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 Post subject: Re: Joe Faust
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:54 am 
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Frank Colver wrote:
I did and he deleted it.


If at first you don't succeed ... try, try again.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Faust
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:59 am 
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There's no point, it's a wasted effort because nobody will see it and it's never going to change Jack's mind. He probably has an alert when Joe's name in mentioned so he can instantly delete before anyone sees it.

Frank


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Faust
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:25 pm 
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Frank Colver wrote:
There's no point, it's a wasted effort ...


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When you allow your expectations of others actions to change your own course ... you've given them the ultimate power to control you.

If Jack shuts you up with a threat, then he wins at no cost to him.
If Jack shuts you up with a ban, then he wins at a tremendous cost to him.

Jack has the power either way, and he will likely shut you up either way (as he seems to have effectively done). But if you make reasonable statements, and he bans you, then you'll shine the spotlight on the corruption of that forum. Even if he deletes all of your posts, you can save copies to document them here.

If you look at the daily posting numbers of both forums, I believe we are getting close to the "tipping point" where people are going to start preferring what we're building at the U.S. Hawks over the tyranny of hanggliding.org (and USHPA). We are growing a synergy of efforts with people independently creating new organizatios (like US Hawks, USHGRS, and others yet to be announced) and people independently freeing flying sites (Dockweiler, Ed Levin, and Point of the Mountain) and people joining a Board of Directors that's starting to resemble a "Who's Who" of hang gliding.

There's an unfortunate cloud of confusion over some of Jack's past atrocities, and some people can claim ignorance of whether those abuses were justified. But there's no confusion about what Jack did to Joe Faust. If we don't take a firm stand against this, then it only emboldens Jack to do it again.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Faust
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:54 pm 
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I could go through the exercise of repeatedly posting to allow Joe back in HG.org with jack repeatedly deleting them (no one has seen them) until he gets disgusted enough to ban me from the forum. I'm banned, probably without any public announcement, and absolutely nothing has been accomplished by my actions.

I use the HG.org forum to communicate with others with advice and information. Like the most recent about opening a new flying site. If I get booted off, I want it to count for something, not just for meaningless repetition of a previous statement that only Jack sees. I made my appeal for Joe's reinstatement to the forum and hopefully a few saw it before Jack discovered it. Already banned people can't do that!

I doubt that anyone would see the repetitions if I posted them. Jack wins at no cost anyway.

Frank


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Faust
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:12 am 
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It's a good thing that Rosa Parks didn't have that attitude:

NOT Rosa Parks wrote:
I could go through the exercise of trying to keep my seat, but I'll be hauled off to jail and no one would notice. I'll be in jail, probably facing an expensive fine, and absolutely nothing will have been accomplished by my actions.

I use the bus to get to work and accomplish things. If I get booted off, how will I get around? I made my appeal to keep my seat and the driver said no.

No one will care if I can't ride the bus. You can't fight city hall.


Frank, if a dozen of us were at Dockweiler, and one of the group invited everyone over to his house for dinner, but said that Frank wasn't welcome ... do you think I would go? Do you think Joe Faust would go?

You know the answer. It would be: "NO". You know we'd both say:

     "If Frank's not welcome, then we're not welcome."

And you know we'd both advise everyone else to join us.

I'm sorry, but I really can't believe you suddenly care so much about being on hanggliding.org that you would bite your tongue as you watch your friend be mistreated.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Faust
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:12 pm 
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Rosa Parks was very visible and created a buss boycott among blacks. If the driver (read Jack) had been able to hide her forever nothing would have changed. On HG.org he has the power to do that and nobody can change that because it's his forum.

A constant repetition of my Joe Faust request would not be seen by anyone except Jack and eventually he would have the pleasure of banning me without my having helped any to correct the situation. I will not uselessly get myself banned just so you can add to your list of "Banned Brothers" When I get banned it has to count for something and at this point in time I don't know how that will come about, since Jack controls who sees all postings. I will not walk out on the battlefield and just stand there waiting to get shot. It's only on forums like his one that the HG public can be made aware as to what is going on over at HG.org and we are doing that "in spades"!

Please note that I am not going to the weekly "Wednesday through Sunday party" at Dockweiler from which you have been "banned" but I could still fly with other friends. I resent you implying that I would attend a party from which you have been banned.

I have made efforts "behind the scenes" to try and get you back into USHPA and you are not aware of those efforts. When I work on your behalf I have to do it on my own terms not yours. I would expect that of your other friends as well.

Red told me you were coming down on him for not getting himself banned from HG.org. You need to not rag on your friends for their decisions. I've been told that you have come down on other friends who were working in your behalf but you thought they should be doing more or some other thing. I don't know who they were but I was told that they walked away after you got mad at them. There are a lot of us who want to correct your USHPA expulsion. When you said at the last Otto meet that you wouldn't join USHPA now, if you could, I thought: "why am I doing this"? Fortunately you told me later that you didn't mean what you said and I knew you were under a lot of strain at the meet and I understood your frustration.

If HG.org is as useless as you and Rick say then Joe Faust shouldn't have been posting on it in the first place, just as you say I shouldn't be posting on it. I can walk away from HG.org because even now I hardly ever post there but once in a while i think I can help someone with their question. It would be ideal if everybody from HG.org moved to US Hawks then we could communicate with the whole hang gliding crowd here. Maybe that day will come and I can share my knowledge and experience in one place - US Hawks. Until then, or until Jack says I can't, I will share that knowledge on two forums. Mostly here but a little there.

Frank

Ratings:
USHPA - H3
US Hawks - H3
USHGRS - H3
Raven who couldn't reach my altitude thermal soaring at Soboba - Damn, must be an H10 above me.


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Faust
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:00 pm 
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Frank and BobK, I find your constant frustrations with hanggliding.org very entertaining.
Just because I don't post there, please don't be dissuaded from doing so.
With each important post you make, that is altered or removed by JA, he digs a deeper hole.
Everyone can see this hole. Everyone knows they can trip and fall into it.
Sooner or later, pilots have to ask themselves, "Just what is going on?"
That's good.
But for you, it's bad. Particularly if you carry on too long.
Make your point.
Get out.
Make your own forum better than Jack's or Straub's.
It doesn't need much. Maybe a little flash.
Take the leap. Make the Hawks a contender.
Make the USHPA doppelganger sites irrelevant.

You know, if I say you all are wasting your time posting on HG.org or OZReport,
and then Joe or someone goes ahead and posts there - that doesn't reflect on me.
It reflects on Joe or whomever. Maybe he'll accomplish something. Maybe he'll just get kicked in the shins.
Go ahead and be masochists. They want something to laugh at.
It's all about entertainment.
It's not about hang gliding.

If you want hang gliding, think on this.
The greatest flying sites in America are free.
Thousands exist under state recreational liability law.
You don't need to ask anybody to fly them.
USHPA can't touch them.
They are our birthright.
They are the province of the Hawks.
You don't need to beg anybody for anything.
Leave these pissants to stew in their own juice
and go fly.


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Faust
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:12 am 
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Frank (and to a certain extent, Red), you've been a good friend to me and to the U.S. Hawks for many years now. I hope that friendship is strong enough to tolerate some serious disagreement because that's what we appear to be facing.

The issue here is both complex and nuanced. People of good intentions can end up on either side of it. It reminds me of the same moral / practical tradeoffs involved with terrorism or kidnapping. One perspective (my own) is that you never negotiate with terrorists because you'll just get more terrorism. But there are other perspectives that consider negotiation a reasonable strategy to save innocent lives. It is a horrible choice to have to make.

Fortunately, this isn't terrorism or kidnapping. It's just run-of-the-mill internet bullying. But it does have its consequences. Joe's USHGRS idea could fundamentally change the way that many pilots gain access to sites. It could open up a whole new future where pilots are given access to sites based on WHAT they know rather than WHO they know. So for that purpose, it's worth some time to discuss it. I hope you'll give it that time in a calm and thoughtful manner.

Of course, we may be so far apart that there's no common ground at all. If that's the case then we should just agree to disagree and hope that the disagreement is tolerable enough that we can still work together on the goals that we do share.

So with that last thought in mind I'd like to pose a simple question. It's a question that I hinted at in my earlier post, but I'd like to be a bit more concrete now. I think it will tell us if we're anywhere close to a resolution or if we're so far apart that we shouldn't even bother. It involves a hypothetical situation, and like all hypothetical situations it has its flaws. Let's start by ignoring the flaws. Let's just take the situation at face value for now and we can discuss the flaws later. OK? Here it is ...

Imagine you're at Dockweiler having a fun day of flying with Joe Faust and a bunch of other pilots that you don't know very well. Everybody seems to be getting along fine, and toward the end of the day, one of the pilots tells you that the group is going to go to his place just down the road for a barbecue dinner. He's got a great sampling of micro brew beers that you'd love to try. There's only one problem. He tells you that Joe's not invited because he's black (yes, in this hypothetical world, Joe is indeed African-American).

Here's the 4 word simple question: What do you do?

As I said, there are a lot of differences between this scenario and Joe being banned from hanggliding.org. But I'm not asking about hanggliding.org. I'm asking just about this particular situation. I really want to know what you would do. That will let me know if there's enough common ground to bother going any further.

Thanks for your time.

P.S. Rick, you're right that there are a lot of non-USHPA flying sites and at least one non-doppleganger hang gliding web site in the world. :)    However, almost all of the flying sites that I chose to fly regularly (wben I could fly at ANY site of my choosing) are controlled by USHPA. It's access to those sites for ALL qualified pilots that's at stake here. I couldn't care less about hanggliding.org other than getting the word out to pilots about alternatives so we can free up even more sites. That's what this is about and that's exactly why Joe was banned. And that's also why Jack obliterates all USHGRS references. It was never about Joe. It was (and still is) about crushing Joe's USHGRS idea. Really, if Jack had banned Joe for breaking any imaginary rules, why should that prohibit all other pilots (including you Frank) from even mentioning or discussing USHGRS? That's the smoking gun that betrays Jack's real motive behind this atrocity.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Faust
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:52 am 
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Side note ...

If you have any spare time while you're mulling over my question, consider this puzzle:

Frank Colver wrote:
A constant repetition of my Joe Faust request would not be seen by anyone except Jack and eventually he would have the pleasure of banning me without my having helped any to correct the situation.


If Jack deleted all your posts so no one else could see them, then what reason would he announce for banning you? Do you think he would make up things that you didn't do or say? How far do you think Jack would go to ban you if he didn't like what you were saying?

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Faust
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:56 am 
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I think I have made myself perfectly clear in my previous statements. But I will answer your latest question and then I'm done.

Jack would not announce my banning, he would just cut me out without a word to the forum. That way he doesn't have to justify anything. I would find myself unable to sign in. A mysterious disappearance! :(

FYI: I'm going to make another post on HG.org soon, that addresses this.


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