[Bob Kuczewski]

Michael, we again appeared to post at the same time, so I'm just documenting your statements. Please read my last post again.

If Bob Kuczewski was a real man, he would apologize to Jack Axaopoulos for lying about Jack threatening posters that did not happen, a flat out lie of Bob Kuczewski.

But Bob Kuczewski is not a real man.

Bob Kuczewski is a lying pussy.

“All it takes for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.”

[Bill Cummings]

Some things that are unclear to me are the following.
Is there proof on this website that Bob's intent was to lie?
Is there proof on this website to support the claim of slander?
Is there proof on this website to support the claim of fraud?
Is there proof on this website that would exceed the level of belief, Vox Populi, suspicion, or supposition concerning this claim.

[wingspan33]

While looking at the linked thread I found the below statement by Bob.

It was my view and I think it was neither myopic nor self defeating. My mistake was over-estimating the courage and character of the three involved. I never expected them to all chicken out and let this be done to Joe and USHGRS without speaking up. That was clearly a mistake on my part. I accept that criticsm.

Bob says it was his "view". He doesn't say "It was clearly a fact and . . . .". He also defines himself as making a "mistake" twice in the above quote. And Bob accepts criticism from others that he, in deed, made a mistake.

Regarding the ". . . courage and character of the three involved." if one or more of the three had "stepped up to the plate" so to speak, then I'd bet that Bob would have felt he had accurately estimated his or their courage and character. There are probably ways that Bob feeling that way could also had been wrong. Maybe some thrid party gave them $10K to defy Jack the Ax. It would then have been greed that motivated them rather than courage and (good) character.

It could be possible that Hawk891 was given $10K to sign up here and flame the place. Great guy, he/she just need money to pay his/her mortgage.

So, Bob made a mistake about a view he had and recognizes it as a mistake. How does Micheal Grisham "view" this situation? I think, perhaps, from some alternate reality. Could he have somehow missed some very important points IN WRITING here on the US Hawks. Rose colored glasses make it easy for a person to cherry pick stuff that fits the alternate reality of that person. Making claims doesn't make those claims true.

[JoeF]

  I agree to amend the motion to drop "lead" as suggested by Bob.  

[Bob Kuczewski]

  I agree to amend the motion to drop "lead" as suggested by Bob.  

Thanks Joe. It might be helpful to post the full amended motion which still has my second. We can begin voting at any time.

For Michael, this is an example of Jack threatening everyone - including you. This was reported by Joe Faust, but a click on the link shows that the topic no longer exists. It may still be in a private basement or only visible to people logged in to Jack's site. Were you not aware of this threat by Jack? Were you not aware of the frivolous banning of Joe Faust? They are all threats to everyone.

sg replied in his Basement to Frank:

RE: ASKING FOR NAMES OF ALL HG.ORG BANNED PERSONS.#405579
By sg - Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:11 pm
Not going to play these silly bobK games. People know what you guys are up to and they report it to me. Members here are not idiots. You knew for a fact the person in question was banned. Either be a part of this community and leave bob and his little crew of extremists out of it, or just stay on the other forum. Not giving them ammo to badger and harass more people here. Have no patience for the insanity spilling over from bobs site. Dont do it again. Final warning.

Its sad to see you so easily fooled by Bob and crew. He plays a good game. Fooled me once too. But there is a reason he's banned from everywhere. The guy even asked me to blatantly RIG an election. But I guess you believe all his bulls*** EXCUSES even though I have 100% evidence.

Last time I will ask you. Leave all things Bob off this site. We're all sick of his crap.


Read more: http://forum.hanggliding.org/viewtopic. ... z5WzicN2LJ

And, of course, sg locked the topic, so no retort may be made in his space.

[JoeF]

Fraud is generally defined in the law as an intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person to another with knowledge of its falsity and for the purpose of inducing the other person to act, and upon which the other person relies with resulting injury or damage.

Michael, please consider applying what you promoted in what I have quoted from you. Applying such would have you refrain from calling things fraud and people liars when intention to deceive is not proven fact. Thanks in advance. People may have errors, but that does not rise to intent to deceive.

[JoeF]

AMENDED MOTION without "lead":

Appreciating that opinions differ on some matters, and aiming to a good family life in this forum, and respecting Michael's respect of Family in hang gliding and his understanding written in his words that intent to deceive is core matter, then I am moved to make a motion with a hope of a new day soon for our good forum:

Motion (changes have been made):
   I move to the following for the Advisory Board to consider for seconding and possible voting:  
  The U.S. Hawks Advisory Board has investigated Michael Grisham's "Cease and Desist" and faces the request to determine the truthfulness of statements quoted in the complaint.
Cease and Desist Letter [Postby magentabluesky » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:32 pm
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3366 ]


The Board finds that Michael Grisham has yet to provide a key answer and evidence needed to resolve the matter. The Board further finds that Michael Grisham's apparent effective delay to give answer to a key question makes the case reasonably unresolvable at this time.[Did Michael Grisham have an understanding that Joe Faust was being unjustly treated ???] Without such answering, the presumption of innocence must fall with the accused. The Board therefore finds Michael Grisham's claims in the subject letter are not sustained and are hereby dismissed.

The Board does, however, agree that statements of opinion are sometimes best explicitly stated as such. the Board agrees with Michael Grisham's own admission in the letter: "Bob Kuczewski is entitled to his opinion." . So while many of the disputed statements are commonly implicitly understood to be opinions, the Board directs that moderator's notes be added explicitly stating "The statements in this post should be interpreted as the poster's opinions and not as statements of undisputed fact." This moderator note will be added to all posts requested by Michael Grisham and agreed by Bob Kuczewski. If there is disagreement on which posts should require the moderator's note, the Board will decide each such dispute on a case by case basis.  

[Bob Kuczewski]

  I second Joe's amended motion.  

We have a motion with a second. We can begin voting.

I cast my vote   YES  .

AMENDED MOTION without "lead":

Appreciating that opinions differ on some matters, and aiming to a good family life in this forum, and respecting Michael's respect of Family in hang gliding and his understanding written in his words that intent to deceive is core matter, then I am moved to make a motion with a hope of a new day soon for our good forum:

Motion (changes have been made):
   I move to the following for the Advisory Board to consider for seconding and possible voting:  
  The U.S. Hawks Advisory Board has investigated Michael Grisham's "Cease and Desist" and faces the request to determine the truthfulness of statements quoted in the complaint.
Cease and Desist Letter [Postby magentabluesky » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:32 pm
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3366 ]


The Board finds that Michael Grisham has yet to provide a key answer and evidence needed to resolve the matter. The Board further finds that Michael Grisham's apparent effective delay to give answer to a key question makes the case reasonably unresolvable at this time.[Did Michael Grisham have an understanding that Joe Faust was being unjustly treated ???] Without such answering, the presumption of innocence must fall with the accused. The Board therefore finds Michael Grisham's claims in the subject letter are not sustained and are hereby dismissed.

The Board does, however, agree that statements of opinion are sometimes best explicitly stated as such. the Board agrees with Michael Grisham's own admission in the letter: "Bob Kuczewski is entitled to his opinion." . So while many of the disputed statements are commonly implicitly understood to be opinions, the Board directs that moderator's notes be added explicitly stating "The statements in this post should be interpreted as the poster's opinions and not as statements of undisputed fact." This moderator note will be added to all posts requested by Michael Grisham and agreed by Bob Kuczewski. If there is disagreement on which posts should require the moderator's note, the Board will decide each such dispute on a case by case basis.  

[JoeF]

  I vote "Yes" on the amended motion just stated in the post immediately above this present post.  

[JoeF]

Voting is underway.