[Frank Colver]

In the video sequence shown the pilot appears to be pulled down by the hang strap rather than a momentum caused swing through. But it's hard to tell.

But as I said before; he/she should have pushed out as far as possible just before the wheels touched down. Dragging feet would help slow the glider and lift the nose also as the wheels hit the sand.

A comment on suggested skids: I would be concerned that those would have ends that could injure a pilot should he be thrown about in the landing.

FC

[Bob Kuczewski]

Sounds like you are getting closer to producing more Little Hawks

That's really a great idea!!!!

I have to say that the Los Angeles area is much more hang gliding friendly (than San Diego) due to the years of efforts by people like Joe Greblo and Rob McKenzie. Maybe we can take Little Hawk on a tour of LA area campuses and bring more young people into the sport!!!

[JoeF]

Wheels and ski




And a different time and place and device: Notice the spring.
http://fly.historicwings.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/HighFlight-Models2.jpg
... same as link, but partial clip showing here:

HistoricModelPartialClip.jpg (24.76 KiB) Viewed 6153 times

[JoeF]

Full-segmented scales for either harness front or for hinged surface that stays weathercocking beneath pilot. If scaly harness, drag front over earth, even gravel. If hinged surface, then spoon-ski front (can be as wide as basebar. Stark scales to protect body parts, hips, knees, toes; spread pressures by the design of the skidding scales; "wear the skid" or wear the dragging anchor. Interior cushioning is to spread the pressures cuppingly on torso and legs.
Fun teasers:
http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshow ... 5_free.jpg
and
http://www.aliexpress.com/item-img/motorcycle-armor-jacket-protector-off-road-dirt-bike-protect-anti-wrestling-good-service-and-good-price/641260539.html
And
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/neck-guard-armor-clothing-defender-Full-body-armor-motorcycle-S-M-L-XL-XXL-XXXL/1935061149.html

Maybe consider a thick flying wing from basebar to rear under body; wing hinges as pilot goes upright for significant drogue; but in streaming and prone, the wing could meet the soil while pilot is on top of the wing; span of the auxiliary wing could be the width of the A-frame basebar; basebar might be embedded in the stubby wing. At cruise, the auxiliary wing could be tear-drop set for least drag.

http://www.instructables.com/id/The-Art-of-Sledding/

IdeaHere

http://tinyurl.com/TeasingWithSledImages

[JoeF]

Reflecting my earlier attention on topic at another forum:
=================================================
Have fun Tue, Aug 10 2010, 10:43:45 pm
Comments are invited, have fun:



Edit: Aug. 23 :: See later post for deployable alternate version.

EDIT: A cousin topic thread was opened in 2012: http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28102
=======================
Christian Williams was first to reply:
But--why?

If planning to land frequently downslope or downwind on a known strip, wouldn't a good set of basetube wheels work?

Who would plan to land downslope or downwind into rough terrain? So why carry around all this extra stuff?
========================
Re: Have fun Fri, Aug 13 2010, 2:34:22 am
(quoting entire message by Christian Williams, right above)

Christian,
Good questions.

You have started the planning space. It may be great fun to comprehensively find planned scenes and examine the pros and cons in each that might seem interesting.

And you anchor the big "Why?" Having fun with that might spark findings of interest. I am guessing there will be many responses to your "why?"

In support of your contribution, I bring in the whole universe of "unplanned" landing experiences; and the planned unplanned space also.
The drawing was just edited a bit for spelling and slight expansion of text. I was assuming without stating that in the skyview of the one version: the upper edge of the tetrahedronic cage from nose to wheel (or frontal canard wing) is not drawn in order to given emphasis to the two elements going to the basebar region; the sideview shows the edge that is neglected in the skyview.

And perhaps add to the party:
== Consider in the fun the region of flight for "flatland long gliding" (FLG) where the pilot aims not to use legs in the landing operation.
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/Ground-effect_gliding

== Consider in the fun the possibilities of deploying elements from low-drag stowing of the elements.

== Consider examining all the wheels that have been in our hang gliding experiences; explore aims and results; then examine the suggestive play in the same scenes.

== Consider each whack that has occurred and explore some what-ifs relative to the shown play: either the frontal wheel-and-TCF sub sled or the frontal canard sled wing-and-TCF sub sled.

== Consider legless pilots.

== Consider fine defects in landing turfs (planned or unplanned)

== Conder Jonathan Dietch's recent desert downwind downslope video.
A Hair Raising Fire Road Landing [Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:42 pm]

Christian, you initiate another dimension in asking about "carry around all," etc. When would it be "extra" and when would it be "glad I have it for this activity!"
Just how might one build and handle various versions of the suggested elements?
Worth?
Investment level?
Secondary uses of the elements? The TCF region sled could perhaps be explored as a wing; and its upper surface might be considered as instrument-panel screen. I am just at the beginning of the party.

What, where, why, when, who, precise design, how, secondary uses of elements, results, experiences, etc. ?

Some rough preliminaries are being collected: http://www.energykitesystems.net/TCF/index.html
=======================

But--why?

If planning to land frequently downslope or downwind on a known strip, wouldn't a good set of basetube wheels work?

Who would plan to land downslope or downwind into rough terrain? So why carry around all this extra stuff?

Christian,
Good questions.

You have started the planning space. It may be great fun to comprehensively find planned scenes and examine the pros and cons in each that might seem interesting.

And you anchor the big "Why?" Having fun with that might spark findings of interest. I am guessing there will be many responses to your "why?"

In support of your contribution, I bring in the whole universe of "unplanned" landing experiences; and the planned unplanned space also.
The drawing was just edited a bit for spelling and slight expansion of text. I was assuming without stating that in the skyview of the one version: the upper edge of the tetrahedronic cage from nose to wheel (or frontal canard wing) is not drawn in order to given emphasis to the two elements going to the basebar region; the sideview shows the edge that is neglected in the skyview.

And perhaps add to the party:
== Consider in the fun the region of flight for "flatland long gliding" (FLG) where the pilot aims not to use legs in the landing operation.
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/Ground-effect_gliding

== Consider in the fun the possibilities of deploying elements from low-drag stowing of the elements.

== Consider examining all the wheels that have been in our hang gliding experiences; explore aims and results; then examine the suggestive play in the same scenes.

== Consider each whack that has occurred and explore some what-ifs relative to the shown play: either the frontal wheel-and-TCF sub sled or the frontal canard sled wing-and-TCF sub sled.

== Consider legless pilots.

== Consider fine defects in landing turfs (planned or unplanned)

== Conder Jonathan Dietch's recent desert downwind downslope video.
A Hair Raising Fire Road Landing [Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:42 pm]

Christian, you initiate another dimension in asking about "carry around all," etc. When would it be "extra" and when would it be "glad I have it for this activity!"
Just how might one build and handle various versions of the suggested elements?
Worth?
Investment level?
Secondary uses of the elements? The TCF region sled could perhaps be explored as a wing; and its upper surface might be considered as instrument-panel screen. I am just at the beginning of the party.

What, where, why, when, who, precise design, how, secondary uses of elements, results, experiences, etc. ?

Some rough preliminaries are being collected: http://www.energykitesystems.net/TCF/index.html

…
Just having fun further:
Secondary use idea: Frontal wheel or frontal canard sledding wing or TCF sub-sled-or-wing …these might have a second use of water floating, instrument holding, electric-charge storage, instrument read-out surface, lighting, flight control, …? And such fun would seem to make this situation into a high hatcase.

And Christian, consider the interface with this topic with your http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21054 Drag-footlanding …inasmuch as the TCF sled/wing can be deployed perhaps to give drag under some control by design; and consider other formats for ground-side of harness toward the same drag matters.

And consider swing-through restraints that might be deployed for a certain landing.
==============================
Jacmac noted:
Re: Have fun Fri, Aug 13 2010, 6:56:34 am
I sure as heck wouldn't try foot lauching that contraption if there was any chance of the nose dipping into terrain.
==============================
Jacmac,
Would you rather the nose dip into the terrain than have an arrangement that rolled/sledded …so that sudden stop would not occur?
Nose dip and sudden stops have killed, broken necks, etc. One of the functions of the arrangement is to keep the nose from dipping into the terrain in special circumstances.

So, I am trying to see what you might be seeing. My phrasing would have: "I sure as heck would try foot launching with the arrangement, if there was any chance of the nose dipping into the terrain …and so save TCF legs, save neck break, save head hit, and perhaps save from injury or death." So, I hope to understand your perspective better.
JoeF
===========================
Jacmac replies again:
Re: Have fun Fri, Aug 13 2010, 1:45:52 pm
I'm thinking of that front end catching up on boulders, bushes, or tall thick grass immediately in front of the launch.
==========================
Jacmac,
Thanks for clarifying your launching concerns. It is clarifying for me to distinguish launch issues from landing issues. One has more choice and control about the launch point scene than on landing scenes. In the launch scene in your focus, stowed frontal wheel or stowed frontal canard low wing would seem to be invited; deploy such for landing, if wanted for the impending landing.

Floyd Fronius mentioned to me last Sunday deployment as something to explore; on his GOAT he has a low frontal skid and rear wheel and does not foot-launch; he uses launch scenes where there is not much chance of catching boulders, bushes, or tall thick grass; on landing he can tolerate pressing down tall grasses and skidding over some sizes of rock (the topic of this thread teases facing sledding over larger rock and more squirrely brush and holes).

The deployed arrangement then becomes a sector of this thread.
How to deploy the devices?
When to deploy the devices?
Affects of stowing and deploying the devices?
====Aug. 22, 2010, furthering:
Alternate fewer-parts stowed and deployable low-nose projective wheel/sled/wing: One piece stows in keel and is deployed forward; the structure of the item is such that as the item comes out of the keel it recalls a curved shape that brings the wheel/sled/wing to a low position ready for functioning as an anti-whack. Choice of tip to wheel or sled or sled-wing might fit particular specialized flying scenes. E.g., the flat field long gliding or "winging" (FLG) might keep the item deployed; whereas deliberate downslope landing following soaring or high gliding might keep the item stowed until on final approach to LZ.

===================

One of the deployable directions is to have the tetrahedronic three frontal edges stowed as such: the staying edge from wheel (or frontal canard wing) to nose might fit inside the keel. And the two edges from the wheel (or frontal low canard wing-sled) could stow up snug to the frontal flying cables.

Thanks,
JoeF

Aug. 17, 2010, furthering:
Post-landing in high winds where one may want to bury the nose does invite quick stowing of the device to allow burying the nose.
JoeF.
====================
C R V responded:
Re: Have fun Mon, Aug 23 2010, 11:44:09 am
The whack, or "WHACK!", as yelled at numerous flying sites throughout the world, is an integral part of hang-gliding and should not be taken away.

From day one, we have been yelling "WHACK!" at our flying buddies…rather than installing unnecessary "accessories" to prevent the whack, we should be researching the history of the whack as well as the yelling of "WHACK!"

Who was the first hang-gliding pilot to yell, "WHACK!"???

That is what we should be concerned.

Do not try to take away the whack in hang-gliding…the whack, or "WHACK!", must be maintained and nurtured for all of us to enjoy.
===================
Mon, Aug 23 2010, 11:51:57 am
Blindrodie notes:
From that Avatar I think we can safely yell, "WHACK - WHACK" Yes the prestigious D Whack or Double down whack. It's rare and deserves a…

====================

From that Avatar I think we can safely yell, "WHACK - WHACK" Yes the prestigious D Whack or Double down whack. It's rare and deserves a…

Three weeks ago 81 year old veteran hang glider pilot Rome Dodson … after some recovery pause … again flew from Kagel in his specially made harness that does not allow him to use his feet; he lands on wheels. Yesterday he exclaimed one of his pet ideas that would have an explosive device that would go off on the underside of the nose when his wing would whack or come near whacking; the reaction of the explosive would move the nose back up a bit, somewhat like spacecraft control attitude. We talked a bit and I brought up the deployable snout that would keep his wing from whacking. But now with your post Blindrodie, perhaps we could get Rome a sounder that upon touchdown would loudspeak "WHACK, WHACK, WHACK" to delight the LZ crowd at Sylmar. Triple WHACK or TW.
http://energykitesystems.net/RomeDodson/
is where some of his colorful history may be gathered (send notes to me, if you wish, on Rome's history).
Editor @ HangGliderMagazine.com [close spaces] or PM.
=============================
Dayhead noted:
Re: Have fun Mon, Aug 23 2010, 5:40:44 pm
In the original "Whack" video Paul Voight gives Mitch McCaleer the credit for being the first to popularize the term.

Joe, it's good to see someone giving this issue some thought. It has always bothered me that so many serious injuries and even death have occurred as a result of the simple whack.

I broke my back about 2 1/2 yrs ago, I have T6 thru T10 fused with titanium rods on each side of this area. I have to enlist my friends to help carry the folded glider, but I can carry it assembled as the weight is evenly distributed.

The doctor cautioned me regarding shock loads, no jumping down off the tailgate,etc. I've forgotten a couple times and boy do I get reminded very painfully! So I no longer do foot landings, I roll in on wheels. This discourages me from going XC, as I need to land where I know it's reasonably smooth enough for my wheel diameter. So adding a wheel to the nose plate might be a good idea for me.
If I land in a place that "trips" my wheels the nose wheel may prevent a sudden stop. I'm sure that there are a few paralyzed folks out there that wouldn't be if they had had three wheels.

Also, I've often wondered about a restraint rope that would limit how far forward a pilot could swing through in a whack.

A few years ago I saw a whack that demonstrated how short the forward keel is on modern kites. The guy whacked at Andy's and swung through and the nose plate came down on his head. The helmet did it's job, but I shudder to think what could have been if the keel were only a few inches shorter: It would have hit his neck. Ouch!

==================
Sam Kellner noted:
Re: Have fun Mon, Aug 23 2010, 6:07:32 pm
Crvalley:
Who was the first hang-gliding pilot to yell, "WHACK!"??? .

I think Pork was!
==================
Blindrodie noted:
Re: Have fun Mon, Aug 23 2010, 8:23:10 pm
a restraint rope that would limit how far forward a pilot could swing through in a whack.

WOW great idea. I'm soon to start flying a blade wing and I worry about that as well, plus the manual even mentions the possibility and how to avoid it!
==================

a restraint rope that would limit how far forward a pilot could swing through in a whack.

WOW great idea. I'm soon to start flying a blade wing and I worry about that as well, plus the manual even mentions the possibility and how to avoid it! [ ]

[ ] ?? How?
=============================
Filler:
http://tinyurl.com/Soaring1928
Filler:
http://strangevehicles.greyfalcon.us/Espenlaub%20Experimental.htm
============================

http://www.energykitesystems.net/IlanKr ... hacker.jpg
http://www.energykitesystems.net/Timeli ... tsnout.gif

Stanford students in concert with Professor Ilan Kroo chose during experiments a forward anti-whack snout.
http://www.desktop.aero/swift.php

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5x83jL94F7s?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5x83jL94F7s?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

http://www.energykitesystems.net/IlanKroo/index.html

http://www.energykitesystems.net//images/antiWhacker.jpg Study clip; vid URL is on clip
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/IVdHege0w-E?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/IVdHege0w-E?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Code: Select all

Some related images:
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1911/1911%20-%200035.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1911/1911%20-%200036.html   
http://www.century-of-flight.net/Aviation%20history/flying%20wings/Early%20Flying%20Wings.htm
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1911/1911%20-%200203.html
Spoon foot on skid: http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1911/1911%20-%200244.html
http://www.ctie.monash.edu/hargrave/images/avion3_foldedwimgs_750.jpg  Early trike, early TCF integrated with pilot platform, Ader and his Avion III.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1911/1911%20-%200262.html   Way up front …
http://drcwsu.ohiolink.edu/bitstream/handle/2374.WSU/2758/20-4-1.jpg?sequence=2


[JoeF]

More of earlier:
=================
About 1975:

I was contacted yesterday by a chap I worked with 35 years ago. He had been at one of the trials of my splitwing design and took a number of photos which he has just sent to me.

There are two locations depicted in the series where tests were conducted. The main slope is at Brasted the other is a sand pit behind my house in Darenth. The attached picture is a complete novice flying after I have launched him by pushing on the keel.
Tony Prentice

Cable leading edge for the jib and cable trailing edge adjusting system for the main.
See cords from rear of sail for tension adjustment

http://energykitesystems.net/TCF/TonyPr ... nTCF22.jpg
http://energykitesystems.net/TCF/TonyPr ... iOnTCF.jpg
http://www.energykitesystems.net/Lift/T ... rasted.jpg [/quote]
=========================
=========================
The Keith Weiss Aviette of 1912 with accented anti-whack
http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/weiss.html

http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/ ... weissA.jpg
===========================

Art on another Weiss effort:
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/pix/ ... 4858_T.JPG

===========================

http://www.modelflight.regheath.com/ear ... Platel.jpg

The shown Gyro Hang Glider Tow video shows a frontal device that reduces Whack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

[JoeF]

More earlier. April 19, 2011
"Prellbügel"
<a href="http://www.google.com/patents?id=10xzAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&pg=PA2&ci=320%2C559%2C133%2C278&source=bookclip"><img src="http://www.google.com/patents?id=10xzAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA2&img=1&zoom=4&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U10fI9iY-_Mpuqir7OZAwv-yCR9dw&ci=320%2C559%2C133%2C278&edge=0"></a>

http://wase.urz.uni-magdeburg.de/anitsc ... sprung.pdf

In Otto Lilienthal's normal or standard hang glider,
a bow frame or "Prellbügel" was used to reduce the impact in case of a crash.
Current anti-whack snouts, etc. have a root in Otto, perhaps!

Later the "normal glider" was refined to a biplane hang glider.
http://tinyurl.com/detailOttoLilienthal

http://www.lilienthal-museum.de/olma/eba1894.htm
Normalsegelapparat

http://www.lilienthal-museum.de/olma/e213.htm

http://www.lilienthal-museum.de/olma/im ... 90relo.jpg
http://www.kalle-brenner.homepage.t-online.de/sfm.jpg

Otto Marker Project Action Log
If you were there, your story is invited. There may also be a way for anyone in any nation to advance the project that is underway.

== http://wase.urz.uni-magdeburg.de/anitsc ... sprung.pdf

[JoeF]

Sam K. notes on April 19, 2011
Hi #5,

Looks to me that an over the bar supine harness would fit in that design. How laidback? And what else?

We almost have a glider-trike here.
==============================
Mapjim noted:
whack-rolling nose Tue, Apr 19 2011, 3:32:34 pm
Would such a long proboscis be needed, or just a big wheel just in front of the nose? (Or perhaps embedded in the nose somehow, if you reconfigured the nose plate, keel, nose cone and front wire attachments.) It wouldn't prevent a whack that way, but, combined with control bar wheels, make it more of a whack and roll, perhaps (ground surface and wheel diameter permitting).
================================
Dayhead noted
Re: Have fun Wed, Apr 20 2011, 1:56:01 pm
The responses to Joe's idea are interesting to say the least, from a psychological viewpoint.

Yes, we all get a kick out of yelling Whack! when it happens, especially so when the whacking pilot is one of our celebrated 'sky gods'.

But when a simple whack ends up in a wheelchair, we sober up fast.

While I love HG as much as anyone does, my love doesn't blind me to the cold fact that the activity can be considered excessively unforgiving.

I for one don't feel that it's OK for the simple whack to kill or maim, but it does.

While basetube wheels have proven to be effective in reducing the carnage, they often aren't enough.

We can't do anything for the pilot that vertical dives in at high speed, but I do believe that we can use our big brains to devise methods of reducing the unforgiving nature of our sport. It's a crime that simply stumbling on a rock can easily send you to the hospital with two spirally fractured arms. I saw this happen to a concert violinist.

You stay on this Joe, don't let the nay-sayers get you down. Anything we can do to improve our safety record will help grow the sport.

Just keep the K.I.S.S. principle to heart and you'll do OK.

Steve

[JoeF]

More from earlier:
===================
Steve,
Thanks.
You have mentioned in a couple of posts in this thread some items that deserve more attention.
Hopefully others and we will continue to address the items. .

One item regards the effective relationship between wheel profiles and the surfaces that are met by the wheels. Small wheels can act as knives cutting into soils, as the tread and width is small and narrow, respectively. Years ago in OZ Report I mentioned WWW (wheels when wanted) as a tease to innovation discussion (wheels not showing to the airstream until wheels are wanted; then pop open wheel set at tread and diameter and width wanted.] Similar idea for sled and ski and spoon …when wanted, perhaps.

You also mentioned nose wheel. Similar gouge challenges can be discussed on a nose wheel. But you quickly mentioned the driving down onto head and neck with wheel or not. Sliding noseplates were early hopefuls for some slide help, but those can in shorter keeled advanced wings bring the same cutting hit on pilot that moves forward into the rotating whacking nose. Early aircraft had a focus on lower devices that prevent the harsh rotation; for HGs, as you mentioned and Bille mentioned…restraining limiting line may help. Hitting helmeted head onto a rotated keel has brought broken necks and paralysis; keeping the keel more parallel with the landing soils reduces such occasions.

Along these lines I present more (attached rough sketch); this regards triple purposing a mini-canard that flys for lift to partake of the flying performance of the HG, but acts as a low spoon-like sled that slides over brush and boulders; Teflon(R) lower surface comes to mind. A triple purpose would be the use of the spaces of the canard: exterior top for data, notes, plans …data deck streamlined into the upper surface. Lower surface could purpose for communication by illumination, perhaps more. Interior might double for storage of first-aid, water, batteries, tree-out thread, food, oxygen; maybe pod could be more streamlined as some things are moved to the canard-spoon-anti-whacker wing interior; with upper surface as screen, perhaps TCF braketed instruments could be deleted and a streaming savings there; but these are extras). At TCF base a set of skis in drawback positioning could be part of knuckle protection …wide enough to outperform cutting narrow wheels of sharpen tangency.
http://energykitesystems.net/Lift/Whack ... canard.jpg
http://www.energykitesystems.net/Lift/i ... ngSkid.jpg
http://youtu.be/6gq4kBzIaCs

I am considering Kevlar composite for the lower surface of the canard wing skid or sled. An a streamlined stay strut from nose to CWS is being considered (even perhaps rotatable for yaw tweaking).

The great thing is to make a decent landing. When I have been going along quickly, I have broken this machine several times by not landing properly, that is to say, by touching the ground when I have had a big forward speed. In this machine I took the precaution to put these little wheels underneath, and they take a great blow. If they break, the bottom of the masts get into the ground, and the next thing that happens is ---well, the thing turns over endways, and gives one a bit of a jar.

[JoeF]

More from earlier: Sun, Jun 5 2011,
==========http://www.soundrider.com/archive/spoofs/glidercycle.htm Click.
http://www.soundrider.com/images/things/GliderCycle.gif

http://media.techeblog.com/images/hang-glider.jpg

http://images.gizmag.com/gallery_lrg/streetflyer-2.JPG

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/mags/Pop ... glider.jpg

http://www.wright-brothers.org/History_ ... oplane.jpg

http://einhornpress.com/images/AIRPLANE ... BIRD-1.BMP



http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2011/01/ ... le-glider/
[/img]
http://www.plan59.com/images/JPGs/glide-o-bike_00.jpg

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/mags/qf/ ... cles_0.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj31 ... BPC216.jpg