Hello Lakeview Hawks!!

Forum for Lakeveiw Hawks Hang Gliding Club - Lakeview, Oregon

Re: Hello Lakeview Hawks!!

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:41 pm

I don't know about all that, but I'd just like to see Lakeview (and many other small towns) have a local hang gliding club that's seen in a positive light by the local community.

I don't know if all the personalities can do that in this case, but Sara's willing to give it a try, and I hope more people will join her. So far, the Lakeview Hawks has Sara, Dave Beardslee, myself, and maybe a few others (who I can't remember right now). Maybe it can grow from that ... maybe not. I'll do what I can, and I welcome the support of anyone else.
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Re: Hello Lakeview Hawks!!

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:17 pm

I haven't seen the original article yet, but it sounds like the Lakeview Hawks were featured in a local newspaper article. It looks like Mark (wild_high_mark and SeeMarkFly) posted the article and comments to hanggliding.org and the TorreyHawksForum. Mark was critical of the article because he felt it didn't properly reflect the general support of hang gliding by local pilots and the Chamber of Commerce. I've reposted Mark's post with my own comments interjected below. I think the article wasn't perfect (when is an article ever completely right?), but I don't think it was intended to slight anyone, and I hope it won't be viewed as doing so. Here's the article (as posted by wild_high_mark) with my comments...

wild_high_mark wrote:Sarah Martin has apparently met Superman.
Not the unmasked man of Metropolis but David Beardslee, a free flight veteran.
“He’s Superman; I believe that,” she professed.
Beardslee took Martin, a pilot of three years, on one of her two lifetime tandem flights, enough to get a taste of flight, enough enthusiasm to launch the Lakeview Hawks, ...

I think that's all correct ... and all positive.

wild_high_mark wrote:... an official group registered with the United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association that she hopes serve as the foundation for a wider culture for flight in the county.

I don't think the Lakeview Hawks are a USHPA Chapter yet, so that's either a misstatement by Sara or a misinterpretation by the reporter (it happens). In the worse case, that's strike 1. Her hopes that it might "serve as the foundation for a wider culture for flight in the county" is great. Well said Sara!!

wild_high_mark wrote:Her enthusiasm of the sport unwavering, Martin found it difficult that more local interest has not coalesced into something more consistent than the Festival of Free Flight but stressed her belief that interest in Lakeview just needs to be awoken.

She makes a good point. Why isn't there a local club to enlist more help for the existing events and to generate more interest for local pilots? This doesn't have to be seen as a criticism, but as an opportunity to build a local club. Why not?

wild_high_mark wrote:“I’m totally blown away that a club hasn’t taken off in Lakeview,” Martin said. “I think Lakeview has not had the right person come along.”

This appears to be true since there are hang gliding and paragliding clubs at almost every other flying site in the country. They form the backbone of our flying infrastructure in the United States. Why doesn't Lakeview have a club? I'm sort of blown away by that as well.

wild_high_mark wrote:“I’m wanting it to become more of a club for the youth also.” she said.. “It’s an educational teaching club but a social club to talk to pilots (too).”

Martin’s personal aim is to obtain enough education and training from local pilots so that flying solo will not someday sound like such a crazy idea. In the meantime, the group will function as a largely introductory and educational purpose.

That all sounds good to me! She's talking about outreach. Bravo Sara!

wild_high_mark wrote:“We’re not going to be going on the hill and watching these guys fly. That will be years down the road,” Martin said.

I'm not sure exactly who she means here, but I'm assuming she's talking about new people who might join to learn about the sport, so they won't be flying for years. That's probably unfortunate but it may also be true.

wild_high_mark wrote:The Festival of Free Flight being the group’s signature event to measure interest, Martin said she did not want it to be the only opportunity for free flight to take off.
“I don’t want it to be annual; I want it to stay in the community,” Martin said.

Again, I don't see any problem with that. One could read an implication that the Festival of Free Flight belongs to the Hawks, and we know it does not. In fact, it was the other way around. The Festival caused the Hawks to be formed due to the interest and synergy it generated. But that's just one reading. If you read it carefully, it actually says the Festival is the Hawk's way to measure interest. That's a true and fair statement.

wild_high_mark wrote:Martin said the Lakeview Hawks consist of five members, mostly local pilots. That fact she hoped would draw people into her infatuation. Martin admitted learning a great deal “by just hanging out on the mountain.”
Those electing to attend meetings can expect something resembling a science course, a primer on topography, geography, and climate.
“Bring your curiosity,” Martin advised.
Membership with the Lakeview Hawks is free.

I think that's all reasonable. The only potential problem is an assumption that she might get support form the local pilot community. Was she wrong? I hope she'll get that support and be able to grow the Lakeview Hawks.

Sara is fresh and excited about hang gliding. She's not trying to build an empire and she just wants to see a more organized approach to hang gliding in Lakeview that invites more people to participate. Isn't there enough common ground there to build on?
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Sara & Flying

Postby Dennis » Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:56 am

Hi Sara,

This post is more for you.

You don't know me, but I am somewhat following your progression in hang gliding to an extent, that said, I notice you have not posted anywhere HG related in a short while.

What are you doing as of late to get instruction in Hang gliding? I hope you've not lost interest in flying. Do tell! Spill all! Inquiring pilots want to know!

-Dennis
Dennis D
HG, PG, it's all fun.
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Re: In response to Mark Weber, this is Sara's mother...

Postby redsagebear » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:59 am

This is Saras' mother, Kayte, and I would like to make a correction in response to what Mark posted. I nor any of her family has ever had a restraining order on her. She is not a transient. She is excited to get involved with the community and has an innocence toward the sport of Hang Gliding. I was there when she jumped off of Black cap for her first time with instructor David Beardsley. To see the happiness on her face is something I will never forget.

Keep going Sara, follow your dreams and fly away!!

I love you, Mom
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Re: In response to Mark Weber, this is Sara's mother...

Postby Free » Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:29 pm

Kayte and Sara,
There are good people in hang gliding that will appreciate the efforts and enthusiasm of Sara and will help. Just hang in there and you will find them.

Mark Webber seems to have a few screws loose. He just might turn that bad attitude around at some point. There is hope..
If that fails there's always restraining orders! :mrgreen:
Stay safe and get good instruction.

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Re: In response to Mark Weber, this is Sara's mother...

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:54 pm

Go Momma Bear Go!!!

By the way, I should take some of the blame for the hard feelings. When the topic of a new club came up, and I saw Sara's enthusiasm, I thought she'd make a great first President, and that's why I encouraged her. I should have known that a small town would be full of mine fields if the proper people weren't contacted in the proper order and given the proper respect. I (silly me) just thought everyone would work together for a new club without half a dozen egos needing to be stroked.

But that's all in the past. Here's how I see the future ... in three easy cases.

Case 1 - Mark and the Chamber squash Sara and the Lakeview Hawks. This makes Mark and the Chamber look like bullies. Bad on them.

Case 2 - Mark and the Chamber try to squash Sara and the Lakeview Hawks, but Sara prevails and the Hawks grow. This makes Mark and the Chamber look like ineffective bullies because Sara kicked their butts. Bad on them as well.

Case 3 - Mark and the Chamber join in to support the Lakeview Hawks. One of the local pilots (Mark or Ralph or someone else) volunteers for President, and Sara turns it over and becomes the new Activities Director or Membership Committee Chair or any other Board Member position of respect. The Chamber gets a seat on the Board of Directors as well. This is the win win situation for everyone. Lakeview gets a hang gliding club. Mark and the Chamber participate and support it. Sara gets the respect she deserves for stepping up with such enthusiasm. They all take turns writing great stories for the local newspaper. They hold regular events, and get an "Adopt a Highway" sign dedicated to the Lakeview Hawks Hang Gliding Club coming into town. They get a few more local people interested in hang gliding. They live happily ever after.

Guess which case I was hoping for when I encouraged Sara to start the Lakeview Hawks?

redsagebear wrote:This is Saras' mother, Kayte, and I would like to make a correction in response to what Mark posted. I nor any of her family has ever had a restraining order on her. She is not a transient. She is excited to get involved with the community and has an innocence toward the sport of Hang Gliding. I was there when she jumped off of Black cap for her first time with instructor David Beardsley. To see the happiness on her face is something I will never forget.

Keep going Sara, follow your dreams and fly away!!

I love you, Mom
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Re: Hello Lakeview Hawks!!

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:22 pm

Here's a post that SeeMarkFly put on hanggliding.org (sorry for the length):

On hanggliding.org (Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:46 am), SeeMarkFly wrote:
bobk wrote:By the way, I should take some of the blame for the hard feelings. When the topic of a new club came up, and I saw Sara's enthusiasm, I thought she'd make a great first President, and that's why I encouraged her. I should have known that a small town would be full of mine fields if the proper people weren't contacted in the proper order and given the proper respect. I (silly me) just thought everyone would work together for a new club without half a dozen egos needing to be stroked.

But that's all in the past. Here's how I see the future ... in three easy cases.

Case 1 - Mark and the Chamber squash Sara and the Lakeview Hawks. This makes Mark and the Chamber look like bullies. Bad on them.

Case 2 - Mark and the Chamber try to squash Sara and the Lakeview Hawks, but Sara prevails and the Hawks grow. This makes Mark and the Chamber look like ineffective bullies because Sara kicked their butts. Bad on them as well.

Case 3 - Mark and the Chamber join in to support the Lakeview Hawks. One of the local pilots (Mark or Ralph or someone else) volunteers for President, and Sara turns it over and becomes the new Activities Director or Membership Committee Chair or any other Board Member position of respect. The Chamber gets a seat on the Board of Directors as well. This is the win win situation for everyone. Lakeview gets a hang gliding club. Mark and the Chamber participate and support it. Sara gets the respect she deserves for stepping up with such enthusiasm. They all take turns writing great stories for the local newspaper. They hold regular events, and get an "Adopt a Highway" sign dedicated to the Lakeview Hawks Hang Gliding Club coming into town. They get a few more local people interested in hang gliding. They live happily ever after.

Guess which case I was hoping for when I encouraged Sara to start the Lakeview Hawks?

Case (What is ACTUALLY happening NOW) 4 - Mark took up tennis, Caro quit the Chamber and NOBODY in town wants her job because of the constant complaints (of "not enough done").

Without Caro spearheading EVERYTHING, the Chamber closes.

(Apparently you did NOT see that one coming).

Sarah will have to be strong if hang gliding is to survive in Lakeview.
http://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=60 wrote:
redsagebear(Sarah) wrote:I am moving to Lincoln County in the spring for the new and improved Oregon Coast Community College.
bobk wrote:Did I hear you say "Corvallis Hawks"?
Yahoo!! Just let me know when I should add a new forum for your next new club!!!

OOoops, watch out Corvallis, here comes Sarah, just in time to ABANDON the flying season in Lakeview.

http://www.torreyhawksforum.org/viewtop ... =8440#8440
bobk wrote:The Lakeview Hawks Hang Gliding Club is a good thing.

Is that right?
For WHO???
Can you name even ONE person that has gained ANYTHiNG from having one of your "Hawks Clubs" in Lakeview?

I can, but just only ONE.

Mark, I spoke with Caro on August 24th, and I believe she agreed that having a hang gliding club in Lakeview would be a good thing. But what you all gain from having a club (or not having one) is up to you. If you want to make a fiasco out of it, then that's what you'll get. Sara simply enjoyed the idea of learning more about hang gliding and bringing people together for that purpose. If you all turned that into a mess, then that's on you ... not her.

So once again, I will ask you to consider "Case 3" from my previous post:

Case 3 - Mark and the Chamber join in to support the Lakeview Hawks. One of the local pilots (Mark or Ralph or someone else) volunteers for President, and Sara turns it over and becomes the new Activities Director or Membership Committee Chair or any other Board Member position of respect. The Chamber gets a seat on the Board of Directors as well. This is the win win situation for everyone. Lakeview gets a hang gliding club. Mark and the Chamber participate and support it. Sara gets the respect she deserves for stepping up with such enthusiasm. They all take turns writing great stories for the local newspaper. They hold regular events, and get an "Adopt a Highway" sign dedicated to the Lakeview Hawks Hang Gliding Club coming into town. They get a few more local people interested in hang gliding. They live happily ever after.

Mark, if you can't join in to make that happen, then that will be your legacy on the matter. Don't blame it on me, or Sara, or anyone but yourself.

Mark, you and Caro have done a lot for hang gliding in Lakeview. No one would ever deny that. Having a club simply builds on that work and provides a framework where more and more people can participate. If you let your animosity toward Sara (or me) keep that from happening, then you're shooting hang gliding in the foot in Lakeview. I'm asking you to NOT do that. Please. Thanks.

Finally Mark, I do have one formal request. If you're going to post quotes from this forum on hanggliding.org (or any other location), please have the courtesy to post a link to the source so people can get a chance to read both sides. It's also common courtesy when quoting another web site to post a link to that site. For that reason, I'm formally asking you to edit your posts on hanggliding.org (or any other sites) to include a link to the appropriate topics on this forum. Thanks again.
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Re: Hello Lakeview Hawks!!

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:48 pm

SeeMarkFly (from full message below) wrote:Lakeview has NEVER had a club, there are only two pilots here.

Hmmm... maybe that's telling you something, Mark. Maybe the reason you only have two pilots in such a great flying location is that you don't have any organized club to bring more people into the sport. Maybe your "club free" approach has been a dismal failure. Thanks for helping make the case for the Lakeview Hawks!!

You go on to say that you're not doing anything to stop the club, but I don't think that's true. I think you've done what you can to undermine the credibility of Sara and the Lakeview Hawks (just read what you've written already ... before you erase it). I don't know if you resent Sara because of her gender, or her lack of time in the sport, or because you feel you're not being properly honored for your efforts. But for some reason, you've dug your heels in against Sara and the club, and that will be your legacy.

As I read the tea leaves, I think you'll end up crushing poor Sara and the Lakeview Hawks. Good for you Mark!! You couldn't whip the dealer who sold you a bum vehicle so you get to take it out on poor Sara and her new club. I hope you feel good about crushing a young person who came to this sport with such positive enthusiasm.

Mark, I really don't want to see it end this way. You've done so much for Lakeview and so has Caro and the Chamber. I don't know why it's so hard for you to lend your support to the notion of a hang gliding club in Lakeview. What's your real objection? Is it Sara? Is it the idea of an organized club? Let's cut through the garbage and figure out what your real beef is here. Let's hear it...

On September 11th, 2010, SeeMarkFly posted the following on hanggliding.org:
Bob it trying to solicit my services here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7

But what you all gain from having a club (or not having one) is up to you.

Lakeview has NEVER had a club, there are only two pilots here. If there was a club, the time involved in "club business" would distract from the time available to handle hang gliding stuff. This is absolutely moronict!!!!
bobk wrote:If you want to make a fiasco out of it, then that's what you'll get.

I have NOT lifted a finger to make anything out of anything,
I am NOT a member!
I do NOT attend meetings!
YOU, on the other-hand, seem to be expending a lot of energy telling everyone what a "fiasco" Mark has created.
bobk wrote:Sara simply enjoyed the idea of learning more about hang gliding and bringing people together for that purpose. If you all turned that into a mess, then that's on you ... not her.

So what you are saying is that by Mark doing NOTHING AT ALL, he has actually made a mess? How does that work???

bobk wrote:So once again, I will ask you to consider "Case 3" from my previous post:

You keep telling me about all the work I need to do for you but we never really talked about my pay. I don't like to get out of bed for anything less than $68.00 @ hr.
It took me 4 hours to consider "Case 3", when your check clears (for $272.00) then I will post my answer here.

bobk wrote:Mark, if you can't join in to make that happen, then that will be your legacy on the matter.

MY legacy is:
I built a new launch site every year that I was here.
I hosted the "Nationals" every year that I was here.
MY legacy is DONE,
I took up tennis.

This is now YOUR legacy, I am passing the baton onto you and Sarah, good luck with that and I am EAGER to see what you can do!!!

bobk wrote:Don't blame it on me, or Sara, or anyone but yourself.

I do NOT "blame" anyone.
I am not sure how you twisted that one around enough to believe that I am angry.
NOT my style, I'm retired, remember. Every day, my goal is to have some fun, failure is NOT an option.
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Re: Hello Lakeview Hawks!!

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:19 pm

On hanggliding.org, SeeMarkFly wrote:Please feel free to join us (on THIS forum) when you can follow some simple forum rules.

What rules are those Mark?

Is there a rule that forbids writing "Just like the SGAA forum"?

Is that the kind of speech that must be banned?

That single line hit a nerve with Jack because it was right on the mark (no pun intended). He'd been running the HGAA as if it was his own private club. When I called him on it, he went ballistic because it was so true ... and he knew it. So he banned me. Is that what you support?
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Re: Hello Lakeview Hawks!!

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:57 am

On hanggliding.org (Sept 14, 2010) SeeMarkFly wrote:

SeeMarkFly wrote:
bobk wrote:
SeeMarkFly wrote:Please feel free to join us (on THIS forum) when you can follow some simple forum rules.

What rules are those Mark?

Is there a rule that forbids writing "Just like the SGAA forum"?

So you already know what to do, you just won't do it?
I'll bet you were an only child.

Wrong again Mark. I was not an "only child". Maybe your crystal ball needs dusting.
Oh, and I do know what to do. In fact, I'm doing it. How do you like ushawks.org so far? It's a pretty nice forum isn't it?

SeeMarkFly wrote:I will be here, operating well within SG's imposed limits, waiting for your answer.

That's funny. You don't even know what SG's imposed limits are ... because he doesn't know either. He just knows that when he's got no argument, he reaches for the "Ban" button ... just like Davis ... just like USHPA ... just like Jebb.

If you want to cower and be afraid to speak your mind, then you're on the right forum over there. I won't be joining you until that changes. I never thought you'd be the one to let yourself be muzzled ... anywhere. I concede that I was wrong on that count.
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