Mark Webber's split personality

Forum for Lakeveiw Hawks Hang Gliding Club - Lakeview, Oregon

Mark Webber's split personality

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:20 pm

On hangglding.org...
Mark Webber posting 'Are the needs of the many, greater than the needs of the few' wrote:SeeMarkFly is the grumpy old pilot Mark Webber.
Hawk-a-doodle-doo is the perky “young at heart” pilot Mark Webber.

Got it?
SeeMarkFly………….…..grumpy Mark.
Hawk-a-doodle-doo…..….perky Mark


Hey Mark,

Your post subject ("Are the needs of the many, greater than the needs of the few"), of course, reminds me of Star Trek. And so does your "Good Kirk / Bad Kirk" routine. Your wit is as clever as ever. :D

Hawk-a-doodle-doo (perky Mark) wrote:Howdy, howdy, howdy. Good to see everybody here!
Nothing new to report, yet I can see that as a positive thing.

As you may recall, both aspects of Kirk's personality were needed to be an effective leader of men, and I think you'll find that as well. Normally the two sides are best kept integrated, but I'm sure there are benefits to splitting them apart (although I thought SG's rules prohibited "sock puppets").

Your fundamental question is "Why should Lakeview have a hang gliding club?", and it's a fair question. The glib answer is that you won't know until you try one and see what comes from it. There's a lot of truth to that glib answer, and I can tell you that from my own experience with the Torrey Hawks.

For example, there's no way that I could have defeated David Jebb without the Torrey Hawks. There's no way we would have gotten any reasonable representation on the Torrey Pines City Park Advisory Board without the Torrey Hawks. We would never have been having years of hang gliding events (Second Sundays, Outreach activites, and more) without the Torrey Hawks. We wouldn't get free USHPA magazines sent to a local library without the Torrey Hawks. Most of these things happened without me ever envisioning them when I started the Torrey Hawks. They were the unanticipated fruits of that effort.

Having said that, there are more tangible and predictable benefits to having a club. First of all, it gives you a point of contact for (1) local press, (2) visiting pilots, (3) government agencies, (4) the general public, and (5) potential new pilots. Second, it gives you a mechanism to pool resources with other local and even national pilots for site maintenance, events, and promotion. Third, it gives hang gliding a permanence that outlives the individual pilots themselves (except for Sara, none of you are looking that young any more).

Now is the club necessary to do these things? No, of course not. I suspect you've been doing these things yourself for a long time. But a club is a tool that helps make the job easier. I'm sure you could build some kind of a bridge over a creek with your bare hands, but wouldn't it be easier with a hatchet or a saw? That's how you can think of a club. It's a tool that can be used to help support and grow both the sport and the pilots in your area. And just like a tool, if you take good care of it and use it properly, it will do its job for you. On the other hand, if you let it rust (or get taken over by Jebb's puppets), then it might be more dangerous than useful.

Mark, I know you're an independent spirit, and I admire that. But to really accomplish things it often takes more than one person. It takes people working together for a common goal. That's all that a club really is. But mostly, it's what you make of it.

From what I'm seeing, I don't have much hope for the Lakeview Hawks. You will have stood by watching it bleed to death by the side of the road. That's your choice, and this web site will mark its grave. Anyone who wonders why Lakeview (the Hang Gliding Capital of the West?) doesn't even have a club can stumble onto this little site to find out.

Go on and play with your sock puppet Mark. Here's a link to remind everyone what you were doing while the idea for a Lakeview club was bleeding to death without your help: http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=207988#207988.

Bob K.

P.S. I want to correct your July 4th story. I did not ask if you wanted to start a “local” chapter of the Torrey Hawks. The Torrey Hawks is a local chapter itself focused on Torrey Pines, and it does not have chapters (or even sub chapters). I was encouraging you to start a local club independent of the Torrey Hawks just as the Tooele Hawks is independent of the Torrey Hawks. They are all separate and equal entities, and the only national organizations (at that time) were USHPA and the HGAA. I was encouraging the Lakeview Hawks to become Chapters of those two national clubs, and I had no national intentions (beyond helping the HGAA) at that time. It was the infighting and effective collapse of the HGAA that caused me to start the US Hawks in mid August of 2010 (well over a month after the Lakeview Hawks were already founded). I hope that helps clear up the history.


SeeMarkFly wrote:Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:56 am
Post subject: Are the needs of the many, greater than the needs of the few

When I first perceived a disparity in the national organization (aka The name change), I showed proper disrespect by changing my name to Mr. USHPA SUCKS.
If any one around here remembers, I was in the air, flying with a guy named Tad Hurst. Any inquiries that I made (about “Boaring Pines”) were met with stern opposition to the proliferation of hang gliding (by the current RD AND owner of the paragliding school AND the leader of the pack (Tad, Brad, Doug, Jebb)).
It would be YEARS before I learned of USHpA's actual involvement (YES, they lied to us).

Well, NOW, there is another "national" organization that "supports" hang gliding called the Torrrey Hawks and there is a local chapter called the Lakeview Hawks.

How did Lakeview get a hang gliding club?

On the 4th of July this year, BobK visited us and participated in our Umpteenth Annual Festival of Free Flight. He saw HUNDREDS of people having fun and wanted to somehow be included, but there was no actual “club” to join in Lakeview.
He asked me if I wanted to start a “local” chapter of his Torrey Hawks and I told him there were only three pilots in town and a club did not make any sense.
Not to be persuaded by Mark’s opinion, Bob kept looking for someone to host his remote version of a nationally responsible hang gliding club till he ran into Sarah, A young non-pilot that had just finished a tandem flight with Dave Beardslee.
Sarah had more than enough energy to overcome any of Mark’s objections so the Lakeview Hawks was formed.
Not wanting a club in the first place, when I was asked to join, I declined.
Not needing a club in Lakeview, when Ralph was asked to join, he declined.
Not knowing there was a club in Lakeview, when it was published in the newspaper, John called me up and asked me “WTF”!!!

Lakeview has never had any kind of hang gliding club because of number of active pilots that actually live here. When we bump into each other in town, we have an automatic quorum, AND an “instant” meeting. No real need to schedule something.

Now that there is a club here, I would expect SOMETHING positive to come out of it.
The club President’s first press release was a bit condescending toward past efforts (see my first post).
STRIKE ONE!

There is a rumor of a “brochure”. Something that you might find in a motel lobby.
The problem that I see is people that stay in motel rooms in Lakeview is “just passing through” (only book one night). Lakeview is NOT a destination. It’s just a town that people stay at while en route to their actual destination.
Hang gliders that stay in motel rooms already KNOW about the flying in Lakeview.
Non hang gliders that read this “brochure” would be disappointed to find that Lakeview does NOT offer instruction nor have a training hill.
People that just want to watch hang gliding will not understand the weather dependant nature of this sport. They do NOT want to go to the top of the hill at the hottest part of the day and sit in the dirt waiting for some pilot to “go away”.
So this “brochure’ is really an informational pamphlet about hang gliding in general, nothing really helpful for increasing the number of pilots in Lakeview Oregon.
If this is just an informational brochure, I think the home office already has that kind of stuff (and if not, why not). I don’t understand why an uneducated non-pilot in Lakeview is designing a brochure to target a national market. I have to say A for effort….not a STRIKE.
BALL ONE!

Strike one, ball one. Seems like Mark is being “negative” here.
Well, Mark has spent YEARS living here and promoting the sport here. I kind of already know what works and what does not work.
But who am I to judge somebody else’s efforts?
AND I would like to highlight ANY positive action that this new club might produce.
So Mark is going to help, and in Mark’s “usual” fashion (OMG),
Well, the “other” Mark is going to help.
Let me explain, what I see is that a name change is in order.


SeeMarkFly is the grumpy old pilot Mark Webber.
He has lived in Lakeview for four years and does NOT see any reason to start the Lakeview Hawks club.
SeeMarkFly will post, right here on this thread, ANY and ALL negative repercussions from this new club.


Hawk-a-doodle-doo is the perky “young at heart” pilot Mark Webber.
He has a Zen like outlook on life and “appreciates” the push and pull of the yin and yang (the "pork and beans" of the spiritual world).
Hawk-a-doodle-doo understands that the younger generation NEEDS to make their own mistakes so they can learn. So a positive twist is needed for even the worst of situations.
Hawk-a-doodle-doo will post ANY and ALL positive repercussions from this club.
THIS perky pilot will negate that grumpy guy.


Got it?
SeeMarkFly………….…..grumpy Mark.
Hawk-a-doodle-doo…..….perky Mark
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More from Mark Webber

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:58 am

Let me start by saying it pains me to have to criticize Mark. I believe Mark has done a lot for hang gliding in Lakeview, and he's been a big help to me many times. But he's gone off the rails with regard to his hatred of Sara Martin. Here's his latest post to hanggliding.org:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18722&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=26
Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:59 pm Post subject: Just the facts Ma'm

This town is too small to get away with anything for very long.
I was helping to set up the New Years Eve band and they asked if I could stick around and get some live video of them playing with a crowd, just for some generic promotional material.
I was more than happy to stick around and tape about two hours of raw footage for the editor to work with.
During one of the band's breaks, a "local" sat down and introduced himself, Sarah Martins last boyfriend.
The (juicy) tidbit that I received tonight is that Bobk PAID for Sarah Martins membership to the USHpA.

So I would like to pose a question.
Who is a better member of the USHpA.
1. Mark Webber, who promotes ANY pilot that wants to fly.
Ooops, Mark Webber did NOT pay the USHpA..
2. A non-pilot that cannot help any pilot (other than drive retrieval)?
Sarah (actually Bobk) DID pay the USHpA.

Careful now, Mark is NOT a member yet he helps pilots fly (yea, paragliders too).
Sarah is NOT a pilot yet she is the "president" of the Lakeview Hawks hang gliding club here in Lakeview Oregon, AND Sarah is a "paying" member of the USHpA (except for the fact the money for her membership was not hers).
Sarah attends City Council meetings and confuses everyone with her "mission statement".

Careful now, careful, careful, careful.

Let me address the money issue first. Those who've known me know that I often spend my money to help hang gliding and hang glider pilots. Here are a few examples:

- Tandem flights for UCSD Students to introduce them to the sport
- Lessons to help a pilot recover his launch confidence
- All of the Torrey Hawks expenses (including food at Second Sunday events)
- All of the US Hawks expenses (including hours of time donated to this forum)
- Full Memberships in clubs where I've only flown a few times
- Donations to other clubs/events (like the SW Texas club, for example)

So yes, I helped Sara pay for her USHPA membership. I would have done the same for you Mark, if I felt you needed it. Ask the people who really know me, and they'll tell you the same. I don't usually brag about that, but since you've brought it up, I thought I'd set the record straight.

With regard to who is the better member of USHPA, I'm not sure what your point is. I don't see USHPA as evil. Instead I just see them making stupid decisions. If they made better decisions, then I would support them more. But instead of just working on their decisions themselves, I'm looking at the root cause of those poor decisions. I think the root cause is that they're a monopoly, and so they don't have any free market feedback telling them when they're making stupid decisions. That's why I'm working to build an alternate organization that will provide CHOICE in the marketplace. That will make things better for all of us - whether we're members of USHPA or not.

Mostly, I'm disappointed that Mark continues to post on hanggliding.org where he knows that I can't respond. If Mark is really sincere about making progress, I encourage him to post here where we can have a dialogue and actually build a new organization to make things better in our sport for both USHPA members and non-USHPA members alike.
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Re: More from Mark Webber

Postby Free » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:42 am

Let me address the money issue first. Those who've known me know that I often spend my money to help hang gliding and hang glider pilots. Here are a few examples:

- Tandem flights for UCSD Students to introduce them to the sport
- Lessons to help a pilot recover his launch confidence
- All of the Torrey Hawks expenses (including food at Second Sunday events)
- All of the US Hawks expenses (including hours of time donated to this forum)
- Full Memberships in clubs where I've only flown a few times
- Donations to other clubs/events (like the SW Texas club, for example)

So yes, I helped Sara pay for her USHPA membership. I would have done the same for you Mark, if I felt you needed it. Ask the people who really know me, and they'll tell you the same. I don't usually brag about that, but since you've brought it up, I thought I'd set the record straight.

With regard to who is the better member of USHPA, I'm not sure what your point is. I don't see USHPA as evil. Instead I just see them making stupid decisions. If they made better decisions, then I would support them more. But instead of just working on their decisions themselves, I'm looking at the root cause of those poor decisions. I think the root cause is that they're a monopoly, and so they don't have any free market feedback telling them when they're making stupid decisions. That's why I'm working to build an alternate organization that will provide CHOICE in the marketplace. That will make things better for all of us - whether we're members of USHPA or not.

Mostly, I'm disappointed that Mark continues to post on hanggliding.org where he knows that I can't respond. If Mark is really sincere about making progress, I encourage him to post here where we can have a dialogue and actually build a new organization to make things better in our sport for both USHPA members and non-USHPA members alike.



Since Mark brought it up what a nice guy you really are, and a such a wonderful benefactor in many, many ways to the hang gliding community, I'll take this opportunity to amplify the sentiment! :clap: :clap: :clap:

In the interest of secrecy (and cover up) the USHPA Corporation shot itself in the foot to alienate such a hard working, innovative, honest, open and giving pilot. The borg corporation insults all of us with any portion of any of those attributes. Some will never forget.

Warren
PS: Mark Webber, man up and sign up!
If you want to post about folks over here then come over here and speak up.
You won't be censored here..
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Re: More from Mark Webber

Postby SamKellner » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:03 pm

Free wrote: the USHPA Corporation shot itself in the foot to alienate such a hard working, innovative, honest, open and giving pilot. ..


:wave: :thumbup: :roll: :problem:

Again!
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Re: More from Mark Webber

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:09 pm

SamKellner wrote:
Free wrote: the USHPA Corporation shot itself in the foot to alienate such a hard working, innovative, honest, open and giving pilot. ..


:wave: :thumbup: :roll: :problem:

Again!

I think their feet look like swiss cheese by now ...
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