[JoeF]

Team,
I am having pause over
"While this information will not be disclosed to any third party without your consent"

The "this" might not be defined well enough. And how does the phrase rub with "fair use" of published material in discussions elsewhere? Text published become a store of study material where fair use of some quoting is accepted as not breaking copyright.

Spelling and punctuation sometimes can make a huge difference. Will minor punctuation be something that a moderator could change, perhaps with the (sic, ...) tool?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic

~ JoeF

[Bill Cummings]

Team,
I am having pause over
"While this information will not be disclosed to any third party without your consent"

The "this" might not be defined well enough. And how does the phrase rub with "fair use" of published material in discussions elsewhere? Text published become a store of study material where fair use of some quoting is accepted as not breaking copyright.

Spelling and punctuation sometimes can make a huge difference. Will minor punctuation be something that a moderator could change, perhaps with the (sic, ...) tool?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic

~ JoeF

Re: Terms of Service - Remainder of 3rd Paragraph

Postby JoeF » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:57 pm
Team,
I am having pause over
"While this information will not be disclosed to any third party without your consent"

The "this" might not be defined well enough. And how does the phrase rub with "fair use" of published material in discussions elsewhere? Text published become a store of study material where fair use of some quoting is accepted as not breaking copyright.

Spelling and punctuation sometimes can make a huge difference. Will minor punctuation be something that a moderator could change, perhaps with the (sic, ...) tool?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic

~ JoeF

Joe F,
My interpretation of --
"While this information will not be disclosed to any third party without your consent" --- “this” contained within the paragraph describing information that was outside the rules of the TOS that US Hawks chose to either remove, edit, move, close etc, is the only thing stored that would not be released to a third party without the authors consent.

I’m thinking a subpoena would force an author to release stored evidence that could be used against the author in court.
All other information not removed from public view would come under fair use.
Not being trained in law this is only my opinion.
We can make an amendment to the amendment to elucidate more explicitly on language that we deem as too slippery. Scott was a big help to me coming up with acceptable language.

As to [sic] editing my only intent was, spelling correction only, beyond the current edit interval and only at the author’s direction.

[Bill Cummings]

Terms of Service - Remainder of 3rd Paragraph

We're almost done!!!

Here's our current Terms of Service with a highlight of what remains to be ratified:

By accessing “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association” (hereinafter “we”, “us”, “our”, “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association”, “http://ushawks.org/forum”), you agree to be legally bound by the following terms. If you do not agree to be legally bound by all of the following terms then please do not access and/or use “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association”. We may change these at any time and we’ll do our utmost in informing you, though it would be prudent to review this regularly yourself as your continued usage of “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association” after changes mean you agree to be legally bound by these terms as they are updated and/or amended.

Our forums are powered by phpBB (hereinafter “they”, “them”, “their”, “phpBB software”, “www.phpbb.com”, “phpBB Group”, “phpBB Teams”) which is a bulletin board solution released under the “General Public License” (hereinafter “GPL”) and can be downloaded from http://www.phpbb.com. The phpBB software only facilitates internet based discussions, the phpBB Group are not responsible for what we allow and/or disallow as permissible content and/or conduct. For further information about phpBB, please see: https://www.phpbb.com/.

You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any laws be it of your country, the country where “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association” is hosted or International Law. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned, with notification of your Internet Service Provider if deemed required by us. The IP address of all posts are recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree that “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association” have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should we see fit. As a user you agree to any information you have entered to being stored in a database. While this information will not be disclosed to any third party without your consent, neither “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association” nor phpBB shall be held responsible for any hacking attempt that may lead to the data being compromised.

Initially, I was hoping we could just pass this along with the other sections without any changes. However, in a conversation with Bill earlier today, he pointed out that allowing the editing of a post is exactly what many of us have not liked about some of the other national forums. Bill's objection is exactly why I am soooooo glad that each of you has volunteered for this Board. I think we get better results with all of us participating. Thanks Bill!!!   

So based on Bill's comment, I'd like to propose something like this (we can work on the language):

Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned, with notification of your Internet Service Provider if deemed required by us. The IP address of all posts are recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree that “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association” has the right to remove, move or close any topic or post at any time should we see fit. You also agree that the US Hawks Hang Gliding Association has the right to modify the text of any post as long as the modification includes a clear announcement as to the scope and reason for the changes.

As a user you agree to any information you have entered to being stored in a database. While this information will not be disclosed to any third party without your consent, neither “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association” nor phpBB shall be held responsible for any hacking attempt that may lead to the data being compromised.

With regard to the need to edit posts, let me give an easy example. Let's say that a US Hawks member copies copyrighted information into their post in a manner that violates the original copyright. Let's further say that the US Hawks is contacted by the owner of the copyrighted material who demands that the infringing material be removed within 24 hours or they will file a law suit. And let's further say that the person who posted the copyrighted material is unavailable (doesn't respond to phone calls, email, or PM). Under such circumstances, I would like our Board to be able to replace the copyrighted material with a statement like "NOTE: Copyrighted material was removed from this location of this post at the request of the copyright owner."
____________________________________________

Bob's suggestion ... not an official motion wrote:

Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned, with notification of your Internet Service Provider if deemed required by us. The IP address of all posts are recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree that “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association” has the right to remove, move or close any topic or post at any time should we see fit. You also agree that the US Hawks Hang Gliding Association has the right to modify the text of any post as long as the modification includes a clear announcement as to the scope and reason for the changes.

As a user you agree to any information you have entered to being stored in a database. While this information will not be disclosed to any third party without your consent, neither “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association” nor phpBB shall be held responsible for any hacking attempt that may lead to the data being compromised.


With regard to the need to edit posts, let me give an easy example. Let's say that a US Hawks member copies copyrighted information into their post in a manner that violates the original copyright. Let's further say that the US Hawks is contacted by the owner of the copyrighted material who demands that the infringing material be removed within 24 hours or they will file a law suit. And let's further say that the person who posted the copyrighted material is unavailable (doesn't respond to phone calls, email, or PM). Under such circumstances, I would like our Board to be able to replace the copyrighted material with a statement like "NOTE: Copyrighted material was removed from this location of this post at the request of the copyright owner."

Now the procedures for how and when we allow such an edit (along with appropriate checks and balances) are still to be worked out. But I believe our terms of service have to allow us to do something like that under certain conditions. Otherwise we'd be violating the terms that we agreed to with each of our members.

With those thoughts, let's have a discussion, introduce a few motions, and vote to finish up our Terms of Service.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org

Bill in response to Bob K.’s post above:

I see that the word, “edit,” has been removed in---
“Bob's suggestion ... not an official motion wrote:---”

“--- the right to remove, move or close any topic or post at any time should we see fit.----”

Whereas the original “Boiler Plate,” TOS shows:
"---the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should we see fit.---"

Bill’s suggestion would leave the word, “edit,” in place and add an asterisks (*) to the end of the word, “edit.*” (*Further description of the word’s intent would appear at the end of the TOS.)

The reasoning was to deviate as little as possible from the BB software creators’ original legal intent and recognize and stem the flow of abuses that too broad a definition of the word, “edit,” could and has allowed.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Bill’s suggestion would leave the word, “edit,” in place and add an asterisks (*) to the end of the word, “edit.*” (*Further description of the word’s intent would appear at the end of the TOS.)

The reasoning was to deviate as little as possible from the BB software creators’ original legal intent and recognize and stem the flow of abuses that too broad a definition of the word, “edit,” could and has allowed.

I think I would be fine with that if you wanted to propose it. Whether the wording defining the rules for US Hawks modifying (editing) a post go in the main text or offered as a footnote is much less important than what it actually says. Since this paragraph is at the end of the TOS anyway, I don't see much difference between an additional sentence stating the modification as an "also" or using the word "edit" and defining it in a footnote. Personally, I think adding it in the main text is more clear (and would probably hold up better) than as a footnote. People can easily say they don't read the footnotes, and they're also considered the "fine print". But if that difference was important to someone, then I could go either way.

Here's a suggestion which might also serve the purpose of exploring how our our Trial Board might work. So far all of our decisions have been yes or no votes (only two possibilities). Maybe this is a time for multiple proposals and a test of our proposed (but not yet approved) Condorcet voting system. I propose that anyone who has a preferred draft of the remaining portion of the TOS post it here, and then we can have a multiple candidate vote.

So with that thought in mind, let me introduce the following motion:

  Start of Motion  
I move that any Board Members wishing to propose draft text for the remaining Terms of Service do so in one or more posts that clearly delineate their favored wording(s) for that section along with a single (possibly hyphenated) "word" to use as a key for identifying each of their proposed wording(s) in discussion and voting. All such proposed wordings must be posted to this topic before the end of Friday February 27th, 2015, Pacific Time. At that time all Board members may begin voting by placing their preferred ordering of the choices using the author's defined "key" in a post marked with the "vote" tag. Voting shall remain open until the end of Sunday March 1st, 2015 (Pacific Time). Board members may vote multiple times, but only the vote in their last post will be counted. Any proposed (candidate) wording that would defeat all others in a one-on-one comparison using the votes cast shall be adopted as the remaining section of our Terms of Service. If there is no such candidate that defeats all others with the votes cast, then we will continue the discussion.
  End of Motion  

I am seeking a "second" for my motion. Thanks.

[Bill Cummings]

Bill’s suggestion would leave the word, “edit,” in place and add an asterisks (*) to the end of the word, “edit.*” (*Further description of the word’s intent would appear at the end of the TOS.)

The reasoning was to deviate as little as possible from the BB software creators’ original legal intent and recognize and stem the flow of abuses that too broad a definition of the word, “edit,” could and has allowed.

I think I would be fine with that if you wanted to propose it. Whether the wording defining the rules for US Hawks modifying (editing) a post go in the main text or offered as a footnote is much less important than what it actually says. Since this paragraph is at the end of the TOS anyway, I don't see much difference between an additional sentence stating the modification as an "also" or using the word "edit" and defining it in a footnote. Personally, I think adding it in the main text is more clear (and would probably hold up better) than as a footnote. People can easily say they don't read the footnotes, and they're also considered the "fine print". But if that difference was important to someone, then I could go either way.

Here's a suggestion which might also serve the purpose of exploring how our our Trial Board might work. So far all of our decisions have been yes or no votes (only two possibilities). Maybe this is a time for multiple proposals and a test of our proposed (but not yet approved) Condorcet voting system. I propose that anyone who has a preferred draft of the remaining portion of the TOS post it here, and then we can have a multiple candidate vote.

So with that thought in mind, let me introduce the following motion:

  Start of Motion  
I move that any Board Members wishing to propose draft text for the remaining Terms of Service do so in one or more posts that clearly delineate their favored wording(s) for that section along with a single (possibly hyphenated) "word" to use as a key for identifying each of their proposed wording(s) in discussion and voting. All such proposed wordings must be posted to this topic before the end of Friday February 27th, 2015, Pacific Time. At that time all Board members may begin voting by placing their preferred ordering of the choices using the author's defined "key" in a post marked with the "vote" tag. Voting shall remain open until the end of Sunday March 1st, 2015 (Pacific Time). Board members may vote multiple times, but only the vote in their last post will be counted. Any proposed (candidate) wording that would defeat all others in a one-on-one comparison using the votes cast shall be adopted as the remaining section of our Terms of Service. If there is no such candidate that defeats all others with the votes cast, then we will continue the discussion.
  End of Motion  

I am seeking a "second" for my motion. Thanks.

  I second the motion  

[Bob Kuczewski]

So with that thought in mind, let me introduce the following motion:

  Start of Motion  
I move that any Board Members wishing to propose draft text for the remaining Terms of Service do so in one or more posts that clearly delineate their favored wording(s) for that section along with a single (possibly hyphenated) "word" to use as a key for identifying each of their proposed wording(s) in discussion and voting. All such proposed wordings must be posted to this topic before the end of Friday February 27th, 2015, Pacific Time. At that time all Board members may begin voting by placing their preferred ordering of the choices using the author's defined "key" in a post marked with the "vote" tag. Voting shall remain open until the end of Sunday March 1st, 2015 (Pacific Time). Board members may vote multiple times, but only the vote in their last post will be counted. Any proposed (candidate) wording that would defeat all others in a one-on-one comparison using the votes cast shall be adopted as the remaining section of our Terms of Service. If there is no such candidate that defeats all others with the votes cast, then we will continue the discussion.
  End of Motion  

I am seeking a "second" for my motion. Thanks.

  I second the motion  

OK, the motion has been introduced and seconded.

Let's vote on it.

I vote   YES  

[Bill Cummings]

So with that thought in mind, let me introduce the following motion:

  Start of Motion  
I move that any Board Members wishing to propose draft text for the remaining Terms of Service do so in one or more posts that clearly delineate their favored wording(s) for that section along with a single (possibly hyphenated) "word" to use as a key for identifying each of their proposed wording(s) in discussion and voting. All such proposed wordings must be posted to this topic before the end of Friday February 27th, 2015, Pacific Time. At that time all Board members may begin voting by placing their preferred ordering of the choices using the author's defined "key" in a post marked with the "vote" tag. Voting shall remain open until the end of Sunday March 1st, 2015 (Pacific Time). Board members may vote multiple times, but only the vote in their last post will be counted. Any proposed (candidate) wording that would defeat all others in a one-on-one comparison using the votes cast shall be adopted as the remaining section of our Terms of Service. If there is no such candidate that defeats all others with the votes cast, then we will continue the discussion.
  End of Motion  

I am seeking a "second" for my motion. Thanks.

  I second the motion  

OK, the motion has been introduced and seconded.

Let's vote on it.

I vote   YES  

I vote   YES  

[wingspan33]

Start of Motion
I move that any Board Members wishing to propose draft text for the remaining Terms of Service do so in one or more posts that clearly delineate their favored wording(s) for that section along with a single (possibly hyphenated) "word" to use as a key for identifying each of their proposed wording(s) in discussion and voting. All such proposed wordings must be posted to this topic before the end of Friday February 27th, 2015, Pacific Time. At that time all Board members may begin voting by placing their preferred ordering of the choices using the author's defined "key" in a post marked with the "vote" tag. Voting shall remain open until the end of Sunday March 1st, 2015 (Pacific Time). Board members may vote multiple times, but only the vote in their last post will be counted. Any proposed (candidate) wording that would defeat all others in a one-on-one comparison using the votes cast shall be adopted as the remaining section of our Terms of Service. If there is no such candidate that defeats all others with the votes cast, then we will continue the discussion.
End of Motion

I too vote YES.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Super!!

The motion carries with 3 votes in favor, none opposed, and 2 that haven't voted yet. Anyone who hasn't voted on this motion yet is welcome to cast their vote to add to the record, but 3 out of 5 is enough to carry the motion.

So ... we're trying to decide whether to use the existing wording as the last part of our Terms of Service or to use something else.

Here's the existing wording:

Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned, with notification of your Internet Service Provider if deemed required by us. The IP address of all posts are recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree that “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association” have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should we see fit. As a user you agree to any information you have entered to being stored in a database. While this information will not be disclosed to any third party without your consent, neither “US Hawks Hang Gliding Association” nor phpBB shall be held responsible for any hacking attempt that may lead to the data being compromised.

If you have a proposed set of words that you like better than that, please post it as a candidate. After midnight Friday, (in other words, Saturday morning) we can start to vote on those that we like best. We can also continue to discuss them, but we'll be voting on what's already been submitted. We'll vote by placing them in the order that we want them. If it turns out that one of them would beat all the others according to those votes, then that will be the last part of our Terms of Service. Otherwise, we'll have more discussions and try again.  

[SamKellner]

I vote  yes