Re: Bob's Motion to ban hawk891

Postby magentabluesky » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:52 pm

What are the rules for banning?

Looking over the Frequently Asked Questions there does not seem to be any rules about being banned or rules for the process of being banned from the US Hawks, just references that it is possible to be banned.

That does not seem fair to invite people to your forum and then ban them for posting topics you don’t want them to talk about.

These are the references to banning in the “Frequently Asked Questions”:

Why can’t I login?
There are several reasons why this could occur. First, ensure your username and password are correct. If they are, contact the board owner to make sure you haven’t been banned. It is also possible the website owner has a configuration error on their end, and they would need to fix it.


Why can’t I register?
It is possible the website owner has banned your IP address or disallowed the username you are attempting to register. The website owner could have also disabled registration to prevent new visitors from signing up. Contact a board administrator for assistance.


What are Administrators?
Administrators are members assigned with the highest level of control over the entire board. These members can control all facets of board operation, including setting permissions, banning users, creating usergroups or moderators, etc., dependent upon the board founder and what permissions he or she has given the other administrators. They may also have full moderator capabilities in all forums, depending on the settings put forth by the board founder.
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Re: Bob's Motion to ban hawk891

Postby Free » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:32 pm

magentabluesky wrote:What are the rules for banning?

Looking over the Frequently Asked Questions there does not seem to be any rules about being banned or rules for the process of being banned from the US Hawks, just references that it is possible to be banned.

That does not seem fair to invite people to your forum and then ban them for posting topics you don’t want them to talk about.


Michael, you've just made the case against yourself. You feel it was fair for Jack Axaopolous to do exactly that to Joe Faust, without a good reason.
That is your shame/crime as I see it.
You now feel it is unfair for US Hawks to have a process to rid a horrible dishonest anonymous troll that only came to this forum to sow hatred and division?
Stfu man. You are digging a hole.
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Re: Bob's Motion to ban hawk891

Postby magentabluesky » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:17 pm

Free wrote: You feel it was fair for Jack Axaopolous to do exactly that to Joe Faust, without a good reason.

Question Mark?

That is not exactly true. The discussion is about “what are the rules”, are the “rules published” for the participants to take notice.

Jack Axaopolous publishes his rules. Joe republished Jack’s rules so we are assuming Joe read Jack’s Rules and took notice of Jack’s rules.

Joe’s post of Jack Axaopoulos’ Rules
Jack Axaopoulos alias "sg"
May 19, 2016, clip for historical study wrote:HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

= KEEP IT CIVIL. Attacking other members, or covert implied attacks are NOT allowed. No harassing or stalking other members. Inflammatory posts are not allowed. This includes "photoshopping" member pictures in a negative way. You will get a warning if you break this rule. If you persist to do this, you will be banned.Threads that start to spin out of control, will be LOCKED. If you wish to cry censorship because a thread is locked when people start acting like children, take it to another forum.

= Dont spam the forum. No advertising on this site. Ask SG for permission first.

= When posting, think about non-HG pilots who come to visit the site every day. Please put your best foot forward and showcase the fun adventurous atmosphere we experience every day in the landing zone after a great flight

= No aliases. One account per person.

= No PORN. It is against my server companies policies and there are plenty of other websites for that stuff. If you couldn't show it on TV, don't post it here.

= Please treat the admin as a regular user. As long as you follow the rules, there is NO CHANCE you will banned because you disagree with the admin. The admin would like to be part of this community too without having to walk on egg shells because people think his word holds more weight for whatever reason. It does not. But the admin will do his job as moderator when he has to. But please follow the rules and don't make him do it, he doesn't enjoy that part.

= No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

Link


I conclude Jack Axaopolous did not do exactly to Joe Faust what the US Hawks did to Hawk891.

It is regrettable that the conversation with Hawk891 went out of control, but as Hawk891 stated, he was mislead, no rules about banning were published on the US Hawks site.
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Re: Bob's Motion to ban hawk891

Postby magentabluesky » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:53 pm

. . . . . And furthermore Joe has no standing on the grounds Jack Axaopolous banned him based sex or his sexual orientation.

Hawk891 may have a case he was discriminated against based on his sexual orientation, as Joe right out of the box said he could not talk about “those” subjects on the Hang Gliding General Board. Hawk891 would have standing in a civil matter.
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Re: Bob's Motion to ban hawk891

Postby JoeF » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:48 pm

Michael,
Contrary, I did not come right out and point to subjects he could not talk about. Go back and see the first two posts. His and mine. Consider correcting your overreach; TIA.
Here is my full post, my so-called-by-you out of the box:

Out of the box Joe wrote:Freedom has responsibilities. There is an off-topic freedom of speech section. Be well. Be right to all. Lift, Joe.

Michael, what that says:
1. Freedom has responsibilities.
2. There is an off-topic freedom of speech section.
3. Be well.
4. Be right to all.
5. Lift,
Michael, you have distorted my post terribly; please correct the matter. Your post has been saved as posted. It is as if you cared not at all about the content of my short post and then derived whatever it is you are pushing.

magentabluesky Michael Grisham wrote:. . . . . And furthermore Joe has no standing on the grounds Jack Axaopolous banned him based sex or his sexual orientation.

Hawk891 may have a case he was discriminated against based on his sexual orientation, as Joe right out of the box said he could not talk about “those” subjects on the Hang Gliding General Board. Hawk891 would have standing in a civil matter.


Where are you getting your material about sex? My last topic in Jack's place had zero to do with sex; the banning had zero to do with sex; you are introducing sex. Seems really off, Michael.

In no way did my first reply say he could not talk about any topic on the Hang Gliding General Board; Michael, you are creating paper tigers that are to be burned. Do you want people to say unfair questions such as this: "Michael, have you stopped beating your dog?" Or compose paper tigers unrelated to matters like: "Michael, you may have a case in civil court against yourself as you may be slapping yourself silly with internal sticks."
Then I see you kiss up to Davis. What the heck are you doing, Michael; are you out to plaster paper tigers all around this forum? Are you out to deliberately unfairly injure people?
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Re: Bob's Motion to ban hawk891

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:48 pm

Please pardon my interruption ...

These are two quotes (from 2012 and 2014) where our policy of requiring real names of people who attack others is both published and explained. This policy predates the establishment of the U.S. Hawks Advisory Board of Directors, so it was implicitly approved when the Board was established. There have been no motions to change this policy.

Sep 23, 2012 12:38 pm
https://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php ... 5239#p5239
Bob Kuczewski wrote:The US Hawks has a policy that we do not allow attacks by anonymous members who do not give their names. So if anyone wants to come here and attack you (or anyone else), then they'll have to give their real name or be restricted to the "Free Speech Zone".


Nov 19, 2014 12:22 pm
https://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php ... 8599#p8599
Bob Kuczewski wrote:Hello Steve (cc Tad),

I've been having a conversation with Tad regarding your reinstatement to the general US Hawks forum.

As you may remember, I took the position that people should not be allowed to attack others on our forum without people knowing who they actually are ... in real life. That's why I restricted your posting to the "Free Speech Zone" on our forum.

I've seen too many forums where "puppet" users are created to make it appear that there are lots of people with a particular view, when the reality was that they were just a bunch of aliases for one person. In fact, I was personally told this by someone doing that exact thing on the hanggliding.org forum. I am hoping to do something better on the US Hawks forum.

So I've arrived at my own policy to avoid that situation. My policy is that I want to have a reasonable certainty of the identity of each person who is engaging in any significant personal attacks against others. I currently do that with at least one phone call (possibly more). It's not a perfect system, but I think it's better than what we see on most of the other national forums. I stand behind giving people a public voice, but only if they're willing to stand behind it as well.

I welcome the chance to discuss this with you, and you are welcome to call me any time at 858-204-7499.

Thanks for signing up with the US Hawks.

Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski


Please continue your discussion with the understanding that our policy of prohibiting anonymous attacks has been well established for many years. That's why "hawk891" was restricted to the "Free Speech Zone". And once restricted, "hawk891" then elevated the level of attack to where it violated the terms of service that were agreed to and was banned.

Michael, for you to compare our careful, thoughtful and fair process to Jack's actions against Joe shows a severe lack of judgement on your part. My best advice to you is to reconsider what your recent outbursts have done to your previously sterling reputation. You've hitched your wagon to an ill-concieved position that you can't defend. It's time to turn around.

With best intentions ...
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Re: Bob's Motion to ban hawk891

Postby magentabluesky » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:04 am

Wow, Bob, thanks for informing us of the US Hawks policy.

Is there a reasonable assumption that a brand new poster would know that policy or to be able to easily find that policy on the US Hawks website?

The policy is not displayed on the “Register” page. The policy is not displayed in the “Frequently Asked Questions” or the “Terms of Use”.

I do not see a policy page anywhere on the US Hawks website.

Is a new poster supposed to use the “Search” function to find all the needles in the haystack to know the US Hawks Policies?

Oh, buried under “Building the US Hawks” is the “Issues for the US Hawks Board of Director” and “Board of Directors Decisions”, but still no place to find “US Hawks Policies”.

Is a new poster supposed to search through all those decisions and postings of the Board of Directors to piece together what the “US Hawks Policies” are?

Where is the concise notification of the “US Hawks Policies” to the public?

Notify the public of the “US Hawks Policies” before the discussion spins out of control.

Take some responsibility, Bob Kuczewski.

See my post under Should US Hawks require real names.
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Re: Bob's Motion to ban hawk891

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:10 pm

magentabluesky wrote:Wow, Bob, thanks for informing us of the US Hawks policy.

Is there a reasonable assumption that a brand new poster would know that policy or to be able to easily find that policy on the US Hawks website?


Yes. I explicitly described the policy twice to the supposedly "brand new poster". That's more than a reasonable assumption. That's a proven fact.

You should stop embarrassing yourself Michael. The internet has a long memory, and you'd be better off apologizing than continuing to dig a bigger hole.

Saved for reference:

magentabluesky wrote:Wow, Bob, thanks for informing us of the US Hawks policy.

Is there a reasonable assumption that a brand new poster would know that policy or to be able to easily find that policy on the US Hawks website?

The policy is not displayed on the “Register” page. The policy is not displayed in the “Frequently Asked Questions” or the “Terms of Use”.

I do not see a policy page anywhere on the US Hawks website.

Is a new poster supposed to use the “Search” function to find all the needles in the haystack to know the US Hawks Policies?

Oh, buried under “Building the US Hawks” is the “Issues for the US Hawks Board of Director” and “Board of Directors Decisions”, but still no place to find “US Hawks Policies”.

Is a new poster supposed to search through all those decisions and postings of the Board of Directors to piece together what the “US Hawks Policies” are?

Where is the concise notification of the “US Hawks Policies” to the public?

Notify the public of the “US Hawks Policies” before the discussion spins out of control.

Take some responsibility, Bob Kuczewski.

See my post under Should US Hawks require real names.
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Re: Bob's Motion to ban hawk891

Postby magentabluesky » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:52 pm

Bob you do know about time don’t you?

Time is about one event happening after another event.

You do know what pre notification and post notification is?

Hawk891 first stated he had a belief that the US hawks was a free speech zone.

There was no pre notification as he pointed out in the information presented to him.

You know what the rules were, but he did not.

Then you notified him about what the rules were.

Hawk891 then apologized for the misunderstanding after the post notification.

That is after the discussion went out of control.

Yes, you did notify him. It was a post notification after the discussion went out of control.

The current discussion is about providing a pre notification so new posters know what the rules are before the discussion goes out of control.

What did Hawk891 know and when.

What did Bob know and when.

What did Joe know and when.

Everyone has their own mind and only knows what they know at a particular point in time.

Please be sure you know what you don't know, before you start listing names.

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Re: Bob's Motion to ban hawk891

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:38 pm

Michael, "hawk891" first posted in the topic titled "Intro and serious freedom of speech concern with this site". That first post was on Feb 18, 2019 at 10:00 am. As documented on this forum, I was hang gliding with Joe Faust at Dockweiler on that day. I didn't find time to reply until later that same day (Feb 18, 2019 7:39 pm). This was my reply:

Bob Kuczewski wrote:Hello Hawk891,

So far your speech has been unfettered. But we do have a long standing rule that attacks cannot be made anonymously. You'll notice that people either use their real names or have satisfied us that their real names are known. For example, it's well known that "Free" is Warren Narron. In some cases we have asked for additional verification of identity such as a phone number associated with your real name.

You are welcome to remain anonymous if you like, but then you cannot use your account to attack others. We have witnessed too many fake users posting as "sock puppets" on other forums. That's not fair to the people who do give their real names.

Your posts so far have been clearly critical of Joe Faust, and yet you have not provided your real name. That's fine at this point because you've not been aware of the rule. You are now.

If you would like to talk about hang gliding issues, you're welcome to do so in the main forum. If you want to talk about non hang gliding issues we do have a "Free Speech Zone" for that.

Thank you, and welcome again to the U.S. Hawks.


Michael, your statement below appears to me as an attempt at deception. That's my theory of YOUR mind.

magentabluesky wrote:Bob you do know about time don’t you?

Time is about one event happening after another event.

You do know what pre notification and post notification is?

Hawk891 first stated he had a belief that the US hawks was a free speech zone.

There was no pre notification as he pointed out in the information presented to him.

You know what the rules were, but he did not.

Then you notified him about what the rules were.

Hawk891 then apologized for the misunderstanding after the post notification.

That is after the discussion went out of control.

Yes, you did notify him. It was a post notification after the discussion went out of control.

The current discussion is about providing a pre notification so new posters know what the rules are before the discussion goes out of control.

What did Hawk891 know and when.

What did Bob know and when.

What did Joe know and when.

Everyone has their own mind and only knows what they know at a particular point in time.

Please be sure you know what you don't know, before you start listing names.

Frank
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