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Hang Gliding Renaissance? Mar 27 2018

Postby magentabluesky » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:48 am

The committee Link Mar 27 2018

James Bradley <<jb183>> writes:

Before the recent USHPA board meeting in Golden, Colorado, there were two several-hour sessions about creating a new future for hang gliding. Led by Bruce Weaver and facilitated by me, they were also attended by Matt Taber, Jayne DePanfilis, David Glover, Paul Murdoch, Martin Palmaz, Joe Greblo, Steve Pearson, John Harris and Nick Greece. They weren't official USHPA sessions, just some of us sitting down in a room for the first time.

These notes are mine and do not necessarily represent the thoughts of everyone in the room, though we had a pretty united look at it.

I believe the success of this effort will depend on

1. A real willingness to change, including things we/you might not feel like changing

2. A real willingness to experiment, try new things that no one has tried, learn from what happens and try again

3. Serious time and effort from volunteers who are already busy with other things in their lives

4. Some good luck that we can't anticipate, but that #1-3 might put us in the way of.

Here's a sketch of what we did:

(1) Identified issues: then moved on, because focusing on what's wrong leads only to incremental changes

(2) Drafted a “success fantasy”: it's 6 years from now and our efforts have gone very well, what does hang gliding look like in the US?

(3) Grouped the qualitative success fantasy elements into categories so we could consider approaches to each

(4) Teased out “First Steps" to do now that might have a chance of leading to the 6 year goals being realized in 6 years; all of these are experiments

(5) Made individual commitments to accomplishing all of the identified First Steps, by July 15 of this year.

Among those commitments was one by Steve Pearson of Wills Wing, to create a beginner hang glider model that is much easier to launch and land. A few days later Mike Meier of Wills Wing sent a note to a small list suggesting that as hang gliders have chased more performance they have become much more difficult to fly—ever since 1975! I'll let him decide when to share his detailed thoughts more widely, but he appears to agree that among current gliders even the beginner models are much too hard to launch and land, meaning they are dangerous and therefore require a high skill level to teach (high skill at both teaching and hang gliding). With this in mind our conversation included a fundamental reimagining of how hang gliding is taught and learned in the beginning stages, looking toward making it much easier to start and run a hang glider flight school than it is today, including the equipment, skills, planning and business prospects. What if it were easy enough that a moderately experienced hang glider pilot could get their instructor rating, buy a complete package of gear including teaching manuals and student workbooks, and start a flight school on any flat piece of ground with excellent student fun and safety?

We also had a frank discussion of the past and current culture of hang gliding, which has often not been inclusive, even of new hang pilots. Of course it's far from everyone who has acted this way, but negative interactions are unfortunately the most memorable. Personally I'll never forget a hang glider pilot screaming “no frame no brain!!” during one of my first paraglider launches in New England in 2007, and I don't remember anything else about that day.

Culture change is hard. This piece alone might need disciplined determination from every US hang glider pilot, not just to be welcoming and inclusive yourself, but to no longer tolerate another hang glider pilot acting like a dick. You have to be willing talk to those people. This difficult effort is required because we don't have time to wait for a generation to die off.

I hope the whiteboards memorialize most of our discussion, and as they were aimed at the people who were there they might be hard to follow. I encourage you to contact your colleagues who were in the room to fill you in. Most especially, if you would like to participate in this effort to reinvigorate hang gliding, please contact Bruce Weaver, who is leading the charge, at bruce (at) kittyhawk (dot) com.

I believe two things are vital to remember:

The age profile curve of USHPA's hang glider membership means that we will see dramatic drops in hang gliding numbers over the next few years, even if our efforts are successful. We have to remember to measure our success by other metrics than whether the blue line continues to slope down for awhile. It will, that's out of our control and it needs to be expected in the plan.

This isn't going to be a quick fix. It's going to take a sustained and determined effort by people who are willing to fail.

I came out of the meetings with a lot more optimism about hang gliding's possible future than I had before we started.
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Re: Hang Gliding Renaissance? Mar 27 2018

Postby Frank Colver » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:01 pm

There are many things to consider here, about that USHPA meeting, but I can certainly applaud Steve and Mike's thoughts about needing beginner hang glider design. Ease of launch and land can make a huge difference in how many learn to hang glide. The Condor probably comes as close to a good training glider in today's world, but we could do better.

I will give credit to today's single surface designs more or less "beginner" gliders as being easier to launch than the Rogollos (various forms) of yore. That is due to the full chord curved battens and reflexed tips no longer making the beginning run angle as critical as it was when the sail could go negative if you pulled the nose down too hard. Remember those days guys. It might be hard to remember because once a pilot got proficient it became second nature to hold the right angle of attack starting the run. Today's gliders like the Falcon, Alpha, Condor, etc., are much more forgiving in launch attitude. I discovered that when I returned to hang gliding after 38 years. My first flight on a Condor 330, at Dockweiler, started as if I was launching my Wills SST. Joe Greblo said why didn't you let the glider fly itself at trim? I was running with my arms wrapped around the uprights to carefully control angle even though there was enough breeze to lift the glider free of my shoulders and fly at trim angle. My second launch was much easier.

However, ground handling and full flare or run-out landings are more difficult with those gliders of today.

If I was going to aim for a medium performance (better than a Rogollo), easy to ground handle, launch, and land, training glider, I would go for higher sail area with lower aspect ratio (shorter span) and as light weight as is achievable with a sturdy glider able to take some abuse and reasonable "G" forces. Here carbon construction could be used where it wouldn't be subject to easy damage and more cable bracing to lighten tubing structures. My WW SST had cable braced leading edges and I remember it as a fairly light glider. It did lack the full chord cambered battens so the sail could (and did) go negative. :shock:

I would still follow the swept, reflexed tips of todays single surface flex wing designs but there is definitely room for some more thinking there. Of course I would keep the king post style top bracing.


Food for thought,
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Re: Hang Gliding Renaissance? Mar 27 2018

Postby Rick Masters » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:18 pm

:srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl: :srofl:
Soaring parachutists will now rescue hang gliding????
Hilarious. Pathetic, too.

My advice to USHPA hang glider pilots:
Run like hell. This is not your club.

James Bradley: "Culture change is hard."

RM: No, Bradley. There is no culture change. Hang gliding is one culture. Parachuting is another. You can put them in a blender and churn them up all you want, but like oil and water, they're not going to mix. They're not compatible.

James Bradley: "This piece alone might need disciplined determination from every US hang glider pilot, not just to be welcoming and inclusive yourself, but to no longer tolerate another hang glider pilot acting like a dick."

RM: If you disagree with James Bradley about the safety of paragliders, on the inadvisability of including them into a voting hang gliding club, or simply to preserve your sport, then you are just "another hang glider pilot acting like a dick."

James Bradley: You have to be willing talk to those people [the parachutists taking over your hang gliding organization].

RM: You mean like this, Bradley?
    http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=26621
    http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=25711
    http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=40924

James Bradley: I am one of a handful of US pilots who race on the Paragliding World Cup circuit. I am also the only US moderator on the worldwide online forum paraglidingforum.com (a volunteer position). Rick Masters was allowed to join there and post like anyone else. We learned that he is on an enduring anti-paragliding crusade. Like a religious zealot, he is not interested in facts or discussion unless they support his rigidly defined position. He behaved badly for some time on the forum and then we banned him, as we have a handful of other people over time.
http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2014/jul/18/paragliding-safety-questioned-after-chelan-butte-fatality/
http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2014/jul/19/criticism-paragliding-safety-criticized/

RM: What James Bradley is demonstrating here is USHPA's lack of willingness to recognize anything is wrong with paragliding. If you believe paragliding safety needs to be discussed, and are "willing to talk to these people," you will be told to STFU or you will be banned or expelled. I mean, talk all you want. Nobody's listening. And then, as you can see, both from James Bradley's recent "another hang glider pilot acting like a dick" comment above and the countless ad hominem attacks on Paragliding Forum, you'd better come over to the idea of changing YOUR hang gliding culture or you will be accused of "behaving badly." And the last thing you want to do is bring up the 1,678 paragliding fatalities since 1986, or discuss the negatives of parachute negative loading or the inherent safety of airframes. Parachutes and hang gliders don't mix. No frame, no brain. When you consider what's happened so far, it's pretty obvious that any hang gliding renaissance will have to come without, and from outside of, the USHPA.
-----------------
FYI - The not-for-the-faint-of-heart web site by Rick Masters that PF Forum would dare not name:
    Mythology of the Airframe
    https://web.archive.org/web/20120502132604/http://www.cometclones.com/     :shh: :o
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Re: Hang Gliding Renaissance? Mar 27 2018

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:43 pm

It's interesting to note that most of USHPA's "Executive Commitee" are "Directors at Large" which means they're not even accountable by any vote of the general members:

https://www.ushpa.org/page/board-of-directors

Take Mark Forbes, for example. He was just voted off the Board by the members of his region in December, 2017. But his cronies on the Board made him a "Director at Large". Isn't that convenient.

Same for USHPA's President Paul Murdoch and USHPA's Secretary Steve Rodrigues. Both are "Directors at Large". That's 3/4 of the Executive Committee. The same for Felipe Amunategui (one of USHPA's lowest).

So much for any hope of draining that swamp.
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Re: Hang Gliding Renaissance? Mar 27 2018

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:12 am

On the second reading I noticed this:

James Bradley wrote:Among those commitments was one by Steve Pearson of Wills Wing, to create a beginner hang glider model that is much easier to launch and land. A few days later Mike Meier of Wills Wing sent a note to a small list suggesting that as hang gliders have chased more performance they have become much more difficult to fly—ever since 1975! I'll let him decide when to share his detailed thoughts more widely, but he appears to agree that among current gliders even the beginner models are much too hard to launch and land, meaning they are dangerous and therefore require a high skill level to teach (high skill at both teaching and hang gliding).


Somehow I doubt that Mike's "meaning" was that they're building "dangerous" beginner hang gliders at Wills Wing. What an insult.
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Re: Hang Gliding Renaissance? Mar 27 2018

Postby SamKellner » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:45 am

Hawks,

I'm very surprised that these statements would come from Wills Wing. ???? It really don't make sense to me with the Condor, and Alpha being produced.

How much easier can they make a glider to fly? What is going on?? I think they are caught up/pressured into trying to make HG as "easy" as PG, which might not ever happen.

But as we know, easy vs. safety. But, could WW reps. make this argument in a u$hPa meeting? Doubtful. :(

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Re: Hang Gliding Renaissance? Mar 27 2018

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:23 am

SamKellner wrote:I'm very surprised that these statements would come from Wills Wing. ???? It really don't make sense to me with the Condor, and Alpha being produced.

It doesn't make sense to me either Sam. I think James Bradley misreported the facts. He wrote:

James Bradley wrote: ... he [Mike Meier] appears to agree that among current gliders even the beginner models are much too hard to launch and land, meaning they are dangerous and therefore require a high skill level to teach (high skill at both teaching and hang gliding).

First, the "appears to agree" is suspicious. Did Mike agree or not? Then James Bradley adds his own interpretation of Mike's "meaning" that they are "dangerous". Where was Tim Herr when James Bradley was publicly implying that Mike Meier said current beginner gliders are "dangerous"? This is the kind of crap we get from USHPA supposedly trying to save hang gliding. Rick Masters was right when he said hang gliding isn't dying - it's being murdered.

I'm also glad Rick pointed out James Bradley's moderator status on paraglidingforum.com. That says a lot. Like Rick, I was banned from paraglidingforum.com for exposing the truth. Yet now we're supposed to be trusting people like that to "save hang gliding"? Really?
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Re: Hang Gliding Renaissance? Mar 27 2018

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:23 am

By the way, I took a walk down "memory lane" by following one of Rick's links to "paraglidingforum.com" ...

Bob Kuczewski on Aug 4, 2011 wrote:
keithpenny (about Rick's post) wrote:Got to admit, he's done a very good job of creating a list of worldwide accidents all in one place. The guy has a lot of spare time and has put it to good use.

I was surprised by the statistics posted on Rick's page. I hadn't realized there were that many deaths each year in paragliding. Here's what he shows (year deaths):

    2011 48 (to date)
    2010 95
    2009 113
    2008 122
    2007 88
    2006 90
    2005 66
    2004 89
    2003 69
    2002 59

Just to be sure we're dealing with the facts, can anyone confirm or refute those statistics?

Thanks in advance.


No one was ever willing to confirm or refute those death totals. But James Bradley (Site Admin) posted:

James Bradley on Aug 4, 2011 wrote:
Bob Kuczewski wrote:I hadn't realized there were that many deaths each year in paragliding.

A lot more people than that die in the bathtub every year.

In the US alone, we lose about 40,000 people each year to car accidents.

Are you going to quit bathing and driving?

Why not?

Deaths-per-year numbers alone mean nothing.

As far as paragliders vs hang gliders, the same air that will collapse you on launch in a paraglider will give you sticky wing in a hang glider. The range of outcomes is the same.

RM is like Michael Moore. He selects emotionally charged anecdotes that appear to support his argument. He puts on airs of being instructive, again because it supports his case. (In Michael Moore's example, it also makes him a great deal of money.)

James


James Bradley wrote:the same air that will collapse you on launch in a paraglider will give you sticky wing in a hang glider. The range of outcomes is the same.

JamesBradley_178605864854eb73d5693e1.jpg
JamesBradley_178605864854eb73d5693e1.jpg (9.87 KiB) Viewed 6372 times

Is this they guy who's going to tell us how to save hang gliding?   :shock:
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Re: Hang Gliding Renaissance? Mar 27 2018

Postby magentabluesky » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:53 am

Bob Kuczewski wrote:Is this they guy who's going to tell us how to save hang gliding?


This guy: James Bradley Linkedin
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Re: Hang Gliding Renaissance? Mar 27 2018

Postby Rick Masters » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:40 pm

Is this they guy who's going to tell us how to save hang gliding?

No. Not us. Not the hang glider pilots of the US Hawks.
Because hang gliding is being murdered and we are smart enough to know where the bullets are coming from.
Perhaps misguided USHPA hang glider pilots are be drooling all over themselves, thinking this paraputz is their savior.
But I doubt it.
USHPA hang glider pilots appear to be slowly realizing what is going on.
After all the lip service, they are figuring out that the USHPA is not a "free-flight" organization.
It is a voting membership group where one heavily outsized parachuting segment ultimately has say over all hang gliding issues.
Hang gliding and the USHGA were merely a stepping stone for the ascendence of paragliding.
Hang glider pilots who put up with this are "second class citizens" with no real influence.
They lost their representation.
But there is no need for enmity.
The groups should simply be split apart.
They could then cooperate with equal say on issues relevant to both.
A new national hang gliding association or a coalition of smaller hang gliding organizations will return our voice.
But that won't happen until USHPA hang glider pilots get real and vote with their feet.
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