[Bill Cummings]

Terms of Service discussion.
This is a practice run. (like a mock, moot, court or trial) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mock_trial

At this date we do not have a membership elected Board of Directors only volunteers.

Until the US Hawks membership elects an official Board of Directors all final solutions by the volunteer board are advisory in nature.

Preamble:
It has been brought up that the US Hawks website moderator should have early on taken down posts that allegedly violated the posted boiler plate “Terms of Service” provided by phpBB Group.

What ever decision a moderator comes to, removing a post or allowing a post, it will be a rare thing to see everyone in agreement with the moderators decision.

This was evidenced recently at the OZ report when Davis Straub took down an entire thread when a complaint was made about content.
Whether or not IP information has to be provided to the individual allegedly being attacked Davis may be holding out for a subpoena so we will have to wait and see.
If it should go to court Davis Straub will be able to say, “There was a complaint of improper content so I took it down.” Can anyone think of a better defense?

Bob K. was reluctant to remove posts in the interest of free speech preservation.
Free speech a birth right recognized in this country and protected from any governmental laws to the contrary by the first amendment to the Constitution.
At the end of the day we see laws about hate speech, yelling “FIRE,” in a theater and so on.

The actions of a Trial Board of Directors should not focus on whether Davis or Bob was right or wrong but rather WHAT is right or wrong under current laws.

What decision and advice by the Trial Board, that will be on record here, would best preserve the US Hawks Hang Gliding Association.
_______.
END OF PREAMBLE.

“ Oregon State Law § 166.065 Harassment

(1) A person commits the crime of harassment if the person intentionally:
(a) Harasses or annoys another person by:
. . .
(B) Publicly insulting such other person by abusive words . . . in a
manner intended and likely to provoke a violent response . . .

(2)(a) A person is criminally liable for harassment if the person knowingly permits any telephone or electronic device under the persons control to be used in violation of
subsection (1) of this section.

(3) Harassment is a Class B misdemeanor [a crime - involving possible jail time].

“By accessing “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association” (hereinafter “we”, “us”, “our”, “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association”, “http://ushawks.org/forum”), you agree to be legally bound by the following terms. If you do not agree to be legally bound by all of the following terms then please do not access and/or use “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association”. We may change these at any time and we’ll do our utmost in informing you, though it would be prudent to review this regularly yourself as your continued usage of “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association” after changes mean you agree to be legally bound by these terms as they are updated and/or amended.

Our forums are powered by phpBB (hereinafter “they”, “them”, “their”, “phpBB software”, “www.phpbb.com”, “phpBB Group”, “phpBB Teams”) which is a bulletin board solution released under the “General Public License” (hereinafter “GPL”) and can be downloaded from http://www.phpbb.com. The phpBB software only facilitates internet based discussions, the phpBB Group are not responsible for what we allow and/or disallow as permissible content and/or conduct. For further information about phpBB, please see: https://www.phpbb.com/.

You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any laws be it of your country, the country where “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association” is hosted or International Law. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned, with notification of your Internet Service Provider if deemed required by us. The IP address of all posts are recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree that “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association” have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should we see fit. As a user you agree to any information you have entered to being stored in a database. While this information will not be disclosed to any third party without your consent, neither “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association” nor phpBB shall be held responsible for any hacking attempt that may lead to the data being compromised.”

(Bob if you want to tear me a new 1 please post a link here taking your reply back to the Lakeview site. From here on I will do the same rather than clutter this thread with a peripheral drivel not pertaining to “Terms of Service.” Let‘s conduct all sidebar discussion over there. Please.)

[Rick Masters]

The things you mention are not really a problem. Bob takes care of that.
The real problem, to me, is there is no place to start. People obviously think a forum can work like a wiki. It can't.
A forum is more like a popularity contest. This is not a criticism, but a fact: On a forum, the most vocal element drowns out or sidetracks the most relevant.
Topics have no genuine order of relevance. There is no table of contents - only 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 and so on.
There is no way to search or reorder. Everything eventually becomes lost. The situation is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is that few recognize it.
To attempt to build something on a sand foundation is futile.

[Bill Cummings]

The things you mention are not really a problem. Bob takes care of that.
The real problem, to me, is there is no place to start. People obviously think a forum can work like a wiki. It can't.
A forum is more like a popularity contest. This is not a criticism, but a fact: On a forum, the most vocal element drowns out or sidetracks the most relevant.
Topics have no genuine order of relevance. There is no table of contents - only 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 and so on.
There is no way to search or reorder. Everything eventually becomes lost. The situation is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is that few recognize it.
To attempt to build something on a sand foundation is futile.

Side bar link to Lakeview concerning the value of a wiki.
  http://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1616&start=50#p10202

[Bob Kuczewski]

First, Thanks to Bill Cummings for starting (and hopefully "chairing") this topic. As Bill mentions, the Terms of Service that we have on this forum are what came with the software when I installed it, and I haven't really reviewed it since then. As we're continuing to grow, it's good for us to take a look at them and decide what rules we want to establish for this forum. I suspect that will - to a large extent - define what the US Hawks will become in the near future. As the current "owner" (sometimes called "dictator") of the US Hawks, I am hoping that the decisions that are arrived at in this topic are compatible with my own view of the US Hawks future. But if they're not, then it's good to know that up front so we can decide where to go from there.

The things you mention are not really a problem. Bob takes care of that.
The real problem, to me, is there is no place to start. People obviously think a forum can work like a wiki. It can't.
A forum is more like a popularity contest. This is not a criticism, but a fact: On a forum, the most vocal element drowns out or sidetracks the most relevant.
Topics have no genuine order of relevance. There is no table of contents - only 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 and so on.
There is no way to search or reorder. Everything eventually becomes lost. The situation is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is that few recognize it.
To attempt to build something on a sand foundation is futile.

You're right that a Wiki is much more appropriate for some kinds of content, and I appreciate your patience until I can install one. I will add that the problem with overly vocal elements drowning or sidetracking relevant information is more a matter of policy than format. Someone with lots of time on their hands can drown or overwhelm either a forum or a Wiki unless there are policies and mechanisms in place to keep that from happening. Bill made the following comment in the Lakeview Hawks topic (see his link above), but I've quoted part of it here because it addresses your comment:

Rick,
I thought wiki had some number of louder posters that pushed aside the work that you and Joe put up?

If I have that correct then even a wiki would have serious limitations for advancing a goal.

How then can any collaborative work be accomplished on the internet?

Bill's final question is really at the heart of this topic. What policies (Terms of Service) will allow us to accomplish a collaborative effort here (whether for a Wiki or a Forum)? For example, we do have a "Blog policy" that topics in the Blog forum belong to the person who started that topic. So they can decide if they want others to post there or not. They have the final say on the removal of any posts they don't like. The forum itself doesn't address or enforce that "Blog" policy. It's addressed by our common agreement and enforced by me moving any offending posts whenever requested by the Blog owner. The same is true with the club forums. The same would likely be true for a Wiki as well. But that's what we're here to discuss. I think all of that (even a future Wiki policy) would fall under our Terms of Service.

By the way, since the Wiki topic has come up before, and I know it's important to you Rick, can you give me a time frame that you'd like to see it implemented? The translated version of that question is: "How long do you think you can limp along with what we have before you throw up your hands and leave?". I don't want to sidetrack this discussion, but I'd like to know for my own task scheduling how much time I might have to get it done. Thanks.

Finally, one of the really big questions we have to answer (closely related to the Terms of Service) is who do we want in this organization? We're trying to build an alternative national hang gliding association. Do we want people in this organization who don't want an alternative national hang gliding association? Do we want people who hate hang gliding? Do we want people who hate the US Hawks? And if we don't, then how can we structure our Terms of Service to get what we do want?

[Rick Masters]

How long do you think you can limp along

I'm not the one limping. I'm not comfortable posting reports because reports get updated and what seemed to be information turns into misinformation and I have no way to correct it.

wiki had some number of louder posters that pushed aside the work that you and Joe put up?

Not a problem with decent moderators. US Hawks needs to be able to post pages in outline form that chosen people (i.e., directors) can modify, expand, organize and update.

who do we want in this organization?

The most important person is the uber-moderator. There is no substitute. We can give advice to the uber-moderator, but in the end it is up to him to make the call. Once things are running smoothly, that task can be delegated. But for now, the burden and opportunity is all on BobK. That's not a bad thing. I'm actually pretty impressed.

[Bill Cummings]

Rick, you were correct with your analogy of, and I quote you now, (Rick Masters.) “To attempt to build something on a sand foundation is futile.”

I can see a needed course change on this Terms of Service topic.

You reminded me of that same lesson I learned as a boy in junior high school. Well actually is was during the summertime at the swimming beach.

In “Mission Impossible” stealth mode I had started construction of an innocent looking sand castle immediately behind the elevated chair on the lifeguard tower. The hot chick lifeguard, two years older than me, named Mary, sitting in the chair was wearing a wrinkle free, shrink wrapped, red, one piece, swimsuit that she had grown out of last summer.

I was sure she wanted me to pinch her on the behind otherwise why would she have taken this lifeguard job and dressed down like she had.

Unfortunately the base I constructed and stood on was not near as firm as the one I was looking at. She was and remained out of my reach.

However my friend found an ice-cream container lid that we sailed past her to annoy her for, “playing hard to get.” A few years later she or someone else invented the Frisbee.

Now I’m thinking that rather than build something on a sand foundation we simply toss some ideas back and forth whether or not to adhere to the Terms of Service already in place or individually nominate changes to be voted on.
The vote should be modified so as not to come up with a five way tie like happened with our previous “Test Vote.”
I or someone should have some idea that will work because, speaking for myself now, I’m positive that I’m smarter than I look.

[wingspan33]

I've been busy the last few days (since say last Thursday!) and only had a glimmer as to what direction things were headed. This thread is Great as a topic of discussion (for a trial BOD), but Rick's comment about beginning to build a foundation on sand may be seen as more critical to address. But then this topic of discussion gets derailed. ( ? ? ? )

I have suggestions about such formative discussions being done in "public". I feel the result/conclusion of intelligent (trial BOD) discussions MUST be made public - but the nitty gritty back and forth details?

And here's one that strikes me in the immediate case: I truly want to participate in the trial BOD or else I wouldn't have volunteered. But, I sometimes become involved in other activities and, as a result, am "blind" to the fact that a trial BOD meeting is taking place here. I would therefore suggest that there be a set time during which discussions are held. In other words, an online Trial BOD Meeting time.

I'm also reminded of Robert's Rules of Order [ http://www.rulesonline.com/ ]. I'm only somewhat familiar with them but also have no IDEA how they may be adapted to an online discussion (in a forum format). I do know that in "real life meetings" they can be very useful.

Finally, I've talked with Bob about doing online "conference calls" where we can all see and talk with each other - and hold much-closer-to-real meetings.

Enough of my two cents. Now, . . . talk among yourselves. . . ; - )

PS - I do want to talk about the moderating issue and how abuse is dealt with. But it's 1:30 am east coast time and I'm tired (this afternoon I drove 80 miles to a 3 1/2 hour dental appointment then back home 80 miles in a (mild?) snow storm).

[wingspan33]

. . . speaking for myself now, I’m positive that I’m smarter than I look.

Bill, as tired as I am I can't resist! Hmmmmmm. The following (extreme?) options exist. You either look VERY smart and are, therefore, a genius. Or, you look as if you've inherited Down syndrome but are lucky to have a few more IQ points than may otherwise be expected.

By my reading (and I don't believe I have ever seen your picture) I'd guess you're at least moderately intelligent in appearance.

[Bob Kuczewski]

I just wanted to note that the Terms of Service are currently under review by the Trial US Hawks Board of Directors.

[Bill Cummings]

Edit
Let me get back to you all on this/