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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby Bill Cummings » Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:02 am

Bob Kuczewski wrote:
Bill Cummings wrote:I like Scott's idea of a card that would reference a url at the US Hawks website.

Me too.

Bill Cummings wrote:Bob would it be too hard to have a locked page for each pilot with their ratings and sign offs?

Not too hard at all. We could probably make it very similar to what some of the other organizations do ... a URL that ends with your member number.

Bill Cummings wrote:Their card would have the url page address so that going to the page might show even a pilot photo.
The card could have the ratings too but the url page would verify.
I would like my locked page to also include my youtube channel so that others could go check out my video flying record as well.

We could probably add a number of features like that. Great ideas!!!!!

Bill Cummings wrote:A QR might be a good touch also.

We might be able to do all of that. Here's a test. Can anyone read this?

test.png

(Not visible in the quote above is the, "test.png," QR pattern shown in Bob's original post above this one. Scroll up to view it.)
Now that I have a smart phone I can read the "QR codes rock."
Now instead of saying, "QR codes rock," it opened up on the pilot in the locked US Hawks Hang Gliding Association Membership/Ratings page
it could become one of the ways we could recognize and honor members and ratings.
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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby eagle » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:10 pm

Rating Cards ~ THE DARK SIDE is what we have now.
Private Business Monopoly taking over and charging us for everything including Free airspace.

USHPA Pilot Proficiency System & Maybe the HPAC Pilot Ratings
Have lost their integrity mainly when they went from being a Normal Club to Racketeers,
Dictators with iffy instructors demanding payment to Fly Free public sites
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pilot proficiency, Certification and Rating System
In USA and Canada hang gliding is considered a self regulating sport and does not require any official license as far as the government and law is concerned.
Technically that means that nothing is stopping you from taking a hang glider and jumping off a cliff.
or establishing a Club ID/Rating system

Practically speaking however almost all flying sites require a pilot to be a member and his skills certified by a national organization in that country. In USA this organization is USHPA and in Canada it’s HPAC.
These organizations will issue ratings to pilots based on pre-established criteria which takes into account both pilot’s experience and skills.

Ratings are issued sequentially:
H1 – Beginner
H2 – Novice
H3 – Intermediate
H4 – Advanced
H5 – Master

Flying sites will usually post pilot rating requirements that pilots must have in order to be able to fly there. Practically speaking you gain access fly unsupervised at most sites at Intermediate rating (H3).
H5 is mostly a gimmick as no site requires an H5 to fly there.
The requirements for gaining different ratings in the two countries is different, with Canada requiring more then double the experience necessary to achieve certain ratings vs. USA.

Stop me if I'm wrong,... by Law
We are free to to establish our own pilot ID/Rating systems,

Rating Cards ~ My Vote is YES
Using the existing establish rating system as a model.
For list of requirements see the following:
USHPA Pilot Proficiency System, HPAC Pilot Ratings

Link : https://www.ushpa.org/legacy/documents/ ... -12-02.pdf

The problem goes back to the City CEO-ZAR Mafia, what will they accept
As they do govern the outcome thru their chain of command and a corrupted City lease agreement
~ Bird Brain ~
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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby JoeF » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:49 pm

Consider rating oneself. Be smart and get reviewed by people seasoned in the chosen art.
Walkers, hikers, surfers, dancers, jumpers, wing runners, hang gliders, pole vaulters, kite boarders, kite pilots, energy-kite pilots, etc.
Add ratings by any club or org, if you wish.
FAA requires no ratings for hang gliding or kite pilots; but one is to follow the FARs.
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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby Rick Masters » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:21 pm

I think the US Hawks should look exactly like the USHPA cards
For US Hawks Preferred Aeronaut
This will help avoid confusion at USHPA sites.
The numbering and rating system should also be and look exactly the same.
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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby Bill Cummings » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:48 am

USHPA's instructor insurance was designed with a loop-hole.
If I fly at a BLM site in New Mexico as a non-USHPA member the insurance company will not protect the instructor.
The only hurdle I have for not exercising my right to recreate on BLM lands is peer pressure.
I don't see my flying as any imposition on any instructor.
The instructor signed on with an insurance policy that will exclude the instructor
from coverage when I am there exercising my right. That was the instructor's choice.
The policy wording was designed to guilt nonmembers into paying for membership. Paying will assuage
the nonmembers' guilt while voluntarily waving their rights.

If the USHPA membership card or any word or acronym on the card is not copyrighted where
would there be a problem making the US Hawks Hang Gliding Association membership card to
look the same?
Should the only deviation be the Hawks acronym in place of the USHPA's?
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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby JoeF » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:26 pm

The "art" is copyrighted even without circle C or statement.
A second issue regards fair trade and deliberate confusion of trade names.

A new art with unique trade name could still exude hang gliding.
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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:45 am

Bill Cummings wrote:The instructor signed on with an insurance policy that will exclude the instructor from coverage when I am there exercising my right.


That's USHPA's way to enforce their monopoly. To see how defective this is, imagine if AllState Insurance wrote policies that were invalid if any non-AllState motorists were on the same road you were driving on!!

Bill Cummings wrote:If the USHPA membership card or any word or acronym on the card is not copyrighted where would there be a problem making the US Hawks Hang Gliding Association membership card to look the same?
Should the only deviation be the Hawks acronym in place of the USHPA's?


I would certainly not want to use USHPA's logo in any way. That ugly thing reminds me of the old Proctor and Gamble logo:

USHPA_PG_Logo.png
See the resemblance?
USHPA_PG_Logo.png (113.06 KiB) Viewed 121 times


There were rumors that the Proctor and Gamble logo had some kind of satanic connection (see Wikipedia), but regardless of that, I think it's just ugly. The same is true for the current USHPA logo. The older logo was better, but I'd rather us have our own distinctive look.

But that's just my opinion. I think this would be a matter for the Board to decide.
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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby Bill Cummings » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:09 pm

There is so much thought that has to be included in a rating card and/or website verification.
It might be easier if we took one bite at a time out of this elephant.
What is the feeling among the contributors here? Should we take one issue at a time like Rick's suggestion to eliminate the H5 (Master) rating or is it important that we go with Bob's suggestion that we pattern the same way the USHGA/USHPA is rating pilots?
The US Hawks leaving out the H5 rating; how could that adversely effect us down the road of time?

How about discussing this H5 issue and boil it down to a motion and a vote?
Then we can decide what the next element of the rating card and ID should be.
It looks so far as if the Hawks should have an ID/Rating card.
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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby Rick Masters » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:50 pm

It looks so far as if the Hawks should have an ID/Rating card.

Yes. We need one to comply with the requirement of the FAA that hang gliding be self-regulated.
All the details are up to us.
I would advise no competition, no tandem, no towing, no power, no paragliding, no master rating.
Many members will argue for these, but we have clearly seen that his road leads to a major clusterf**k and insurance mafia.
Just footlaunch recreational hang gliding as originally specified by the FAA.
This is the simplest and most economical way to build a legal alternative organization. It is not an absolute restriction.
The other ratings are best regarded as beyond the scope of the US Hawks but will remain available through the USHPA for a $ignificant contribution.
And if we make the card in the following way, members will be able to have whatever they want:

The US Hawks card holder could be a transparent plastic sheath with three layers consisting of two pockets. A USHPA card could slip into the first pocket in front of the US Hawks rating card.
The first layer would have the US Hawks logo and other information adhered to the plastic (inside), like permanent membership, cleverly designed to overlay a USHPA card but allow the relevant USHPA info (like ratings) to be seen.
The second pocket would hold the US Hawks rating card.
Without a USHPA card, it would simply display the US Hawks rating card in the second pocket. The overlays would match.
The flip side of the US Hawks rating card would display the relevant section of the member's state recreational sports liability exemption law.
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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:32 pm

Rick Masters wrote:I would advise no competition, no tandem, no towing, no power, no paragliding, no master rating.

I agree with no paragliding because we are not a paragliding association.

I also agree with no competition (at least not directly supported by the association), but I don't think that's part of a rating anyway.

However, if a current USHPA pilot has a towing rating or a tandem rating or a master rating, then it would be hard for me to ask them to give that up in order to leave USHPA and join the US Hawks. So I'd be in favor of keeping those ratings.

As for paragliding, there is another organization (ParaHawks.org) that will issue ratings based on equivalent USHPA ratings. So that might be a way to handle other aspects of the sport that we might not consider part of the US Hawks itself. But for my choice, I think we'd want to include towing and tandem (at least recreational tandem) ratings so they can be transferred as I mentioned above.

Having said that, I really like Rick's idea about the cards:

Rick Masters wrote:The US Hawks card holder could be a transparent plastic sheath with three layers consisting of two pockets. A USHPA card could slip into the first pocket in front of the US Hawks rating card.
The first layer would have the US Hawks logo and other information adhered to the plastic (inside), like permanent membership, cleverly designed to overlay a USHPA card but allow the relevant USHPA info (like ratings) to be seen.
The second pocket would hold the US Hawks rating card.
Without a USHPA card, it would simply display the US Hawks rating card in the second pocket. The overlays would match.
The flip side of the US Hawks rating card would display the relevant section of the member's state recreational sports liability exemption law.


That's a very clever design that recognizes the continued importance of USHPA cards to our members. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

P.S. I'm sorry that I missed Eagle's post earlier:

Eagle wrote:In USA and Canada hang gliding is considered a self regulating sport and does not require any official license as far as the government and law is concerned.
Technically that means that nothing is stopping you from taking a hang glider and jumping off a cliff.
or establishing a Club ID/Rating system


That's exactly right. We're self-regulating right here in this topic.    :salute:

It's also a coincidence that I was just given a tip to contact a Canadian flying organization, and I've introduced a motion to add them as a US Hawks Affiliate on our home page (see other topic). Comments are welcome.
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