accountable?

I want to see the RRG statutes that lay this out in plain language.............Please!!!

I think you have been saying a lot of things Rick that few, including myself, has been paying close attention to........The sideways swing through technique is a good example. All that work to come up with a device when all we needed was a technique and a broadening of our skills.
Okay....you have my full attention....I have no legal expertise.....Am I really Liable, as an RRG participant, for legal expenses incurred by others?.....Please show me the fine print....I really need to see the fine print.....RS


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty Renewing Torrey Hawks 2016 USHPA Chapter Stat
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:01 pm 
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I don't think you are liable, as an individual member.

I do think the officers of any incorporated club could be held liable for continuing future expenses if the RRG fails, along with any other incorporated bodies such as the schools and, of course, the national association corporation.

This has been my main point all along in suggesting participation in the RRG was potentially not just a bad idea, but A VERY BAD IDEA, and I have on several occasions published links to support this assertion under US Hawk topics containing "RRG."
http://ushawks.org/forum/search.php?keywords=RRG&terms=all&author=Rick+Masters&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search&sid=30eeea2499c29338bbb5134225559166

This one, in particular
http://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2203&p=18125&hilit=RRG&sid=30eeea2499c29338bbb5134225559166&sid=30eeea2499c29338bbb5134225559166#p18125

This is the reason the officers of the USHPA have purchased insurance from re-insurers, using USHPA funds, to protect themselves against third-party lawsuits in the event the RRG runs out of money. Which begs the question, did they offer to protect any other members who could be held liable? They've discussed this with you guys, right?

In my opinion, the best thing to do is for hang glider pilots to bail out of the USHPA - leave it for the paragliding gamblers - and form an alternative national association that represents the interests of hang glider pilots only.


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty Renewing Torrey Hawks 2016 USHPA Chapter Stat
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:21 am 
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Thanks Rick, I have forwarded the links and comments you provided to local pilots who deal directly with local landowners of local sites here in Washington State....they need to know.
I flew Dog Mtn. again yesterday (another great Day!) and I couldnt get out of the LZ without answering, or trying to answer, pilots questions about what is going on....we should see a few more NW pilots joining up with the Hawks after all the talk in the LZ yesterday. Probably need to start our own NW chapter but I am too busy working on putting a device into production (for hang gliding) that led me to the ushawks in the first place (I found the hawks in the process of doing a patent search a few months ago).
According to my patent lawyer I still can not share my invention (that may or may not be a boon for our sport) until after a filing date with the USPTO is secured.....and that date is fast approaching....probably two weeks or less.
But what good is a such a device when our sites are at risk and our instructors can no longer afford to instruct?
So weird that i had to find the Hawks by doing a patent search.....until then I had no idea this group even existed. Looking forward to Keiths bumper stickers arriving....not looking forward to spending more time in the LZ talking than flying....I go by the name....reluctant...for a reason.....
I seem to be very gifted at making waves although I do not enjoy the results of those waves when they come slamming back to rock my own boat....but oh well...i can handle it.
My invention is going to make some waves....no doubt about it....even if it does not make our sport safer it is going to make waves just because it looks cool....very cool.
I am probably going to take out ads in cross country mag, the ushpa mag, etc.....wouldnt it be funny if I had a decal on the bottom of whatever glider I use to showcase my invention that says....USHAWKS.ORG on the bottom sail?
I am toying with that idea......a huge USHAWKS.ORG logo on the bottom surface of a glider showcasing a completely novel device that could possibly make hang gliding safer submitted to the uhspa mag for publication......Hmmmm?
A professional patent search I finally hired done on my idea came back as the invention is both novel and un-obvious....which means no literature, patents, drawings, or articles have been published anywhere in the world that indicate my idea has ever been done before....totally novel. The fact I am convinced it will make our sport safer remains to be seen.
I know Cross country magazine is going to publish the ad....my money is as good as the next advertisers.
This could get interesting......RS


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty Renewing Torrey Hawks 2016 USHPA Chapter Stat
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:04 pm 
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It is good to hear that some hang glider pilots are interested in developing alternatives. Each club should work on a strategy to transition to landowner sites that accept state liability exclusions, modify existing agreements, or switch to government owned sites that don't care, should USHPA-insured sites be lost. You may end up driving farther or flying less interesting or more demanding sites. Forming a committee to toss around ideas and get to work making information packets about their flying rights for each member to carry would be a good start.

In my opinion, the national association corporation is dancing on thin ice with the RRG. It would not surprise me much if the RRG suddenly failed and a notice was sent to all chapters informing them that the liability insurance they had purchased for their favorite sites through the USHPA was lost. All chapters should have a plan in place to deal with this so that members could continue flying. Hopefully, I'm wrong. Unfortunately, I'm right a lot.

We are fortunate to have special liability recreation laws on our side. Hang glider pilots now have to educate themselves and try to undo the damage of years of pushing USHPA 3PL when state recreation laws would have sufficed. It can be done. It's going to take some time. It's best to get started now - just in case.

Image
I wouldn't suggest chapters share much of what they do in this regard with the national association corporation. They won't like it and they can get pretty vindictive if you start messing with their strategy, which seems to revolve around money, paragliding and power instead of hang gliding. Keep it low key and just prepare. If you work with other clubs and outlaws, it will be easier. Get ready, that's all.

Image
The US Hawks can be very helpful here. Just come on board with an anonymous name and PM any of us with questions and links to resources.

Also, this whole training thing is really screwed up. The original birth and growth of modern hang gliding had nothing to do with the current model. If current pilots can't teach new pilots, the sport will come to an end as an organized pastime. How does USHPA stand on that? Oh, yeah? Time to start over, then. Unless you all want to become outlaws, which could be less work.

-- Form a national hang gliding organization that keeps on hang gliding --


Last edited by Rick Masters on Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty Renewing Torrey Hawks 2016 USHPA Chapter Stat
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:52 pm 
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reluctantsparrow wrote:
I flew Dog Mtn. again yesterday (another great Day!) and I couldnt get out of the LZ without answering, or trying to answer, pilots questions about what is going on....we should see a few more NW pilots joining up with the Hawks after all the talk in the LZ yesterday. Probably need to start our own NW chapter but I am too busy ...

Starting a US Hawks Chapter is very very easy ... as it should be. Just pick a name and let me know what it is. Then you can start recruiting members. While USHPA is putting hurtles in front of clubs (see previous posts in this topic), the US Hawks is actually trying to grow clubs. We're here to help clubs get started and help them grow. That's why we provide free forum space where clubs can have both their own integrity and still share a common forum to gain resources and support from other clubs. That's what USHPA should be doing ... but they are not.

Rick Masters wrote:
It is good to hear that some hang glider pilots are interested in developing alternatives. Each club should work on a strategy to transition to landowner sites that accept state liability exclusions, modify existing agreements, or switch to government owned sites that don't care ...

100% correct. That is the strategy to grow the sport of hang gliding. USHPA doesn't want to grow hang gliding. USHPA wants to grow USHPA.

Rick Masters wrote:
In my opinion, the national association corporation is dancing on thin ice with the RRG. It would not surprise me much if the RRG suddenly failed and a notice was sent to all chapters informing them that the liability insurance they had purchased for their favorite sites through the USHPA was lost. All chapters should have a plan in place to deal with this so that members could continue flying. Hopefully, I'm wrong. Unfortunately, I'm right a lot.

100% correct again!! Insurance companies are in the business of taking risks. They do it all day, and every day. They are the professionals at determining good risk from bad risk. They've figured out that USHPA's management is a bad risk, and they dropped them. There's no clearer evidence than that. USHPA can pass the hat for donations, and they can expel the people who speak out. But neither of those makes the ice any thicker.

Rick Masters wrote:
The US Hawks can be very helpful here. Just come on board with an anonymous name and PM any of us with questions and links to resources.

100% yet again. You're also welcome to call me any time directly at 858-204-7499. The US Hawks has grown steadily over the past 6 years, and it's time to ramp it up.

Rick Masters wrote:
Also, this whole training thing is really screwed up. The original birth and growth of modern hang gliding had nothing to do with the current model.

OK, you're now up to 400% correct, Rick.   ;)        :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute:

RS, if you'd like to start a US Hawks Chapter, please let me know. From what I've already seen of your efforts in "Safe Splat" and your patent, you're the kind of person who gets things done. We're here to help any way we can. Just send me a PM or give me a call at 858-204-7499 ... any time. I can usually get your forum up and working within 24 hours of getting the call.

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty Renewing Torrey Hawks 2016 USHPA Chapter Stat
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:33 am 
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Quote:
They've figured out that USHPA's management is a bad risk, and they dropped them.

If you take a look at what was promised and what actually transpired, you will find that the national association corporation began introducing paragliding claims into what has historically been only a hang gliding 3PL arena. That was a huge mistake. Not only that, but there was a defense mounted in a lawsuit about noise of ultralight towing operations. Worse, the claim of a paraglider pilot against another paraglider pilot in a midair was supported, and God knows what else. It should be abundantly obvious that this was not 3PL and when we start suing each other for flying accidents or pilot error or design defects, IT'S OVER. (This is all heresay because the national association corporation doesn't tell members specifically what is going on and doesn't invite input.)

Image
I can only assume that the national association corporation hang glider pilots are happy with this.

Worse, when these time-honored policies were cancelled, the national association corporation had the brilliant idea to combine some extreme sports under one umbrella and create an RRG to share the liability risk. As has been pointed out many times on the US Hawks forums, the insurance game survives on diversification of risk across wide areas of activities, not by concentration of risk into the most risky pastimes. What could go wrong? Again, I can only assume that the national association corporation hang glider pilots are happy with this because they sent tons of money to the national association corporation for the RRG as "a one-time payment." (Forgive my laughter.)

It looks to me like the new anything goes national association corporation management got fast and loose with what once had been a hard-won and reliable liability insurance system for hang gliding and wrecked it. They even went so far as to employ the time-honored propaganda technique of "unscrupulous persecution of scapegoats" when the consequences of their actions caught up with them.

-- Form a national hang gliding association that doesn't wreck everything --


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty Renewing Torrey Hawks 2016 USHPA Chapter Stat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:18 pm 
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BobK and ushawks,

I negotiated with Ken Andrews my regional director of USHPA 8/21/2016 and when I asked him the status of your insurance being reinstated he said you were not cooperating or being cooperative. I asked him for an example of your being uncooperative and he mentioned the chapter status issue. I got the impression from him that if you provide the detailed roster information that they ask for even though it seems you are being singled out for an unknown reason(Although I discussed with him the possibility of what this reason might be), then with that roster information you might receive your insurance reinstated. The worst that could happen is they will not reinstate your insurance or chapter, however that is exactly the type of outcome that would help me in my efforts using other venues to insure fairness as provided by a 3rd party.

Doug Martens
ushawks member, ushpa member 79759 member of ushpa since 2002


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty Renewing Torrey Hawks 2016 USHPA Chapter Stat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:58 pm 
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Hi Doug,

As club secretary, I have already given all of our raw membership data to our club president and left it up to him to decide what to do with it.

My concern is that USHPA seems to think they can ask clubs for anything they want (social security numbers of all members? bank statements of all members?) and if it's not forked over, then they won't renew the chapter.

There's a reason that rules are written down ... so budding dictators can't just do whatever they want whenever they want. They're also written down so we can all agree on what's reasonable.

This is just like my expulsion ... USHPA leadership does whatever they want without any rules giving them the authority from the members. USHPA leadership is out of control (of the members). In fact, I'm not even sure I would believe USHPA's elections any more since Mark Forbes controls that process as well.


dhmartens wrote:
Doug Martens
ushawks member, ushpa member 79759 member of ushpa since 2002


Doug, your US Hawks member number is as easy as one, two, three.    In fact, coincidentally, it is 123!!    :)
You've been a US Hawks member since July 11, 2013. Congratulations on 3 years with us.   :thumbup:

Member numbers can be found at: http://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21 for anyone who wants to verify this.

We are an open organization.    8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty Renewing Torrey Hawks 2016 USHPA Chapter Stat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:42 pm 
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I just posted this on the Sylmar site. I had been asking the new USHPA Region 3 Director Ken Andrews (a Sylmar pilot) to help us renew our Torrey Hawks USHPA Chapter status. Ken had assured me that he would do what he could to help. That was back in May. It's now October and our Chapter status has not been renewed despite the fact that we've sent in all the completed paperwork and complied with all of the rules. Here's my post from Sylmar:

Bob Kuczewski wrote:
As I read backwards from Ken's false assurance posted above, I found this history of correspondence (posted here in chronological order):

February 27th, 2016, Bob Kuczewski wrote:
From: Bob Kuczewski <bobkuczewski>
To: Ashley Miller <ashley>, USHPA: US Hang Gliding & Paragliding Assn. <info>
Cc: Brian <brian>
Subject: Re: Chapter 270 renewal
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 12:08:09 -0800

Hello Ashley and USHPA (cc Brian McMahon),

Thanks for sending the forms. I have attached the following documents which should complete our 2015 renewal for the Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club:

- Renewal_Form_2015.pdf
- RiskMgmt_front.pdf
- Flying_Sites.pdf
- Chp270Rpt.pdf
- Bylaws.pdf
- Roster.pdf
- MembApp2008.pdf

Since we do not have any insured sites, we have not included a late fee applicable to insured sites as we have discussed recently and in the past.

Please call both myself (858-204-7499) and our Club President Brian McMahon (phone number removed) immediately if we've missed any requirements for renewal.

Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski
Club Secretary - Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club


That was February of 2016. USHPA refused to renew us and told us that we'd have to wait until the spring because of the "insurance problems". I followed up to be clear:

February 25th, 2016, Bob Kuczewski wrote:
From: Bob Kuczewski
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 10:59 AM
To: Ashley Miller <ashley>
Cc: USHPA Information <info>; Brian <brian>
Subject: Re: Chapter 270 renewal

Hello Ashely (cc Brian McMahon),

Thanks for your time on the phone this morning.

I'm just writing to include our Chapter President Brian McMahon in the discussion and to confirm that the 2016 Chapter renewal deadline for the Torrey Hawks (and all other Chapters) is currently extended until some time in June due to the changes in insurance.

As I mentioned on the phone, the Torrey Hawks does not currently purchase insurance, and we would be happy to renew before then, but we are also willing to wait along with other chapters as well.

Please keep us (both Brian and myself) informed as to when we might be able to renew our Chapter status.

Thanks,
Bob Kuczewski
Club Secretary - Torrey Hawks, USHPA Chapter #270


Eventually, I began to wonder about it, and I wrote to Ken.

May 25th, 2016, Bob Kuczewski wrote:
From: Bob Kuczewski
To: Kenneth Andrews
Cc: Brian McMahon and others
Subject: Torrey Hawks Club Renewal Help Request
Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 10:40:03 -0700

Hello Ken (cc Torrey Hawks President Brian McMahon, and others),

The Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club has been a USHPA Chapter since the fall of 2007. We are USHPA Chapter #270. We have paid all of the fees to be a Chapter and we would like to continue to be a Chapter.

However, we have not yet received our Chapter renewal packet or any other renewal information this year. This is inconsistent with USHPA's process in the past, and I am concerned that USHPA may be trying to essentially remove our Chapter status by simply not giving us the access to renewal information.

Ken, can you let us know what we need to do to renew our Chapter status this year?

Thanks,
Bob Kuczewski
Club Secretary, Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club
858-204-7499


Ken wrote back:

May 25th, 2016 wrote:
From: Kenneth Andrews
To: Bob Kuczewski
Cc: Brian McMahon and others
Subject: Re: Torrey Hawks Club Renewal Help Request
Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 14:18:47 -0700

Bob,

So far as I know, the Torrey Hawks officers should have received the following chapter renewal information on April 21, and the USHPA Chapter Newsletter on April 15. These provide the information needed for chapter renewal. If you did not get these email messages, I presume you could contact the USHPA office (info@ushpa.aero) to get that corrected.

-Ken


But there was no chapter renewal information from USHPA, and we had contacted the USHPA office several times. Both Brian and myself double checked our email and verified that we had not gotten anything from USHPA about our renewal.

I wrote to Ken and Brian:

May 26th, 2016, Bob Kuczewski wrote:
On May 26, 2016, at 11:52 AM, Bob Kuczewski wrote:
Thanks Brian. I checked my deleted and junk items as well and didn't find anything.

Ken, it's quite possible that USHPA will try to avoid renewing our Chapter status out of spite. They got away with expelling me for no reason, and they may do the same with our club's renewal. If that ends up being the case, will you help us with our renewal?

Thanks,
Bob Kuczewski


That's when Ken replied with the message that I quoted in my previous post:

May 27th, 2016, Ken Andrews wrote:
From: Kenneth Andrews
To: Bob Kuczewski
Cc: Brian and others
Subject: Re: Chapter 270 renewal (Torrey Hawks)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 09:54:52 -0700

Bob and all,

I expect that the USHPA office will process your chapter renewal without problem. If you encounter any further difficulty, let me know, and I’ll do what I can to help.

-Ken


Ken wrote: "I'll do what I can to help".

Ken knows that this is being done to undermine our club's ability to propose an alternative to the ongoing the commercial dominance at Torrey. Yet Ken has done nothing to fix it.

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 Post subject: The USHPA Chapter YOUR nots
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:50 pm 
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The Torrey Hawks AREN'T the one's making Any of the Decisions.
So who are the Gliderport decision makers
a. The USHPA, Hang Gliding, Paragliding, Tandem/instructor representatives
b. The Leaseholder (Private Party 1% )
c. The City Real Estate Assets Department
d. The City Mayor's Office & staff
e. The"illuminati" Mafia Leaders ~ Lol ~ Tell them the "Eagle" said Hi

To Me the reasons look obvious,...
They're not willing to let anybody in the Club who wants Oversight & Fairness

~ Gotta ask yourself Who's in the 1% Gang ~
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YOUR not.jpg
YOUR not.jpg [ 34.84 KiB | Viewed 1291 times ]


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