[brianscharp]

Bob,

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/hang-gl ... h-16276783

I don't want to speculate, but maybe he was referring to an unhooked tandem passenger/student falling to their death.

HG tandem fatality -- Kelly Harrison, 41, of Las Vegas

John Kelly Harrison, 55 or maybe 56.
http://obits.ocregister.com/obituaries/ ... =174563534

JOHN KELLY HARRISON Obituary
Harrison, John Kelly, age 56, passed away Friday March 28, 2015 in a tragic hang-gliding accident in Jean, Nevada. He was born February 22, 1959 to Lorrin "Whitey" and Cecelia (Yorba) Harrison. Kelly lived a life full of adventure. Growing up in Capo Beach, he excelled at surfing, paddling outriggers, diving, and all watersports. Later in life he got involved in hang-gliding, karate, white-water rafting, skiing, sailing, fishing, etc. He was a white-water guide on the Colorado River, ski patrol, EMT, hang-gliding instructor, kayak adventure guide, airplane pilot, an avid poker player and an exceptional human being. Kelly was also a successful business man, owner of Plenty Pupule Kayaks in Kona and Kauai, where he also hosted the Pelagic Pursuit kayak fishing tournaments. Carefree and spontaneous is how he lived his life, which made him fun to be around and his infectious smile brought happiness and fun to all that knew him. Kelly's greatest joy was getting people out of their comfort zones and challenging their spirit of adventure. Kelly is survived by his daughter, Danielle Obinger; sisters, Ginger Grey, Marian Tompkins, Jennifer Van Swae; brother, Lorrin Harrison Jr.; and 2 granddaughters. John Kelly Harrison's Memorial Service will be held at Doheny State Beach on Sunday April 12th at 2:00pm. All friends are welcome, please join our celebration of his life.

[JoeF]

The video has Mr. Palmaz saying that such has "never" happened in the US. The statement was not true as said; the statement was a misrepresentation of the actual way hang gliding has occurred in the US. Should Mr. Palmaz be expelled from the USHPA for such gross misrepresentation?

My take: No. He probably was trying his best at the moment; and maybe he meant something that was not conveyed in the statement. Misstatements and misrepresentations occur when people are out there probably positively trying their best at the moment to serve. I invite Mr. Palmaz to correct the statement publicly and perhaps use his own lesson thereon to exercise a similar understanding of the huge body of good works that BobK has unfolded whilst maybe making some errors among the huge body of good works. Mr. Palmaz, would you discuss this matter hereon or in OzR.

But perhaps Mr. Palmaz should be put up for expelling for deeply failing the Mission Statement of his org because of his action to try to expel BobK. A keen fulfillment of the Mission Statement would embrace, not expel, BobK.

===== Even in Harrison's obituary, a severe error is forwarded. The fatal incident was not a hang gliding incident; rather, it was a manned kiting accident with the anchor being a moving truck pulling a long kite line attached to the kite system's wing. That the wing could have been later used in hang gliding is not doubted. But the incident was framed in a mechanical realm that was not hang gliding. Expertise in hang gliding does not automatically give expertise in truck-towed manned non-hang-gliding kiting. Tandem truck-based manned kiting is NOT a hang gliding operation. An option for Ayrs to have flown a hang glider would have been foot-launching into hang gliding with Harrison. The open media press is forwarding the misrepresentation of the incident; even u$hPa is forwarding the misstatement and misrepresentation of the incident; that org is embracing the false titling of the incident as a hang gliding incident. All might be trying their best, but they still end up giving false statements and misrepresenting what was happening. More accurate representing and stating might invite a clearer opportunity to focus on the need to master safety matters in the separate disciplines of truck-anchored manned tandem kiting and the different manned tandem hang gliding. Should members who urge the org to get the matter straight for safety sake be expelled from the org? My vote: no. During positive efforts, errors will be made; humans make errors regularly; such can be counted on; but such each time could help bring new positive efforts in new cycles of effort.

[Rick Masters]

...maybe he was referring to an unhooked tandem passenger/student falling to their death.

Brian, my first reaction was to think tandem joyrides were perfectly safe in the USA.
Not a single incident!
Is that just me, or might John Q. Public think that too?
Clearly, that is the perception that a group of people who make a lot of money off freeflight would like to convey.
Gosh, they might even form a corporation to tell people how safe freeflight is.
They might even hire a lawyer to give that impression to people.

Even in Harrison's obituary, a severe error is forwarded. The fatal incident was not a hang gliding incident; rather, it was a manned kiting accident

Joe, I use intent to decide if an accident is kiting or hang gliding. If the intent is to stay attached to a line, it's kiting. If the intent is to release, it's hang gliding.
If you want to analyze your view farther, what was Harrison doing when the line went slack? Can you be kiting with a slack line? No. But aren't hang glider pilots technically kiting their hang gliders from their center of mass? Sure. But can we follow a simple line of thought by entering this semantic morass? Nope. Or maybe we can. Or maybe not. Yup.

[brianscharp]

...maybe he was referring to an unhooked tandem passenger/student falling to their death.

Bill, my first reaction was to think tandem joyrides were perfectly safe in the USA.
Not a single incident!
Is that just me, or might John Q. Public think that too?
Clearly, that is the perception that a group of people who make a lot of money off freeflight would like to convey.
Gosh, they might even form a corporation to tell people how safe freeflight is.
They might even hire a lawyer to give that impression to people.

My name is Brian. They were discussing a very unique situation when the question was asked "How could this happen?". So it's logical the answer referred to that situation. I don't disagree with your assertion about the impression they'd like to convey. Otherwise he'd have added that we've had many other tandem deaths that resulted from different circumstances, just not that one yet.

[JoeF]

The profit in exactness would come from requiring mastery of what is mechanically occurring.
During the slack: the realms changed as you note well.
Of course, the common "intent" mixes activity envelopes; and thus the near 100% "hang gliding" in reporting texts.The challenge comes on hearers missing possibly the emphatic need to respect the non-hang gliding portions of the activity occurring. Once one is embedded in hang gliding that uses the towing operations with mastery of both realms, then there is not problem if full respect is given to both realms in the totality of the operations.
However, mastery of hang gliding does not necessarily wrap mastery of truck-towing kiting. The incident involved truck-towed kiting.
Whatever went awry might have occurred in the truck-towed kiting mechanical realm.
Hang gliding intents may adopt remote prime-moving towing vehicles; such is frequent.
But while truck-tow kiting, hang gliding free-flight is not yet occurring. Mastery of the non-hang gliding aspects of a process intended to give hang gliding is a whole realm unto itself.

I have no expectation that the media and text will be other than what you display in the "intent" analysis practice. My sidebar hope is that focus will be placed on mastery of the remote-anchor kiting aspects that are not mechanically free-flight gliding aspects. Hang gliding culture has shown some losses when unearned use of remote-anchor towing is brought on top of the ability to free-flight hang glide; my "unearned" I mean mastery of the non-hang gliding remote-anchor towing mechanics and safety matters were not matured; a dependency on the actual hang gliding mastery can give unearned confidence over the towing operations.

[Rick Masters]

Otherwise he'd have added that we've had many other tandem deaths that resulted from different circumstances

Really? Ya think?

[dhmartens]

Is there any time line as to when Torrey had a tandem right of way rule, when BobK made diagrams showing the faults of that strategy, and when the rule was overturned?
I am not up to date on this subject.

Doug

[Bob Kuczewski]

Hi Doug,

It's great seeing you here on the US Hawks. I hope you'll be able to make it to the Dockweiler celebration on May 23rd. That will also be the first time that the US Hawks will be gathering as a group, and it would be great to see you there.

Regarding the Torrey Tandem Right of Way rule, I believe it was instituted by David Jebb as a way to keep his tandem paraglider pilots from sinking to the beach on light wind days (faster turn-around for tandems = more money for Jebb). It was an insane rule because you had to constantly evaluate each approaching glider (mostly paragliders) to see how many "legs" were hanging out of it to decide whether to pass on the right or left.

As I recall, when Robin took over from Jebb, there was an incident related to this rule, and so it was "officially" repealed. But long after that rule was supposedly "repealed" I've still heard instructors telling their students that they should always give tandems the right of way.

I have used diagrams of that ridiculous rule in presentations as to why the people making the money at Torrey Pines cannot be trusted to make the rules as well. There's just too much temptation to make rules to fill wallets rather than for safety.

I think some of those diagrams are available on this site, and I'll update this post if I find them ...

  :

OK, there's a topic titled "Bob Kuczewski Speaks up for Pilot Oversight at Torrey Pines", and it's a compilation produced by one of our members from San Diego City Council presentations. Here's the link: http://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1385 .

Here's one slide from a presentation that shows the problem:

Tandem_Right_of_Way_f13_png.jpg (81.73 KiB) Viewed 5435 times

Based on my notes, I believe the Tandem Right of Way rule was "officially" repealed in the spring of 2009. But it was in July of 2013 when I overheard one of their instructors explaining to his students that tandems have the right of way.

[wingspan33]

The video has Mr. Palmaz saying that such has "never" happened in the US . . .

What's important to realize is that politicians can lie "honestly". Remember Bill Clinton saying "I did not have sexual relations with that woman . . . Monica Lewinsky." Well, he was thinking of another woman when he said "with that woman" then he just happened to say the words "Monica Lewinsky". Result - He wasn't lying (to anyone who could read his mind).

The same thing might be said about Palmaz. He was thinking about a tandem pilot who swallowed a memory card when he said that something like that has never happened in the US.

The bigger context is that a tandem fatality had happened in Canada. And the fact is that tandem fatalities have also happened in the US. We can't read Palmaz's mind, but we (as informed pilots) realize that what he's very likely responding to a specific idea (swallowing a memory card) not a general idea (i.e., tandem PG/HG passengers sometime die!).

A truly good reporter/journalist doesn't ask vaguely worded questions. They ask questions that require a simple Yes-No answer. That's probably a BIGGER problem than "honest" politicians.

[dhmartens]

Bill Clinton did not have sexual intercourse with that women, he had foreplay.

Landing on Robin's head 101, just posted at ozforum.