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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby Bill Cummings » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:35 pm

I'll confine myself to just the H5 element of the rating/ID card.
Might a good compromise be to grandfather in the H5 ratings
by the USHGA/USHPA and also recognize future USHPA H5 ratings but the
US Hawks not issue H5 ratings?
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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby Rick Masters » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:12 pm

If you are already an H5, you are a USHPA H5.
If the Hawks issue cards as I described, you slip the USHPA card into the pocket and you have a Hawks card with all the ratings.
You guys want to do all this extra work with towing and tandem and instruction. Really?
Who is going to give up flying to be in the office all day repeating everything the USHPA has already done?
There's no reason to do it. There's no reason to re-invent the wheel.
Whatever has been done to the satisfaction of the FAA, we simply appropriate.
The FAA doesn't care which org in the sport is issuing the ratings, or if people jump from one org to another.
A rating is a rating. It can't be trademarked or copyrighted when it is meeting a government mandate.
The USHPA is in for a rude surprise when they find out that the FAA doesn't care who is doing the self-regulating.
We are hang glider pilots and we are going to self-regulate our sport.
Others, like the USHPA hang glider pilots, are expected to do it too - but they have no special privilege over any other group of hang gliders.
There is no federal requirement that hang glider pilots form only one organization.
The big difference between the USHPA rating and the Hawks rating is that the Hawks rating is permanent.
It says that on our card on the overlay.
Why are we doing this?
Because we want to compete with the USHPA? No!
The USHPA stole hang gliding and built the insurance mafia and started milking members as cash cows.
What happened to the simplest and most inexpensive form of flight?
We want it back. We want it cheap. We want it now. And we want it done with as little effort as possible.
And who put all those nets in the air?
We want the hang glider pilots to bail out of the USHPA and join us.
Lets make it attractive and easy.
Let's grab all the free stuff first - the stuff we already paid for in the first 15 years of our sport when we were the United States Hang Gliding Association.
USHPA ratings that become permanent Hawks ratings, and state recreational law instead of site insurance, is a great start.
Leave all that other sticky stuff for later.
Or, as I've suggested before, for the Chapters.
With the Hawks providing the basic foundation for recreational hang gliding, the chapters can deal with towing or instruction or whatever they deem to be a local problem.
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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby Rick Masters » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:05 am

I totally agree with the system that keeps the rating permanent. I was member of the USHPA in 2016 and when I learned that lapsing in their membership nullified the rating, I contacted them saying that was ridiculous and abusive. People may simply be member of another association and/or still fly. Even not flying several years would not affect much the skills that can be regained easily with some practice. It did not change the USHPA minds.
So, I would like to apply to the Hawk 5 based on my HPAC advanced rating. There is no flying rating higher in Canada. I have flown several sites in Canada, USA and France in all sorts of conditions. I have done a few towing flights, most of them going cross-country. The only issue maybe is that I have flown three different types of hang gliders. But then again, I also fly and have flown paragliders (many types), have flown ultralights (3-axis) and monomotor aircrafts.

Serge's post from the Ratings Application thread illustrates how the USHPA (and other national orgs) have turned the hang gliding associations WE FORMED for OUR BENEFIT into cash cows.
US Hawks ratings should be permanent so as not to take advantage of members.
Individual Autonomous Chapters will be free to impose Currency Requirements if there is a problem - but if there is no problem, don't fix it, and certainly don't use it as an excuse to shake down the membership!
Note that an HPAC card should fit the US Hawks card holder as easily as a USHPA card. Any card from a national org should be regarded as valid by the US Hawks and their Autonomous Chapters, regardless of the arbitrarily-imposed expiration date.

Ratings should be issued by Special Observers of Autonomous Chapters, not Commercial Instructors.
Not that there is anything wrong with commercial instruction but the US Hawks should not get involved with it.
It's already established. Leave it alone.
The USHPA has turned commercial instruction into a cash cow by eliminating Special Observers.
This is wrong.
If a Special Observer signs off on a pilot's rating skills, then he has earned those skills and holds that rating on a permanent basis.
And his rating is just as valid as one obtained through commercial instruction.
It is not the US Hawks responsibility to be the nanny to hang glider pilots.
Hang gliding can be dangerous. You can get killed.
It is the PILOT'S responsibility to stay current and proficient. No one else's.

There is a philosophy involved in creating a foundational hang gliding association that will be immune to bureaucratic creep.
It has to be simple. Everyone needs to understand it for it to work.
Hang gliding is running off a hill with wings strapped to your back.
You go fly around, land, fold it up and go home. That's it.
I wanna tow!
Fine. That's an Autonomous Chapter issue. Get a USHPA tow rating or an autonomous Chapter tow rating and the US Hawks will recognize it and regard it as permanent.
I wanna do commercial instruction for money!
Fine. The USHPA will take care of you. Or an Autonomous Chapter can issue you an instructor's rating and the US Hawks will recognize it and regard it as permanent. But we can't help you cover your a** for liability. That's your problem.
I wanna fly tandem!
Fine. You need an instructor's rating as per FAA guidelines.
I wanna get rich taking tourists joyriding!
No. The Hawks BOD votes to revoke your instructor's rating.
I wanna big headquarters and a fancy magazine full of paragliders and ultralights.
No. The US Hawks is an Internet presence. You get to participate in this free Internet forum about recreational hang gliding.
I wanna...
You wanna $wiss Army Knife. Go join the USHPA and leave us alone.
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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:10 am

Rick Masters wrote:The USHPA stole hang gliding and built the insurance mafia and started milking members as cash cows.

         :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Rick Masters wrote:What happened to the simplest and most inexpensive form of flight?

         :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Rick Masters wrote:We want it back. We want it cheap. We want it now. And we want it done with as little effort as possible.

         :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Rick Masters wrote:And who put all those nets in the air?

         :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl:
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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:38 am

Bill Cummings wrote:I'll confine myself to just the H5 element of the rating/ID card.
Might a good compromise be to grandfather in the H5 ratings by the USHGA/USHPA and also recognize future USHPA H5 ratings but the US Hawks not issue H5 ratings?

I think we've worked out a pretty good rating system so far (thanks for your leadership in that regard Bill :salute: ).

There are over 20,000 posts on the US Hawks forum and it can be easy to miss a few (I often lose track of stuff myself). Our ratings section outlines our current ratings and procedures. We currently have HGP and Hawk0 through Hawk5. If there are any specific suggestions for changing our current system, that would be a good place to start.
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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby SamKellner » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:44 pm

How much good will it do to have an outdated u$hPa card with my US Hawks card?

I'm done with them and don't ever want to have anything to do with them.

Jumping through their hoops to achieve instructor status was expensive for me.

It was a goal Terry Mason and I set out on and I never would have accomplished it without his contribution.

We never intended to make it an income business, just teach people pure flight.

I'm seeing more descent in the local/Tx. FAR103 groups than ever before, stepping away from uShPa.

Quite a few, even PGers are realizing they really do not need the likes of Mark Forbes.

PanAm Hawks ? :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup:

:wave:
Southwest Texas Hang Gliders
US Hawks Hang Gliding Assn.
Chapter #4
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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby Bill Cummings » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:59 pm

Keith B. started the ID/Rating Card thread in July 2016
He suggested:
"My proposal is :: To create an ID/Ratings card for the US Hawks members

In my opinion the steps should be :::

1) Present the idea to the members for discussion and allow adequate time for all members to consider the proposal.

2) The proposal should then go in front of the members for a vote---majority wins --end of discussion."
More --- See page one......
We should move this to the next step in the private board discussions for motions and voting.
There has been more than a year for comment.
In a effort to get the ball rolling I have suggested that we first take one element at a time. (What to do with the H5 rating on the US Hawks rating/ID card)
My suggestion is to have more discussion in the private board discussion section and hopefully get to a motion and vote by the board.
This is just a baby step. It seems to be a foregone conclusion that we should have some type of a rating card but to my recollection there has been no vote yet.
I would like to call the board to the private board discussion and ask for a motion.
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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby Bill Cummings » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:03 am

We currently have HGP and Hawk0 through Hawk5.

It does not appear that there is enough support at this time to revisit the Hang 5/Hawk5 element to the US Hawks Rating/ID Card.
For the time being we will stay with:
We currently have HGP and Hawk0 through Hawk5.

Returning again to:
Keith B. started the ID/Rating Card thread in July 2016
He suggested:
"My proposal is :: To create an ID/Ratings card for the US Hawks members

There have been proposals as to how we should go about setting up an ID/Rating Card.
Scott:
PS - An easy way to give some security to US Hawks ratings is just how the USHPA is currently doing it - with QR Codes. I just found a site that will produce a code with "your" rating info in text.

____________________________________________________________________
Postby Keith Beebe » Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:15 pm
I really like the hologram card Rick presented.
Wingspans QR codes idea like USHPA is using probably adds security but I must admit that in my area I've never seen one used . Think I'm just too low-tech ! Maybe we can do both ?
How about a window sticker while we are at it ??

___________________________________________________________________
Rating Cards ~ My Vote is YES
Using the existing establish rating system as a model.
For list of requirements see the following:
USHPA Pilot Proficiency System, HPAC Pilot Ratings
Link : https://www.ushpa.org/legacy/documents/ ... -12-02.pdf
The problem goes back to the City CEO-ZAR Mafia, what will they accept
As they do govern the outcome thru their chain of command and a corrupted City lease agreement
~ Bird Brain ~

____________________________________________________________________
Postby JoeF » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:49 pm
Consider rating oneself. Be smart and get reviewed by people seasoned in the chosen art.
Walkers, hikers, surfers, dancers, jumpers, wing runners, hang gliders, pole vaulters, kite boarders, kite pilots, energy-kite pilots, etc.
Add ratings by any club or org, if you wish.
FAA requires no ratings for hang gliding or kite pilots; but one is to follow the FARs.

____________________________________________________________________
Rick:
The US Hawks card holder could be a transparent plastic sheath with three layers consisting of two pockets. A USHPA card could slip into the first pocket in front of the US Hawks rating card.
The first layer would have the US Hawks logo and other information adhered to the plastic (inside), like permanent membership, cleverly designed to overlay a USHPA card but allow the relevant USHPA info (like ratings) to be seen.
The second pocket would hold the US Hawks rating card.
Without a USHPA card, it would simply display the US Hawks rating card in the second pocket. The overlays would match.
The flip side of the US Hawks rating card would display the relevant section of the member's state recreational sports liability exemption law.

____________________________________________________________________
Is there any more discussion?
Is there any   MOTION   to move to:   Board of Directors Private Discussions  
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Re: Should the Hawks have ID/Rating cards ?

Postby Rick Masters » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:29 pm

One more thing. Hawks HQ should transfer a USHPA H5 Master rating to Hawks H4 (Skygod), with special endorsements to be signed off by a Hawks Chapter that does that stuff.
Or, like I said, have the USHPA H5 recognized.
This avoids US Hawks HQ from being involved in tow and tandem ratings.
Tow and tandem have both been twisted into financial opportunities by the USHPA.
Why should the future Hawks be immune?
Don't put this burden on US Hawks HQ.
Don't force incoming Directors to be tow and tandem certified.
We're supposed to be a recreational hang gliding association.
Those who don't tow and don't do tandem will have an equal voice only on a BOD where these ratings are not required for the BOD to function.
You are getting into bureaucratic creep territory.
Don't go there.
Keep it simple.
If its simple, it might work.

1) Recognize USHPA ratings.
2) Accept ratings issued by Hawks Chapters.
3) Maintain control by having the power to rescind ratings if necessary.
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