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What happened to the HGAA?

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:41 pm

An important part of building a new organization will be looking at where the HGAA has gone wrong. I'm just going to toss out a few thoughts here...

First, I think some members of the HGAA were trying to reach unrealistic goals in too short a time frame. Insurance can't happen economically until you've got a large pilot base to draw from. So the HGAA either had to team up with USHPA or it had to wait to grow its numbers. But for some reason, they seemed to think that they were going to get insurance right away without USHPA. That led them to the conclusion that anything else (like building a solid foundation) was a distraction from that short term goal. That was the excuse used to justify "Martial Law" and kicking good productive members off the team. So now it's been yet another month and they still don't have either insurance or much growth (if any) in membership. They sacrificed good people to go nowhere fast.

Second, I think the folks leading the SGAA uprising failed to recognize why it was that people were unhappy with USHPA in the first place. I think very little dissatisfaction (with USHPA) was based on economics. Instead, I think most people just wanted an organization that respected them and was dedicated to treating hang gliding fairly even when paragliding might become more profitable. Pilots were tired of USHPA simply dictating how things would be done without including the members. This is where the HGAA leadership failed completely. They became even more dictatorial and disrespectful than USHPA had ever been. Kicking people off of the forums (and off the Transition Team) was ridiculous. Imagine if the USHPA Board began voting any unpopular Directors "off the island". That would be seen as completely disrespecting the will of the people who had elected those Directors. Even USHPA hasn't gone that far. I think that was a huge mistake by the HGAA, but it may have worked out for the best since it finally stirred some of us to create the US Hawks.

Finally, I think they made some simple blunders. Moving posts, for example, was a huge mistake because it made it impossible to follow what actually happened in any debate topic or voting topic. Even to this day, people reading an HGAA topic have no idea what's been pulled out and moved to some other location. Once that happens, people lose faith in the organization itself. I also think the choice of Range voting was another simple blunder. When push comes to shove, Range voting deteriorates to plurality voting. But unlike plurality voting, it also becomes a game of "chicken" because people are officially discouraged from voting with all 100's and 0's (you'll see Jack said this many times), but that's what's in their best interests. So they're forced to choose between being "nice" and being effective. That's how Scott ended up being permanently banned from the HGAA. In order to avoid the "all 0's and all 100's" accusations, two members voted "nicely" with (1,100) votes, while Jack himself (along with KK, JB, and Dan) each voted most effectively (100,0). Those two "1's" caused Scott to be permanently banned even though the ban was only favored by 5 members and opposed by 6 members. There's a clear case where the minority ruled because of Range voting!!

With those thoughts in mind, I think we should:

1) Take our time and grow a solid foundation of happy members first.
2) Be respectful of our members and avoid "banning" people who might disagree with leadership or the majority.
3) Build on solid practices: Posts should not be moved. Voting systems should build consensus and not cause division.

Given the recent fiasco of the HGAA, I suspect it will take some time to gather support behind the US Hawks. Lots of people were so turned off by the drama that they've just accepted USHPA as the only game in town. So it will take some patience and perseverance to build this new organization. But hopefully, we'll attract the people who have that patience and perseverance and that will make us a better organization.

Finally, there's a lot to be said for "self-selection" when you have multiple organizations. I believe both USHPA and the HGAA attract certain kinds of people who make those organizations what they are - top heavy and autocratic. I'd like the US Hawks to attract people who want to work together with openness, honesty, tolerance, and respect. If we can do that, then we'll be the better organization whether we have 10 members or 10,000.
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USHpA=liars

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:31 pm

I found this on the Oz Report (Sep 15 2010, 4:54:59 pm)
Noman (with *'s added) wrote:They told us that they were going to let the special observers keep on giving hang 1's and 2's for two more years to give time to the rural area guys. Well they gave our SO a letter in the mail saying he can not give out ratings anymore. We did not even get a 1 year reprieve. They have lost the little respect i had for them with this action.I am no longer sitting on the fence,I DONT LIKE THESE GUYS. Well tough s*** for these guys,i was ready for this. Anybody need some free lessons,i got you covered. The USHGA! is driven by the hanggliding schools,not the membership. They are narrowing the door for people to learn and killing off commerce for the hanggliding industry with their actions. WHOS F**IN RUNNING THIS THING!!!!. We dont need a new organization,we need to fix the one we got!!!!. We are supposed to be adding to our numbers,not diminishing them by doing stupid sh***. USHPA ARE A BUNCH OF FU**N LIARS!. Prove me wrong,i dare you!.

My primary comment is that it's not likely to get fixed inside of USHPA. I spent over a year of my life as a USHPA Regional Director trying to change a few simple things. I was stonewalled at every attempt. There are people in power at USHPA who've got a strangle hold on everything that goes on there. If you're not in that group, you can forget making any meaningful differences.

If you want my advice, the only solution is competition. Support the HGAA and/or the US Hawks. That's the only long term solution.
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Re: What happened to the HGAA?

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:10 am

Here's the latest from the HGAA:

After silence on progress since August 27th, Dennis asked:

Dennis D on Sep 15, 2010 wrote:So, what's going on with the new org? Are we any closer to insurance, a rating system and things being on the up and up with the FAA as far as FAR103?

Status report please.

Here's the reply from John Wright a few hours later:
knumbknuts on Sep 15, 2010 wrote:Hi Dennis,

The three things we are working on right now are: faa, insurance, and policies and procedures (P&Ps)

Pilotguy has taken FAA exemptions as far as he can, given the infancy of our org... I'm not too worried about this.

We have some people working on insurance, no new news on that front.

Anadactyl is working hard on P&Ps.

I don't want to do much more until we have insurance sorted out, as we have to see what our org can do before we figure out what it's going to do.

So let's see, John Wright and Jack and JB were all up in arms that I was wasting too much of their precious time on policies and procedures (like a voting system?) and yet two months later they've decided to do nothing but work on policies and procedures? :roll:

Let's face it. The big fuss about a long voting topic wasn't about a voting topic at all. It was about who was going to control the HGAA. Heck, if the voting discussion had continued to this day, the HGAA still wouldn't have insurance or a tandem exemption. But they would have had a much better voting system than the one that allowed a minority of members to kick out Scott.

They were in such a hurry to go nowhere that they destroyed the one asset that the HGAA actually started with ... good will.
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Re: What happened to the HGAA?

Postby Free » Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:12 am

The big fuss about a long voting topic wasn't about a voting topic at all. It was about who was going to control the HGAA.


Absolutely. The skulldugery exibited by that small group of hypocrites was stunning to say the least and
I've been studying dirty politics for a long time.

They were in such a hurry to go nowhere that they destroyed the one asset that the HGAA actually started with ... good will.


The momentum was surely hampered by that awkward little power play.
Those not caught up in a "Lord of the Flies" gang mentalty are justified in being offended.
Then there is USHPA SUCKS..
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Re: What happened to the HGAA?

Postby Free » Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:42 pm

After expending a lot of energy expelling Bob and Scott from the HGAA, the revolution takes a break..


my response is born from a fear that everyone will just forget about the HGAA. Its been too quiet lately and would be so disappointed if everyone just let it die without ever really getting it off the ground. I want something that will stimulate everyone again. It seems like after that ruckus with Scott and Bob and all those members leaving, everyone was just... tired.


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Re: What happened to the HGAA?

Postby Free » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:45 pm

Jack Axaopoulos, (SG) revisits scene of the crime and attacks victims of SGAA power grab.

I do agree there is burnout from the bob/scott fiasco. They sucked a ton of energy out of people. I figured some downtime would be good....
http://www.hangglidingassociationofamerica.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=166&start=30

The new deal is pretty much the same as the old deal..
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Re: What happened to the HGAA?

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:48 am

Free wrote:Jack Axaopoulos, (SG) revisits scene of the crime and attacks victims of SGAA power grab.

I do agree there is burnout from the bob/scott fiasco. They sucked a ton of energy out of people. I figured some downtime would be good....
http://www.hangglidingassociationofamerica.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=166&start=30

The new deal is pretty much the same as the old deal..

Wow. It amazes me that Jack is still blaming Scott and I for the SGAA's problems!!! :roll:

Did it ever dawn on him that maybe some of the HGAA members were embarrassed by being associated with the public lynching? Did it ever dawn on him that he's made it obvious that the HGAA is really the SGAA and that anyone who argues with Jack is gone?

Nope. Instead he blames it all on Bob and Scott ... on a site where we're not able to speak up for ourselves. He blamed us when we were there and now he blames us when we're gone. Go ahead and charge me with one count of "Goodwin's" law, but that's exactly what Hitler did. He blamed everything on the Jews, then he exterminated them, then he still blamed them. :roll:

The only respectable thing for Jack and John Wright to do is realize they were wrong and apologize for their actions. But I'd be shocked if they ever did that. Instead, I predict they'll just keep bashing Scott and I on a forum where we can't respond. Pathetic.

Here's a challenge for Jack and John and all the other "bashers". Come to this forum where we're all free to speak. Come here and make your case where Scott can respond and where I can respond. They won't do it because they know they'd get their butts kicked with the facts. Jack and John won't fight on a fair field where they don't have the absolute power of the "ban button". Anyone who follows them should realize this.
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Wife Beater Excuse

Postby Free » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:31 am

I would be shocked if either one would come here and have a discussion that they couldn't censor.
Bullies are always cowards.




bobk wrote:
Free wrote:Jack Axaopoulos, (SG) revisits scene of the crime and attacks victims of SGAA power grab.

I do agree there is burnout from the bob/scott fiasco. They sucked a ton of energy out of people. I figured some downtime would be good....
http://www.hangglidingassociationofamerica.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=166&start=30

The new deal is pretty much the same as the old deal..

Wow. It amazes me that Jack is still blaming Scott and I for the SGAA's problems!!! :roll:

Did it ever dawn on him that maybe some of the HGAA members were embarrassed by being associated with the public lynching? Did it ever dawn on him that he's made it obvious that the HGAA is really the SGAA and that anyone who argues with Jack is gone?

Nope. Instead he blames it all on Bob and Scott ... on a site where we're not able to speak up for ourselves. He blamed us when we were there and now he blames us when we're gone. Go ahead and charge me with one count of "Goodwin's" law, but that's exactly what Hitler did. He blamed everything on the Jews, then he exterminated them, then he still blamed them. :roll:

The only respectable thing for Jack and John Wright to do is realize they were wrong and apologize for their actions. But I'd be shocked if they ever did that. Instead, I predict they'll just keep bashing Scott and I on a forum where we can't respond. Pathetic.

Here's a challenge for Jack and John and all the other "bashers". Come to this forum where we're all free to speak. Come here and make your case where Scott can respond and where I can respond. They won't do it because they know they'd get their butts kicked with the facts. Jack and John won't fight on a fair field where they don't have the absolute power of the "ban button". Anyone who follows them should realize this.
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Re: What happened to the HGAA?

Postby Free » Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:45 am

No insurance deal, then no SGAA?

Re: What do YOU want from a hang gliding organization?
by sg » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:10 pm

If we find that insurance is NOT attainable (hard to imagine), should the HGAA still exist and move forward?

If the answer is yes, then I see no reason to "wait" for the insurance question, and move forward with the remainder of the TODO list.
If the answer is no, then everything is hold until we get that answer, otherwise were committing time that could be completely thrown away at the end.


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Re: What happened to the HGAA?

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:51 am

I'd like to temporarily derail this topic to discuss how to keep the problems at the HGAA from happening here.

I had a good long phone discussion with Scott yesterday, and one of the open questions was exactly that. How can a forum like this (or the HGAA or hanggliding.org or the Oz Report) be run in a manner that's reasonably fair to all participants? It's the same question we have about governments in general.

We recognize that dictatorships are efficient since one person decides everything without the need for consultation or approval from others. And if the "dictator" is somehow omniscient and objectively fair, then it's about as good as you can get. But no dictator is omniscient, and no dictator is objectively fair. So the dictator model fails. It fails only mildly when you've got a good dictator, but it fails disastrously when you've got a bad dictator.

The bannings at hanggliding.org are good examples. Jack was judge, jury, and executioner in those bannings, and it turns out that he was flat out wrong on several counts. The most obvious case was when he mistakenly didn't correlate the times of his "warnings" with the times of the "offending posts" when he banned me. Here are the posts in the proper order (with time stamps):

1:11 pm Bob wrote: "Just like the SGAA forum."
1:25 pm Jack wrote: "This is your final warning. Take another pot shot at me, no matter how slight, and youre gone."
[-- Bob was silent on the matter --]
2:04 pm Jack wrote: "=== BANNED ==="

But here's how Jack told the story:

Jack wrote: "This is your final warning. Take another pot shot at me, no matter how slight, and youre gone."
Bob wrote: "Just like the SGAA forum."
Jack wrote: "=== BANNED ==="

He either mistakenly or intentionally put the events out of sequence so it appears that I was warned and then defied the warning. That's simply not true. Now if Jack were a "perfect dictator", then he'd realize his mistake, apologize, and repair the damage. But he's not a "perfect dictator" and I suspect that his pride and/or his ulterior motives are keeping him from fixing this obvious mistake.

So the question here (for the US Hawks forums) is how can we keep that same kind of thing from happening on this forum? Of course, I'm tempted to say that "I would never do such a thing, so everyone should just trust me" :roll: . But I'm not the "perfect dictator" either. So what kinds of processes can we use to ensure that the US Hawks forums don't succumb to that same kind of abuse from me or any other moderators on this forum?

It's really an open question, but I think one solution comes from the wisdom of our nation's founders (and even those before them). The "jury of one's peers" is about the best technology we've invented for fairness at this time. But even that has to be more than a "kangaroo court" as they held on the HGAA forum. It has to include "due process" so everyone has a chance to make their case, and to question their accusers. The burden of proof has to reside with the prosecution. None of that was done in the HGAA "witch trials", and as a result, at least two good people were removed and several others either left or lost interest.

If we want the US Hawks to be a better organization, we'll have to address this important question. All sincere comments are welcome.
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