Poetic Justice

Forum for Lakeveiw Hawks Hang Gliding Club - Lakeview, Oregon

Re: Poetic Justice

Postby brianscharp » Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:23 pm

bobk wrote:If that's not what you meant, then what was your point?

They seemed to be the explanations you were asking for, nothing more.
bobk wrote:
bobk wrote:Roger, I've read your posts, and nothing you've written explains why you couldn't have provided a simple link to Sara's club forum to help support her.

That's exactly the same complaint that BigBird mentioned in the very first post of this topic.

flystraw wrote: One rule we have is to not be negative about people or groups on our website. There was a very good reason for not informing the group at HCR and not linking to them. That reason was the continual negative tone and rants about other groups and individuals on their website that continue to this day.

And referring to this site.
flystraw wrote:Unfortunately one disgruntled idiot waged an internet campaign against her on hanggliding.org which ended up with a bunch of anonymous, fictitious characters attacking her and her mother in a vicious, incite full and hateful way on this very forum and still resides in the new user forum.
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Re: Poetic Justice

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:32 pm

bobk wrote:If that's not what you meant, then what was your point?

brianscharp wrote:They seemed to be the explanations you were asking for, nothing more.

Thanks. I'm sorry if I misunderstood your comment.

Roger's responses might look like reasonable explanations, but they're not. If you see someone getting beaten, you don't just walk away because you don't like violence. The way to stop violence is to intercede with greater strength than the perpetrator. That's been the tried and true method from the beginning of time. That's why we have police, and that's why we give them guns.

The abuse that we saw on this forum was surely felt by Sara - in real life - in the town of Lakeview. I firmly believe that the solution was to stand together behind Sara. I think she deserved that from her friends. That's what was missing in the LakeviewHangGliding.org site, and I will bet that it didn't go unnoticed by Sara. She told me personally that she expected Roger and Derk to join her club to help it grow, but they did not. I may never know if they didn't join out of fear or malice, but the result was the same to Sara.

If anything is to be learned from this tragedy it is that we owe a level of decency to each other. We cannot sit by and watch someone being abused and do nothing about it. We can't assume that ignoring abuse will make it go away. That scenario always ends badly. The older I get, the more I realize the duty that we owe to each other to make our world a more tolerable place. That's what was missing in Lakeview.

On August 16, 2010, Sara wrote:I Love you all!!    Namaste, Sara Jean Martin

Namaste to you as well Sara.
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Well considered John Borton moment

Postby Free » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:46 pm

bobk wrote: Jan 25 2015:
If anything is to be learned from this tragedy it is that we owe a level of decency to each other. We cannot sit by and watch someone being abused and do nothing about it. We can't assume that ignoring abuse will make it go away. That scenario always ends badly. The older I get, the more I realize the duty that we owe to each other to make our world a more tolerable place. That's what was missing in Lakeview.



bobk wrote: Jan 09 2011:
The problem with just removing these posts is that it puts this forum on a slippery slope toward what we've seen on hanggliding.org, the Oz Report Forum, and the HGAA. Where do we draw the line? Furthermore, could I really trust myself not to abuse this power? Davis couldn't resist abusing his power, and Jack couldn't either. Should I think I'm so much better that I wouldn't start removing posts that were critical of me or my friends? Using that power - even once - puts myself (and this forum) on the slippery slope toward what we've tried not to become. I'm hesitant to do that until we've come up with some process or procedure to ensure that it isn't abused.

So as I said, I'm still struggling with this one. I don't know the answer yet, and I don't want to make a hasty decision that sets a bad precedent. So I'll continue to struggle and listen to all sides. Free speech on this forum ensures that I'll be forced to do that.

Thanks again Warren. It's an honor to have your well-considered opinions on this forum.

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Re: Poetic Justice

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:51 am

Warren,

If I thought that removing those posts would have removed the problems from Sara's life, I'd have done it in an instant.

Those ugly posts were only the symptoms of a problem and not the problem itself. You can't cure a sickness by treating the symptoms. Treating the symptoms only allows the underlying sickness to continue unabated.

The underlying problem for Sara (and Lakeview hang gliding) was a small core group of hateful people. That core group could have been easily overwhelmed if local people who fly Lakeview (like Roger and Derk) had shown strong support for Sara. But they backed away from the conflict and that's what allowed it to fester. All that evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing - or at least to not do enough.

By leaving the posts on the forum, I was showing the evil. I was showing the sickness. Some people on this forum (including you Warren) stepped forward to stand beside Sara because you saw that evil. That's what some of the local pilots should have done as well. Sara was counting on them, and they let her down.

Covering up a problem does not solve it. Erasing those posts would not have made the poster(s) go away. Lakeview is a small town of less than 3000 people, and the evil that we saw on this forum was surely manifesting itself in other (more concrete) ways in Sara's life than the words on this forum. That was the sickness that needed to be addressed, and the ugly words were a call for people to step forward to support Sara in whatever way they could. Some of you (Warren and others) offered posts of support from far away. Thank you. But the people who could have done the most - the local pilots who fly Lakeview - didn't step up. That's the disappointment that I've expressed in this topic.

Thanks again for your posts Warren.
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Re: Poetic Justice

Postby Free » Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:57 am

bobk wrote: Covering up a problem does not solve it.

Sweeping a problem under the rug doesn't make it go away.

Erasing those posts would not have made the poster(s) go away.

You knew up front that it was one poster and that a crime was being committed.

Lakeview is a small town of less than 3000 people,

Immaterial.

and the evil that we saw on this forum was surely manifesting itself in other (more concrete) ways in Sara's life

More reason to take action against it.

That was the sickness that needed to be addressed, and the ugly words were a call for people to step forward to support Sara in whatever way they could.

The ugly words were a crime being committed by one person. That person's digital fingerprints are all over this and it's in the 'record' to this day and forever.
The clock is ticking.

Some of you (Warren and others) offered posts of support from far away. Thank you.

No reason for you to thank me because I didn't do enough. I didn't change your mind and I let it go without educating you more to how serious cyber bullying can be. Especially for females, and exponentially more so for emotionally compromised people, to which you have alluded after the fact.

But the people who could have done the most - the local pilots who fly Lakeview - didn't step up. That's the disappointment that I've expressed in this topic.

People don't commit suicide because pilots won't join their club.
What needs to be done to pinpoint/prove who made those posts?
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Re: Poetic Justice

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:31 am

Here's my post from January 03, 2011 8:38 pm:

bobk wrote:FOR THE RECORD . . .

I have been checking the server logs and there is a good chance that all of these "people":

    mary947
    bobmiles20
    hanahadley92
    rachel8956
    cristasosa
    emily84
are all just one single person with an obvious grudge against Sara and possibly Kayte. I have to give credit to Warren ("Free") for being the first to spot all of these as likely aliases for one single person. Good Job Free!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

So Sara and Kayte, please ignore this one person with a grudge, and please carry on with your good work.

I support both of you even more after seeing what you're up against with these filthy posts.

Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski


Here's my final post on that topic from January 12th, 2011 8:45 am :

bobk wrote:Good comments all around. Thanks to everyone.

Here's where I think we are in Lakeview ...

It's clear that some small-minded person just doesn't like Sara, and as a result, they don't like the Lakeview Hawks. "Boo hoo"

It's also clear that a hang gliding and/or paragliding club in the Lakeview area would be positive for both the sports and the local community.

So I suggest that we just leave the haters behind and focus on building a club that's positive and uplifting for the sports and its members. If we do that well, then it will stand on its own merits. That's the high road.

I should also say that I've been very very encouraged by the SW Texas Hang Gliders club in Leakey Texas. I believe their town is even smaller than Lakeview, and they don't have nearly as many foot-launch sites. But what they lack in size and sites, they more than make up for in their positive "can do" attitude. I've been to two of their meetings so far, and there's been lots of good discussions about how to promote the sport, work with the local community, and just become a positive force for hang gliding. Even if Leakey had no hang gliding at all, I'd be proud to be a member of their club and just hang out with those good people. That's what I think the Lakeview / Warner Mountain club should do.

Let's ignore this small band of haters and move forward by building a positive group that will make us all proud to be members.


And finally, here are my replies to each of your points Warren:

Free wrote:
bobk wrote: Covering up a problem does not solve it.

Sweeping a problem under the rug doesn't make it go away.

Deleting those posts would have been covering it up and sweeping it under the carpet. That's why I didn't do it.

Free wrote:
Erasing those posts would not have made the poster(s) go away.

You knew up front that it was one poster and that a crime was being committed.

First of all, I didn't know until you made the suggestion and I looked it up to find the same IP address used in all cases. Second, I still don't really "know" since it is possible that multiple people can get the same IP address on different dates, or even use the same computer to register (such as a public library computer). Third, I do know from talking to real people that there were multiple people who were not happy with Sara. Fourth, I do not - to this day - know that a crime was committed. Can you point out the exact portions of any posts that you feel were criminal? Can you cite the exact law that was broken?

Free wrote:
Lakeview is a small town of less than 3000 people,

Immaterial.

It's not immaterial. My point was that Sara was likely bumping into those people in real life. They were likely making her miserable in real life. Deleting those posts would not have made that go away. The real problem needed to be addressed by the good pilots in the Lakeview area standing behind Sara. I felt the best way to do that was to have a local pilot take over the club from Sara but still give her a position of respect in the club. That would eliminate the complaint that it was "Sara's club" and draw the focus from her. It would also give her a little "win" in her life which I believe was something she needed. When people are faced with "tipping points" (see my comments below), it helps them to have something positive in their life to focus on. I believe a positive club with positive and supporting members would have been just such a "life preserver" in her times of need.

Free wrote:
and the evil that we saw on this forum was surely manifesting itself in other (more concrete) ways in Sara's life

More reason to take action against it.

I was taking action. I was contacting other pilots in the area (like Ralph and Derk and Roger) trying to enlist their support. I was trying to get them to step forward and support Sara's club in a public way. Sara had already gotten some newspaper coverage on the formation of her club. With more local support she could have built on that.

Free wrote:
That was the sickness that needed to be addressed, and the ugly words were a call for people to step forward to support Sara in whatever way they could.

The ugly words were a crime being committed by one person. That person's digital fingerprints are all over this and it's in the 'record' to this day and forever.
The clock is ticking.

I am not enough of an expert on the law to know if those words were a crime. From my layman's opinion, I think they were not. But you're welcome to change my mind. Again, please quote the exact passages from the posts and the laws that you think were broken. Also, while I don't feel a crime was committed, if you feel differently, please report it. Give law enforcement my contact information, and I'll cooperate with IP addresses and any other information they require.

Free wrote:
Some of you (Warren and others) offered posts of support from far away. Thank you.

No reason for you to thank me because I didn't do enough. I didn't change your mind and I let it go without educating you more to how serious cyber bullying can be. Especially for females, and exponentially more so for emotionally compromised people, to which you have alluded after the fact.

As I said above, from my layman's opinion, I didn't (and still don't) think a crime was committed. If you feel otherwise, then you should report it. As I said, I will cooperate with any requests from law enforcement.

Free wrote:
But the people who could have done the most - the local pilots who fly Lakeview - didn't step up. That's the disappointment that I've expressed in this topic.

People don't commit suicide because pilots won't join their club.

You're right. There was certainly a lot more going on in Sara's life than hang gliding or a club. But I do believe that small things can be the "tipping points" for such decisions. Based on the timing of her decision (2013?), I suspect that the failure of the club was just one of many things leading up to that tipping point. We may never know what the "final straw" was in Sara's life, but I firmly believe that positive acceptance of Sara and her club would have been a "life-line" that might have helped her past each of the potential "final straw's" that she faced. As I mentioned earlier, I think that positive "wins" in a person's life can save their life when they're down. I believe that having a successful club would have been such a win, and would also have given her a circle of friends and activities that might very well have helped her through whatever other problems she was having.

Free wrote:What needs to be done to pinpoint/prove who made those posts?

I still have the dates and times, the IP addresses, and the email addresses used to register those accounts. I also have IP addresses and dates and times of the posts. If you want to report this as a crime, please give the police my contact information, and I will supply them with that information. They would be the experts on how to proceed. As I said, from my layman's understanding, I don't see a crime at this time, but I'll certainly cooperate with any authorities who want to pursue it.
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Re: Poetic Justice

Postby Free » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:59 am

bobk wrote:
I still have the dates and times, the IP addresses, and the email addresses used to register those accounts. I also have IP addresses and dates and times of the posts. If you want to report this as a crime, please give the police my contact information, and I will supply them with that information. As I said, from my layman's understanding, I don't see a crime at this time, but I'll certainly cooperate with any authorities who want to pursue it.


The poster violated your own terms of service. Your arguments for leaving it up served the fiction (club) instead of your friend.
Post the IP address and for my conspiratal mindset, compare that to known posts made by Mark Webber, around that time.

You didn't comment on the cyber bullying/suicide connection. Your previous stance re: war on drugs uncovered simple lack of being informed before forming your seemingly immutable opinion, I believe you owe it to Sara to do your own research on the problem of suicide/cyber bullying.

Please post the information on the fraudulent poster.
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Re: Poetic Justice

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:27 pm

Free wrote:The poster violated your own terms of service.

Please quote me the terms of service that were violated. Thanks.

Free wrote:Your arguments for leaving it up served the fiction (club) instead of your friend.

I left it up for a variety of reasons - including a policy to not suppress people's opinions on this site. Your own posts in other topics are examples of that same policy. The club was not a fiction. It had three real members and hopes of others joining it. Sara felt that Derk and Roger would join and that would have given her the 5 members required for an official USHPA Chapter. But clubs don't need to be USHPA Chapters to be clubs. Your own "Mo Hawks" club is an example.

Free wrote:Post the IP address and for my conspiratal mindset, compare that to known posts made by your friend Mark Webber, around that time.

I have no known posts from Mark Webber on this site or I would have compared them. As I recall, we founded the Lakeview Hawks in late June or early July of 2010. The US Hawks forum was created on August 13th of 2010. I believe Mark Webber's hostility began with the Lakeview Hawks, and that's why he never joined the US Hawks. So I have no posts with his "known" IP address. Furthermore, anyone (including yourself) could sign up as "Mark Webber" and I would have no way of knowing if it was really Mark Webber or not. So a "known" IP address for someone isn't really "known" without verification through their provider - which might still not be "known". That's why when things get heated I often ask for a phone conversation so I can get a better sense that I'm talking to a real person. I also use other means to verify identity (like friends of friends etc) when needed. I'll note that I've asked you ("Free") for such a conversation/verification many times and to this date you've refused.

Free wrote:You didn't comment on the cyber bullying/suicide connection. Your previous stance re: war on drugs uncovered simple lack of being informed before forming your seemingly immutable opinion, I believe you owe it to Sara to do you own research on the problem of suicide/cyber bullying.

Again, from my limited knowledge of the law, I don't believe a law was broken. If you know more, then please post it. Regarding the war on drugs, I know that drugs can be extremely damaging to people and their lives. I know that from first hand experience with people whose lives have been ruined.

Free wrote:Please post the information on the fraudulent poster.

I'll give it to law enforcement, but it would be improper for me to post it just as it would be improper for me to post information about you. If you feel a law was broken, please report it and have law enforcement contact me for the information. Thanks.
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Re: Poetic Justice

Postby Free » Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:58 pm

bobk wrote:
Again, from my limited knowledge of the law, I don't believe a law was broken. If you know more, then please post it.

Bob, stop playing dumb. You know how to work a search engine.
I have to get off line for now but rest assured there are many laws on the books and more on the way.

Former Governor Jessee Ventura, recently won almost 2 million dollars from the famous 'sniper's' estate for lying about him and he's now going after the publisher for knowingly publishing these falsehoods to bolster their corporate (fiction) bottom line.

Regarding the war on drugs, I know that drugs can be extremely damaging to people and their lives. I know that from first hand experience with people whose lives have been ruined.

And you failed to study the issue enough to have the knowledge that the laws create most of this damage to their lives.
You were more angered by the messenger telling you that the government/military/industrial complex uses soldiers to protect poppy fields than what that implies.
Have you bothered to look further?

Free wrote:Please post the information on the fraudulent poster.

I'll give it to law enforcement, but it would be improper for me to post it just as it would be improper for me to post information about you.

I don't know of any laws that say that. I don't have the time to look it up so please post the relevant laws?
Gotta go for now so take your time in your response.
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Re: Poetic Justice

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:29 pm

Free wrote:Bob, stop playing dumb. You know how to work a search engine.

Warren, if you think a law was broken, then please report it to the proper authorities. Is that simple enough to understand?

Free wrote:
Regarding the war on drugs, I know that drugs can be extremely damaging to people and their lives. I know that from first hand experience with people whose lives have been ruined.

And you failed to study the issue enough to have the knowledge that the laws create most of this damage to their lives.
You were more angered by the messenger telling you that the government/military/industrial complex uses soldiers to protect poppy fields than what that implies.
Have you bothered to look further?

I've seen much more damage done to people by illegal drugs than was done to them by being jailed for using illegal drugs. Indeed, being jailed for using illegal drugs is part of the damage done by illegal drugs since everyone knows that going to jail is a potential side-effect of that use. And yet they do it anyway. That's how powerful drugs are on the human body. They're powerful because they hijack the body's own internal signalling mechanisms. The body was carefully designed (by God or evolution - your choice) to provide those signals to shape productive behavior. The use of those same (or similar) chemicals for "recreation" undermines those signalling mechanisms ... and the productive behavior. It's like holding a blow torch to your home thermostat and wondering why the heater won't kick on in subzero weather.

Also let me correct you that I was not "angered" by you telling me that the "government/military/industrial complex uses soldiers to protect poppy fields". I just think you're wrong. I also think you're wrong that the US government was behind the 9/11 attacks. I also think you're wrong that the World Trade Center towers fell "faster than gravity". In fact, I took the time to do the analysis on that one (http://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=881&p=3861#p3860), but you ignored it because it didn't fit what you wanted to believe. None of these things anger me, but they do make me question your ability to think rationally.

P.S. Here's what I wrote to you at the end of that topic on January 3rd of 2012:
bobk wrote:Warren, my friend, every warrior needs a little R&R once in a while. Come to Southern California and fly with us. There's a sunny beach (currently named "Dockweiler") where Joe Faust and I will be playing in the sand with Little Hawk and other flying contraptions tomorrow ... and hopefully into the foreseeable future. Please come join us some time and recharge those 60 year old bones. It's never too late.

Until then, please keep fighting the good fight, but take a little time to breath the air and enjoy the fact that you're still with us. We're glad to have you.

Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski

Let me extend that offer to you again. May 23rd, 2014 will be the 44th anniversary of the first "Otto Lilienthal Meet" back in 1971. We're getting a bunch of us together to enjoy a day on the beach with lots of flying things. Please come out and join us. It would be good to meet you in person. I mean this most sincerely.
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