US Hawks Hang Gliding Association

Bobfly wrote:Bob had potential. But he's too much of "my way or the hiway" type of guy.

Sorry Bobfly, but banning people for disagreeing is the definition of "my way or the hiway".

I will stand my ground and I will discuss a matter, and discuss a matter, and then discuss it some more. But I've never tossed anyone off of a forum (told them to "hit the highway") for disagreeing with me. So you are incorrect to say I'm a "my way or the highway" type of guy. That phrase ("my way or the highway") would be more appropriately applied to those who have actually kicked people off of their forums (or their organizations) because they couldn't stand up to a fair argument. Here are three examples from my own experience:

1. Davis kicked me off of the Oz Report when I asked legitimate questions of USHPA Regional Director Candidate Bill Helliwell. Davis didn't like the questions and he knew Bill had no good answers so he simply removed my posts and banned me when I protested.

2. SG and KK kicked me off of the HGAA forum without any due process because I challenged their iron fisted actions in that organization. They later got a "rubber stamp" from the Transition Team (after disallowing various other members) in what amounted to a Kangaroo Court where I was limited to a single 500 word statement ... but they could post as much as they wanted.

3. SG kicked me off hanggliding.org when I complained about his abuse of power on the HGAA. I dared to call it the "SGAA" and I guess that was "too close to home" so he banned me from hanggliding.org for that comment.

Now who are the "my way or the highway" people in these examples? In all three cases, I was banned because those people had no good arguments to the points I was making. They were all cowards and used the ban button because they couldn't stand up to a fair argument.

Bob,

I don't like that you were banned, their justification for it is bulls***. But hey, f*** 'em. Lets FLY!

They were all cowards and used the ban button because they couldn't stand up to a fair argument.

Every banning that I have experienced has also had an element of cowardice.
Banning opposing opinions is always the law of the lowest common denominator.
Discussions and ideas are limited to the base level intellect of those with the power of the mouse click banning.
The group as a whole suffers those limitations.

So what is being accomplished at SGAA since they got rid of their 'excuse' for moving forward?
I'm not seeing much of anything happening there since they have been freed of the burden of differing opinions.

Also, why hasn't Jack A. (aka Speed Glider) yet unburdened himself of the old Torrey Hawks forum?
He whines about how much it cost him. He should give it up so he can devote more energy to the SGAA.

Free wrote:Every banning that I have experienced has also had an element of cowardice.
Banning opposing opinions is always the law of the lowest common denominator.
Discussions and ideas are limited to the base level intellect of those with the power of the mouse click banning.
The group as a whole suffers those limitations.

Absolutely right. In some ways, we're actually losing our free speech with the proliferation of electronic communication. There was a time when you could stand in the public square and have just as much right to speak as anyone else ... and it cost nothing. You couldn't be hauled off and made to "disappear" just because someone didn't like what you were saying.

Free wrote:So what is being accomplished at SGAA since they got rid of their 'excuse' for moving forward?
I'm not seeing much of anything happening there since they have been freed of the burden of differing opinions.

You hit that one out of the park!! Thanks.

Free wrote:Also, why hasn't Jack A. (aka Speed Glider) yet unburdened himself of the old Torrey Hawks forum?
He whines about how much it cost him. He should give it up so he can devote more energy to the SGAA.

Jack wants to control what people can and can't say as much as possible. Holding onto that forum gives him more control. Giving it up would give him less control. I think it's as simple as that. Jack overstepped his bounds by banning you from the Torrey Hawks Forum without at least checking with the Torrey Hawks officers. He did the same thing on the HGAA. That's telling us all something. Those who are paying attention will see it, and those who aren't paying attention won't.

Here's the problem ... what percentage of the people will actually pay attention and dig into the facts (on any issue) and what percentage will go blindly along with popular opinion?

Yup, that's what I thought. We're in big trouble.

Helllllp! I've been MODERATED!

Bob, I liked my post better before it was moderated. Sheesh, how often do I ever get to drop the F-BOMB? Sheesh! You hang glidin' forum admins are a tough bunch, never letting me have any fun. Just for that, I *AM* going to get a Sport 2.

Dennis wrote:Helllllp! I've been MODERATED!

Actually, it's something that I really hate to do ... especially given my stand on free speech!! I can hear the critics laughing already.

Dennis wrote:Bob, I liked my post better before it was moderated. Sheesh, how often do I ever get to drop the F-BOMB? Sheesh! You hang glidin' forum admins are a tough bunch, never letting me have any fun.

I don't mind the "f***" stuff too much (even though we all read it for what it is), but the full raw text is just a little too far over the line. With your permission, I'd like to remove the comment (the note in parentheses) and just leave the stars as if that's what you'd typed. Is that an acceptable compromise?

My goal on this forum (and we'll see how long it can last) is to be respectful of what people want to say. Hopefully everyone can be respectful in return and we can make progress. That may be a fantasy, but it's an approach that I'd like to try.

Dennis wrote:Just for that, I *AM* going to get a Sport 2.

Well, I still think you'd be more confident in a Falcon, but as long as you post the videos of your landings ... I don't mind.

Really, I'd like to start thinking about what we might realistically accomplish on this forum. That should probably include examining what has gone wrong with the HGAA (and USHPA). I think I'll start a new topic, and I hope you'll join me.

On hanggliding.org, Sep 15, 2010 ...

jointstrike wrote:The ozreport is promoted as a ezine which immediately infers a degree of accountability about what is published and how the public forum would be moderated, but when the proverbial hits the fan the owner then comes out and says autocracy is fine because it is his own personal blog.

Sounds vaguely familiar. Where have I heard something like that before? It reminds me of some forum moderator saying that he should be treated just like anyone else, but then says the forum is his "personal living room". Gosh, where have I heard that?

jointstrike wrote:Basically he can do what he wants in any manner he feels inclined, people's post are censored and even deleted, and on occasion members are censured.
I got banned over there too for nothing more than rebutting a personal attack by Herr Straub. My only crime was a diference of opinion which I made every attempt to resolve diplomatically. Straight away I was pilloried. Heavens above I was exposed to public derision :sleep: and subjected to a merciless attack by the Kaiser himself.

Moderators who reach for the "Ban" button in those cases are demonstrating that they have no better argument and their pride is too great to simply concede that they were wrong.

jointstrike wrote:This moderator has said no personal attacks on scare because he is a member here. Hopefully he will be impressed by our civility and diplomacy.

Just don't dare use the phrase "SGAA" on hanggliding.org. SG very sensitive to that comment and it might get you banned.

bobk wrote:

Dennis wrote:Helllllp! I've been MODERATED!

Actually, it's something that I really hate to do ... especially given my stand on free speech!! I can hear the critics laughing already.

Dennis wrote:Bob, I liked my post better before it was moderated. Sheesh, how often do I ever get to drop the F-BOMB? Sheesh! You hang glidin' forum admins are a tough bunch, never letting me have any fun.

I don't mind the "f***" stuff too much (even though we all read it for what it is), but the full raw text is just a little too far over the line. With your permission, I'd like to remove the comment (the note in parentheses) and just leave the stars as if that's what you'd typed. Is that an acceptable compromise?

My goal on this forum (and we'll see how long it can last) is to be respectful of what people want to say. Hopefully everyone can be respectful in return and we can make progress. That may be a fantasy, but it's an approach that I'd like to try.

Dennis wrote:Just for that, I *AM* going to get a Sport 2.

Well, I still think you'd be more confident in a Falcon, but as long as you post the videos of your landings ... I don't mind.

Really, I'd like to start thinking about what we might realistically accomplish on this forum. That should probably include examining what has gone wrong with the HGAA (and USHPA). I think I'll start a new topic, and I hope you'll join me.

Heya Bob,

Eh, edit my post all ya want, I don't pay much attention to what I say, so, you might write something really great and I'll think it was me who said it. Win/Win

Of course I'll post the video of me landing the sport 2, Dennis The Human Lawn Dart!

As far as what happened with USHPA over the years, what has gone awry with the HGAA and such, it will never make sense to me, IMHO, things are easiest done simple, to me, it's a simple matter, keep things simple and they just work.

Dennis wrote:Heya Bob,

Eh, edit my post all ya want, I don't pay much attention to what I say, so, you might write something really great and I'll think it was me who said it. Win/Win

Great. I put in a few asterisks. Some forum software does that automatically, so I hope that's OK.

Dennis wrote:As far as what happened with USHPA over the years, what has gone awry with the HGAA and such, it will never make sense to me, IMHO, things are easiest done simple, to me, it's a simple matter, keep things simple and they just work.

It never made sense to me either. The only thing I can imagine is that there were hidden agendas in play all along. I figure SG must have been thinking about starting a national hang gliding association for a long long time. I think he already knew exactly what he wanted to do and how he wanted to do it. I hadn't read his blueprints when I came along to start up the HGAA. So every room that I wanted to build was the wrong size and in the wrong place according to his own master plan. He didn't want an independent board deciding what to do. He just wanted puppets to do it his way. And now that's what he's got. It was my mistake to allow him to "give" us a brand new forum ... that he controlled. That forum ended up being the Trojan Horse that hijacked my original vision of the HGAA.

But in the end, that's actually fine. There are people who will want an organization run like USHPA. There are people who will want an organization run like the HGAA. There are people who will want an organization run like the US Hawks. I'll be happy with the people who find their way to this forum and want to build an organization that respects its members ... all 10 of them so far.

By the way, there is a favor that you could do for the US Hawks. You could add a nice comment and a link to the US Hawks web site (ushawks.org) in your signature line on other forums. I had done that for the HGAA when I was still posting on hanggliding.org, so I don't think anyone could object. It might be something as simple as:

Join the US Hawks at ushawks.org

Every little bit helps!

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=19108&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=48

knumbknuts Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:03 am wrote:Dennis,

You are operating under the assumption that SG and I behaved in ways symmetrical in spirit, quality, and sanity to Bob's.

He crossed lines that neither SG or I did.

There is absolutely no reasoning with Bob. You either accede to his will, fight against it, or avoid him entirely. I'm taking door #3.

Bob is a bully. He is not a meet-me-at-the-bike-racks-sixth-period type bully. He's a I-will-wear-you-down-and-insult-you-and-slander-and-make-nasty-implications-about-you-as-if-they-were-fact-and-drag-you-down-into-the-mud-with-me type. SG and I stood up to him, quite consciously, and at personal cost.

Having paid that price, why would we not want to reap the rewards of peace?

John Wright disappoints me even further. A necessary ingredient for bullying is to hold a position of strength (or at least perceived strength) over those who are being bullied. Let's look at the facts:

Fact: Jack and John kicked Bob and Scott off of the HGAA forum with no due process at all.
Fact: John held a "kangaroo court" where he used more words in just one of his posts than Bob was allowed for his entire defense.
Fact: John used his position of power and trust to destroy the entire Torrey Hawks web site (torreyhawks.org).
Fact: Jack used his position of power and trust to kick people off the TorreyHawksForum without consulting with any officers of the club.
Fact: Jack is now threatening to destroy all the posts on the TorreyHawksForum without allowing them to be transferred to the new forum.
Fact: Jack and John both continue to make accusations on a popular forum where they know Bob can't respond.

Jack and John have always held all the cards and all the power. It's interesting in retrospect how quickly Jack stepped up to "donate" a forum to the Torrey Hawks which he now uses to hold us hostage. It's interesting in retrospect how quickly Jack stepped up to "donate" another forum for the HGAA which he now uses to control that organization as well. Be careful of anything Jack gives you because it comes with some pretty heavy strings attached.

And yet after all that, John calls me a bully and a slanderer on a forum where I can't respond. Well John, how about meeting me at the US Hawks bike rack for a little discussion where you and Jack can't control what's said? You can bring Jack as well if he's got what it takes to stand up to a discussion without holding his finger over the ban button.

Like I said, John Wright disappoints me more with each post.