Poetic Justice

Forum for Lakeveiw Hawks Hang Gliding Club - Lakeview, Oregon

Re: Poetic Justice for all

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:37 pm

flystraw wrote:Bob
One last reply to your suspicions and accusations.


Roger, I've read your posts, and nothing you've written explains why you couldn't have provided a simple link to Sara's club forum to help support her.

Furthermore, I've just posted (via "InMemoryOfSara") an example site guide using the data from your lakeviewhanggliding.org site. That took me a little over an hour, and it would have taken you even less (you wouldn't have had to download it as I did). You never did that.

Please take a look at that site guide and imagine how good Sara would have felt to see you and Derk do that for her. But instead of supporting her club with a site guide on her own forum, you snubbed her by creating a separate site claiming to be "Lakeview Hang Gliding" with no reference to her club ... or even her existence. How do you think that made her feel? What is your explanation for that?

As I said, actions speak louder than words.

You go on to claim that I should have been helping Sara. Are you blind? This entire sub-forum was created to help Sara build support for a club in Lakeview. Everyone in your area was welcomed here - including yourself. Why wouldn't you support that?

As far as me doing even more, I was already being criticized for helping build a Lakeview club "some 750 miles from home" (see your own post above). So I did what I could, but it was very important for local pilots - like yourself - to provide local support. That's what Sara needed. You not only let her down, but you rubbed salt in the wound by starting your own "LakeviewHangGliding.org" web site and then advertising it in Sara's own forum ... without providing a single link pointing back to her club. That's the "smoking gun" in this case.

Roger, you can twist things any way you want, but you cannot escape or explain that single most obvious fact.

Please let me know whenever you'd like to resign from the US Hawks and I'll be happy to deactivate your account.
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Re: Poetic Justice

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:57 pm

billcummings wrote:Bob wasn’t trying to plant his flag in Lakeview and steal the power from any local empire builder.
It has always amazed me the depth that some will sink to when they perceive someone as threat to their importance when that isn’t what was going on.

Exactly right Bill. I did, for example, help get the Tooele Hawks started, but I encouraged them to have their own leadership and to become a USHPA Chapter as well as a US Hawks Chapter. The same is true of the Southwest Texas club. The same is true of the Lakeview club. In all cased, I've tried to share my experience from building the Torrey Hawks with the local pilots so they could build and control their own clubs and their own destiny. Indeed, Warren's own "Mo Hawks" club has been his own club from the start. I've never interfered with how he ran it. I also haven't interfered with the RGSA or the Austin Free Flight Association. The US Hawks honors the local control of local pilots and that's what I tried to support in Lakeview.

The problem in Lakeview wasn't a club problem. It was a personality problem. Roger could have helped Sara by embracing her club, but he didn't. Now he has to face that reality ... and deal with it.

wingspan33 wrote:I never said anything about ". . . deleting anything connected with Sara." I suggested archiving the Lakeview Hawks forum somewhere on this site.

You're correct Scott. Note that it's possible that Warren thought that "archiving" meant "hiding" which is not the same. I'm hopeful that you're both on the same page but with slightly different definitions of "archiving". :)

BigBird wrote:He [Roger Jackson] also went to the HG.org and deleted our link to site information for Hat Creek Rim (see attached) and replaced it with his own. BTW, this was during the time we had the Special Use Permit and provided site insurance there.

Good observation Phil. That fits the pattern of "support" that Roger gave to Sara's effort to start the Lakeview Hawks. Rather than acknowledge and reference her work, he simply established an entire new site titled "LakeviewHangGliding" and didn't make a single reference to Sara's site - even though he knew that her site predated his by many months.

brianscharp wrote:If you want to archive/obscure evidence of attacks there's a better collection in the New User's Forum.

Thanks Brian. That part of the forum is a compromise to allow people to share information with minimal verification of identity. There can be a need for that (for example if someone expects retaliation for speaking out), but anything posted there must be taken as questionable since the people posting there have not passed even the simplest level of identity checks that we use on the forum. If you go there you'll find attacks against me that remain there to this day (h3anon comes to mind). I would certainly like to remove those posts, but that becomes a slippery slope. Where would it stop? Would we be removing all of Warren's posts next? And who's after that?

If we're going to go down a road where we remove posts, then we need a clear definition of when that's in order and when it is not. We also need processes to make those determinations when the answer isn't clear. The current case at Torrey is an excellent example of how important it is to have a system of justice that's fair and impartial.
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Re: Poetic Justice

Postby flystraw » Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:03 am

BigBird wrote:Here's just a little insight into the Roger Jackson (stawfly) I know.


The psychoanalysis continues.

BigBird wrote:He searched and found our club's corporation on the web and left extremely negative comments (see attached). He also went to the HG.org and deleted our link to site information for Hat Creek Rim (see attached) and replaced it with his own. BTW, this was during the time we had the Special Use Permit and provided site insurance there.


Yes I did post to the non profit. The negative comments were absolutely true. I posted them there in frustration at the ongoing Negative articles and comments on Phils website, (not a forum) an interesting mix over the years. (all documented in the “Sergent files”) Not sure that I deleted any links of Phils on the HGorg wiki page. I did add my own links but it is a WIKI page and anyone can update. Anyone can sign in there and look at the history.

BigBird wrote:IMHO, the guy has an overinflated self-worth and a hatred for us and anyone who stands in his way. I don't want to muddy up this forum with more Jackson files (there are many) but felt the members here should know a little more about the real Roger Jackson (much different than the wonderful person he describes himself to be).


Your opinion is rarely humble Phil, and thank you again for your wonderful psychoanalysis about my hatred, nature and my ruthless stance against "anyone" who stands in my way. I am sure you have it all documented in your "Jackson files", maybe you could start a "Phil,s wiki leaks on your Shasta Sky Sailors forum and just release a bit of damning evidence every now and then.You could have a sub forum of Jackson files!!

Not sure that I described myself as wonderful,I believe as humans we all have faults. but we all have insights Phil.

I have a little insight into the Phil Sergent (BigBird) I know.

My Sergent files are all over the place at the moment so I will just have to leave it up to the readers imagination.

If you don’t want to muddy up this forum Phil you are taking the wrong tack,this is Bob and Daves club forum, just take it over to your very own SSS forum that is where you can go off on all things Hat Creek and you could even have a Phil’s wiki leaks of the “Jackson files” and hey I am officially resigning from this wonderful US Hawks organization, club , forum or whatever, so I will not be able to counter your accusations. A situation you seem to enjoy.

Phil I am sure we will meet again somewhere on the web and maybe at one of my local sites. I am glad you have found Bob,he seems to be a great fit for your personality, you guys can really go somewhere together.

adios

Roger
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Re: Poetic Justice

Postby flystraw » Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:28 am

Bob wonderful you found a way to make a site guide in memory of Sara on your and Daves club forum/site. Small omission on the Hat Creek rim page but the rest copied well.

bobk wrote:Roger, I've read your posts, and nothing you've written explains why you couldn't have provided a simple link to Sara's club forum to help support her.

Furthermore, I've just posted (via "InMemoryOfSara") an example site guide using the data from your lakeviewhanggliding.org site. That took me a little over an hour, and it would have taken you even less (you wouldn't have had to download it as I did). You never did that.


Nothing explains it to you. You could have requested we make a link or add a site guide. I did not know doing these things was delegated to me.

bobk wrote:As I said, actions speak louder than words.

You go on to claim that I should have been helping Sara. Are you blind? This entire sub-forum was created to help Sara build support for a club in Lakeview. Everyone in your area was welcomed here - including yourself. Why wouldn't you support that?


Am I Blind?? I ask you the same question

Bob I have a hard time with the fact that you go to a HG festival 750 miles from home. You form the club round the fire one night. You head back home create an entire sub forum and leave the club formation and everything else to Sara. You did meet Sara so I imagine you realized then that she has had some mental health issues to deal with in her life, and you left it in her hands.

Why did not Dave or yourself do what you have just done and make the guide yourself, or the other members of your new club. You expected me to do all these things for your club? A non member who happened to live locally. I think you raised Saras expectations and then let her down.

bobk wrote:As far as me doing even more, I was already being criticized for helping build a Lakeview club "some 750 miles from home" (see your own post above). So I did what I could, but it was very important for local pilots - like yourself - to provide local support. That's what Sara needed. You not only let her down, but you rubbed salt in the wound by starting your own "LakeviewHangGliding.org" web site and then advertising it in Sara's own forum ... without a providing a single link pointing back to her club. That's the "smoking gun" in this case.


Incorrect, first time I criticized you about starting a club 750 miles from home was in my last post, after you became hostile, not when you are saying that I was obligated to do stuff for your club, even though I had no interest in joining your club. So you say it was important for local pilots like myself to give support. So if I understand it correctly you start the club, you provide the whole sub forum, and even though I have never met you or have any desire to be in a new club you now expect me as a local pilot to step up and provide links and copy the guide to your forum(you never requested that). I only can hope that if you go on a another club starting spree that you think it through a little better.

The “smoking gun” yikes. The drama of it all!!

bobk wrote:Roger, you can twist things any way you want, but you cannot escape or explain that single most obvious fact.

Please let me know whenever you'd like to resign from the US Hawks and I'll be happy to deactivate your account.


I feel I am a victim of a drive by clubbing, and then expected as I am local and fly to join your club, and it seems add links and site guides. I am twisting stuff?? I cannot escape or explain. Obviously no explanation will appease you, but hopefully I can escape Have a hard look at who is twisting things.

Thanks for the offer to resign from the US Hawks. I did not know I was a member of the US Hawks. I thought I was signing up for privileges to post on a forum when I signed up for my first post to self aggrandize about myself.

Yes deactivate my forum account or if it makes you feel better.

I officially "resign" from the US Hawks. I don’t have the time to answer Phil and your attacks any way. I have a life. So have at it guys I will just read the denigration and blame put on me from now on. (as is my nature)

Roger

P.S. BigBird wrote:He [Roger Jackson] also went to the HG.org and deleted our link to site information for Hat Creek Rim (see attached) and replaced it with his own. BTW, this was during the time we had the Special Use Permit and provided site insurance there.

Good observation Phil. That fits the pattern of "support" that Roger gave to Sara's effort to start the Lakeview Hawks. Rather than acknowledge and reference her work, he simply established an entire new site titled "LakeviewHangGliding" and didn't make a single reference to Sara's site - even though he knew that her site predated his by many months.
>>

Wasn’t sure whether to address Phil or yourself on this little ditty. Its it is a WIKI page anybody can update it. I fail to see anywhere in all the revisions where I deleted Phils links. I did add my own but Phils screen capture is a misnomer.

Now Bob gives the “attaboy” to Phil. Yes great wonderful observation Phil and oh yes it fits Rogers pattern of “support”. So making a guide website about Hang Gliding in my area has offended you? I needed your permission? Predated Saras site? You mean this one I am on now. I thought this was a forum not an informational website. Two different purposes.

Have at it boys Phil has the Jackson files to release yet. Wow.
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Re: Poetic Justice

Postby BigBird » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:27 am

<crickets chirping>
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A Different Approach

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:41 am

flystraw wrote:Bob wonderful you found a way to make a site guide in memory of Sara on your and Daves club forum/site. Small omission on the Hat Creek rim page but the rest copied well.

Please post the details of the small omission and I'll be happy to fix it.

In fairness, I also didn't implement the great weather updates and maps from your site. That might take a bit of work on the actual forum software, but I think those additions would be a good idea. If you or Derk could share the code that generated those, then that would be a welcome contribution to this site. Thanks in advance.

Regarding the main thrust of this discussion ...

I think everyone would recognize it to be highly inappropriate (and misleading) for anyone to start a "FunstonHangGliding.org" site guide that didn't contain a single link to the Fellow Feathers club. The same would be true for Sylmar and Crestline, and many other well established clubs throughout the country. I think you would agree with that.

Of course, Lakeview is not Funston, Sylmar, or Crestline. Even though Sara's club (Lakeview Hawks) predated your site guide by 6 months, it is fair to say that the Lakeview Hawks was not a "well established" club.

But that's not the issue either. The issue is whether you wanted to help Sara with her club or not. It's clear - to me - that if you really wanted to help Sara build her club, then you would have posted a link to Sara's club on your site. You might have even included a few words encouraging people to join and support it. You didn't, and that's the heart of my complaint. As I wrote in an earlier post:

bobk wrote:Roger, I've read your posts, and nothing you've written explains why you couldn't have provided a simple link to Sara's club forum to help support her.

That's exactly the same complaint that BigBird mentioned in the very first post of this topic.

Roger, if you can address that, then it might be helpful in reaching a more amicable conclusion to this discussion.
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Re: Poetic Justice

Postby brianscharp » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:18 pm

flystraw wrote: One rule we have is to not be negative about people or groups on our website. There was a very good reason for not informing the group at HCR and not linking to them. That reason was the continual negative tone and rants about other groups and individuals on their website that continue to this day.

And referring to this site.
flystraw wrote:Unfortunately one disgruntled idiot waged an internet campaign against her on hanggliding.org which ended up with a bunch of anonymous, fictitious characters attacking her and her mother in a vicious, incite full and hateful way on this very forum and still resides in the new user forum.
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Re: Poetic Justice

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:34 pm

brianscharp wrote:
flystraw wrote: One rule we have is to not be negative about people or groups on our website. There was a very good reason for not informing the group at HCR and not linking to them. That reason was the continual negative tone and rants about other groups and individuals on their website that continue to this day.

And referring to this site.
flystraw wrote:Unfortunately one disgruntled idiot waged an internet campaign against her on hanggliding.org which ended up with a bunch of anonymous, fictitious characters attacking her and her mother in a vicious, incite full and hateful way on this very forum and still resides in the new user forum.

Are you saying that Roger punished Sara by not linking to her site and not vigorously defending her because someone (likely Mark Webber) attacked her?

Would that be your answer Roger?
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Re: Poetic Justice

Postby brianscharp » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:27 am

bobk wrote:Are you saying that Roger punished Sara by not linking to her site and not vigorously defending her because someone (likely Mark Webber) attacked her?

No. Those are your words.
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Re: Poetic Justice

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:17 pm

brianscharp wrote:
bobk wrote:Are you saying that Roger punished Sara by not linking to her site and not vigorously defending her because someone (likely Mark Webber) attacked her?

No. Those are your words.

That's why I phrased it as a question. If that's not what you meant, then what was your point?

Your two quotes from Roger ("flystraw") amount to:

  1. Roger doesn't want negativity on his site.
  2. Roger saw a "disgruntled idiot" creating negativity toward Sara's club.

You appear to be using those two facts to justify Roger not even mentioning (or linking to) Sara's club in his "Lakeview Site Guide". That would be punishing Sara for the attacks made against her. It would also be rewarding the attacker by helping crush Sara's hopes for a Lakeview club. Is that your point or not?

By the way, this Lakeview Hawks forum contains a lot of history of what actually happened. I encourage anyone following this topic to read the actual record of what happened in those other topics to get a better perspective on this discussion. You'll find Sara optimistically working to bring together a club in her town, and you'll see lots of supporting comments from myself and others on this forum (Free, billcummings, Rodger - not to be confused with "flystraw" Roger, JoeF, SamKellner, Dennis, and Derk). You won't find any negativity other than the responses to the attacks against Sara and her club. It's not as if Sara or anyone on this forum was attacking anyone else. All the "negativity" originated from people outside of Sara's club and who opposed Sara's club. So snubbing Sara's club due to negativity by those opposed to Sara's club essentially rewarded Sara's opponents for their vandalism of her forum.

Here's a part of that history from 2010 (available in the "Hello Lakeview Hawks!!" topic) where I was responding to Sara's mother Kayte:

On September 7th, 2010, bobk wrote:
By the way, I should take some of the blame for the hard feelings. When the topic of a new club came up, and I saw Sara's enthusiasm, I thought she'd make a great first President, and that's why I encouraged her. I should have known that a small town would be full of mine fields if the proper people weren't contacted in the proper order and given the proper respect. I (silly me) just thought everyone would work together for a new club without half a dozen egos needing to be stroked.

But that's all in the past. Here's how I see the future ... in three easy cases.

Case 1 - Mark and the Chamber squash Sara and the Lakeview Hawks. This makes Mark and the Chamber look like bullies. Bad on them.

Case 2 - Mark and the Chamber try to squash Sara and the Lakeview Hawks, but Sara prevails and the Hawks grow. This makes Mark and the Chamber look like ineffective bullies because Sara kicked their butts. Bad on them as well.

Case 3 - Mark and the Chamber join in to support the Lakeview Hawks. One of the local pilots (Mark or Ralph or someone else) volunteers for President, and Sara turns it over and becomes the new Activities Director or Membership Committee Chair or any other Board Member position of respect. The Chamber gets a seat on the Board of Directors as well. This is the win win situation for everyone. Lakeview gets a hang gliding club. Mark and the Chamber participate and support it. Sara gets the respect she deserves for stepping up with such enthusiasm. They all take turns writing great stories for the local newspaper. They hold regular events, and get an "Adopt a Highway" sign dedicated to the Lakeview Hawks Hang Gliding Club coming into town. They get a few more local people interested in hang gliding. They live happily ever after.

Guess which case I was hoping for when I encouraged Sara to start the Lakeview Hawks?

My point is that the local pilots (including Roger) should have rallied around Sara to help bring about Case 3 (or at least Case 2). I believe Roger linking to and promoting Sara's club would have helped. Unfortunately that didn't happen, and I believe that's partly why we're left - very sadly - with Case 1.
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