[Bob Kuczewski]

Since this is set up to be a trial Board of Directors and not the real thing and as long as I can set conditions like, not having to board a commercial flight to meet with other pretend directors in person I will throw my imaginary hat into the tenuous ring.

All travel will be at the speed of the internet.

Welcome aboard Bill!!!    

To avoid any appearance of impropriety and avoid any suspicion of personal bias I pledge, to possibly many imaginary constituents, I will abstain from any votes concerning pigs.

I don't know if that will work. It appears that someone at the Gliderport now has a pet pig (no joke) running around there. I guess we'll have to excuse you if that topic ever comes before the Board.

[wingspan33]

My take on the following:

Lots of very good points Bill...

The reason that the U$hPA members have to rely on the OZ report, HG(dot)org, and the US Hawks for shared knowledge and not find it at a U$hPA forum is at least two fold. Liability and control of the membership.

Right on both counts. The control aspect includes not having to answer reasonable questions asked by the members ... like "Why can't we see how our Directors are voting?" and "How can we know whether we want to vote for a particular Director if we have no idea what they support or oppose at USHPA?"

I go along with all the above. In (once upon a time) planning for the HGAA, I envisioned a forum like web site where each "Regional Director" had their own Forum. They could make announcements and EVEN ask the pilots in their area for their ideas/opinions on various relevant topics.

Association members should also be able to "see" the BOD voting processes as they take place. Secret ballets are fine for the individual citizen (i.e., member) voter, but (elected) Corporate Directors have a duty to represent the interests of their constituency - they should not be voting in "secret". That's a recipe that can lead to the corruption of representational leadership.

It can also "hide" lazy Directors who simply vote to go along with committee decisions (and those committee decisions may only be the consistently affirmatively-voted-on idea(s) of that committee's chairman!). Without transparency the possibility exists that only a few people actually direct the course of an association made up of hundreds of otherwise interested/invested parties.

If the RGSA had never held a US National Hang Gliding event years back we never would have gotten into the site insurance nightmare that has persisted for decades since. No other sport to my knowledge is required to carry insurance while using the same land in the Lincoln National Forest, New Mexico. (New Mexico is located in the United States and is not in Mexico.)

The requirement to have insurance - in advance - for things that we might do to hurt other people goes against the notions of equality and self-reliance that were the cornerstones of this country.

I have to say that I differ on this one. Unfortunately, lawyers and insurance companies NEED to make sure their clients (even Non-Profit Corporations) are protected from unforeseen liabilities. Accidents and mistakes happen, and if damage is done sometimes the injured party looks to be reimbursed for their losses and/or the cost to treat their injuries. So, in the above case, regarding a USHGA National Competition taking place on National Forrest land. The USHGA had to, at least, ensure its own financial security by making sure USHPA Site Insurance was in place.

BTW - I am certain that "Insurance" existed back to well before our country came to be. In fact, Loyd's of London began (as I recall) by "insuring" that ships would complete their trade related journeys and deliver their goods. If a ship was lost at sea they paid out for the damages to the effected parties.

One of the ways to avoid such involvement is to "self insure". But that means having a good bit of $ in a bank account - ready to be paid out in the case of a claim being made.

One discussion I would like to see hashed out among the practicing directors is how to keep the US Hawks Forum from falling prey to the same legal (censored) concerns that seem to be plaguing the U$hPA.

We're already doing one thing right now. I'm not sure if I agree that money is the root of ALL evil, but it certainly accounts for a sizeable chunk of it. The Torrey Hawks have avoided all kinds of problems by simply not accepting money in any form.

This links with the above topic insomuch that an organization that has no money, has no monetary assets to seize in the case of some claimed liability. Unfortunately, if a legal corporation is sued, the corporation president (let's say) can't act as the group's (free) legal representative. The law requires that a REAL lawyer do the legal, in court, representation. So, . . . if a group decides to incorporate and possible or potential liability is in the picture, . . . Then very REAL money has to exist (somehow and somewhere) to cover (possible, potential, likely) liability issues.

The necessary dynamic involved in the day to day life of a Hang Gliding Sport Association just about makes claims of liability a sure thing (sadly ).

Should we discuss crashes in great detail only in the free speech zone where we indemnify ourselves by saying that the US Hawks neither supports nor approves of the content in the free speech zone?

Maybe we could discuss carnage over on Tad’s website where I’m sure we would receive a complete volunteer review of what was done wrong by any participant with precise, in depth, analysis of any stupidity or brain dead idiocy being displayed.

You're certainly a creative thinker Bill!!   

Considering Mark Forbes' quoted comments, I would suggest that any newly formed HG related NFP Corporation simply maintain an "informal relationship" with an officially unrelated web site where such information could be published in a free and open manner. Hiding even trivial details about an accident (as the USHPA now does) contradicts the whole concept of learning from your/my/our aviation related mistakes and accidents.

But we should realize, all things connected with an aviation (HG) related accident may be seen as attempting to not trigger a land mine on which you've just accidentally stepped.

Listing, in detail, all the known facts connected with an accident can end up pointing a finger right back at the Organization creating the Accident Report. "Gee, it looks like this first year pilot's Instructor (who was certified by our Association) allowed him/her to fly in conditions beyond their Novice skill level!" The HG Corporation then has potential liability for not better "testing/certifying" its Instructor candidates.

The point being we should not allow at the US Hawks any suppression of accident reports solely out of concern for the bottom line of an insurance company. We pilots have a greater concern for our safety that places an insurance company’s concern in second place or lower.

I agree with that. It's too bad that the current legal structure forces us to make such a choice. Open reporting of accident information should not be at the peril of financial loss.

No disagreement here. But there are forces that are in opposition (see above) and that are hard to isolate from each other. It could be that in our wanderings, we will begin to realize why the USHPA has taken its current "form".

Imagine a curled up hedgehog!

see: http://www.africansafarico.com/wp-conte ... gehog7.jpg

Self Protection Mode in the extreme!

I wonder if the case would be the same now if many big bags of densely packed cloth had not been allowed in the "backdoor" ~25 years ago?

[Bob Kuczewski]

It's Official!!!

As of today, February 16th, 2015,
  We Hereby Establish the
    US Hawks Trial Board of Directors
      consisting of:

• Joe Faust - California
• Sam Kellner - Texas
• Scott Wise - New York
• Bill Cummings - New Mexico
• Bob Kuczewski - California

P.S. Thanks to everyone who participated in the discussions leading up to the first US Hawks Board. Thanks also to those who considered joining the Board but were unable to do so at this time. One of the goals for this first Board will be to work out the US Hawks "Constitution" which will establish mechanisms for elections and expanding the number of Board members beyond the original 5. I hope you'll consider participating at that time.