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Re: Should we try a different way? Designwise....

Postby ARP » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:39 pm

Found it:- http://www.delta-club-82.com/bible/bizarre.php?langue=e

Not Switzerland more like Germany on the Wasserkuppe

Just found confirmation of location:-

I took this photo in summer 1977 at the Lilienthal Meeting on the Wasserkuppe.
As far as I remember, this glider never flew.... Manfred Wagner (25/03/2015)

http://www.delta-club-82.com/bible/710- ... nconnu.htm
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Re: Should we try a different way? Designwise....

Postby brianscharp » Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:08 pm

My drawing skills aren't that good. If they were I'd be sketching basically a MK1 look-a-like with the possible exceptions of aspect ratio and sail gap size and I don't remember if it had battens. It had a swing seat (control bar with lower rigging), cable leading edge on the front sail that I'm pretty sure attached directly to the keel in the back, unlike the MK2 and the other wing you just found. I don't remember seeing a fin. My initial impression was that it was extremely odd and I didn't understand the reasoning for the gap at that time. It was the one and only time I've ever seen a glider like that in person.
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Re: Should we try a different way? Designwise....

Postby ARP » Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:32 pm

The gap works in the same way that sailboats do with jib sails. There is an interaction between the two "wings" which enables the airflow to stay attached at very high angles of attack so they do not stall. Airliners use slats on the leading edge on take off and landing to reduce the stall speed. It is like having a deep high lift aerofoil with two single surfaces defining the total shape of that deep aerofoil.

I am sure that an aerodynamicist will have a more scientific explanation for it and the sailing fraternity talk about the venturi effect through the slot, but whoever is correct the effect is real and enabled me to fly slower than any other hang gliders I have flown of similar wing area.

This slow speed and the stability of the layout is used to good effect with indoor kites like this :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcxlVVZYyfE
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Re: Should we try a different way? Designwise....

Postby Dayhead » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:32 pm

The Platz glider has always fascinated me. I built a free-flight model, using kite parts, and later tried using RC to steer it. I didn't do it right :roll:

I'm trying not to design an actual glider at this point. Rather, I just want to get a philosophical basis for a design. It's too easy to prematurely design something, and get stuck in it's box.

The List of Priorities: Obviously we should have safety as #1, but safety is made up of many things.

So #2, for now anyway, is convenience. While some will simply say "Paraglider", I personally want at least some framework, so my design is for what we call a hang glider. But please note that I wrote "at least some framework". Again, I'm trying to avoid getting stuck in a box. I don't know how much framework I'm gonna need, but since "convenience" dictates both lightweight and fast set-up time, it makes sense to me to keep looking over at that paraglider, and recognizing that it does a lot with a little. While it's true that they are made up of a lot pieces sewn or tied together, in the end they are essentially a one-piece glider.

No wingnuts, no pip-pins, no tangs, no etc. A lofty goal and likely not attainable for hang glider design, but definitely something to admire and respect.

So the most minimal parts count possible will be the goal to strive for. Every part costs money and has weight. So to reduce weight and costs.....

Way back in the late mid-seventies sometime I watched a guy unzip a glider bag, assemble a control frame in a few seconds, stand the kite on it's nose plate, and allow the LE's to drop into place. The battens were already inserted radially, and just a couple/few hardware connections later he was good to go. It probably could give a Pg a run for it's money in terms of set-up and fold-up time, although weight and size was definitely Hg all the way.

But the memory of watching that is a good one to have, and to keep reflecting on when I design my glider.

I'm doing my best to avoid deciding on a method of construction for now. Although good old aluminum tubing serves a manufacturer very well, I believe that because I am patient and not in a hurry, there are maybe better ways to build my glider. One construction method that intrigues me is that used by Steve Woods (RIP), a Cessna aeronautical engineer who designed a powered ultralight he named "Skypup".

The early powered Hg's, such as Quicksilver and Easy Riser, had just come on the scene, and Steve decided he could build a better UL. And he did. It was of cantilever construction, with the only cables being control cables. It reportedly had at least a 12:1 glide, and just eyeballing it convinces me that it could do at least that well.

Now, I'm not gonna build a non-powered Skypup, although if I was a flat-land tow-launched pilot with access to hangar space, I'd definitely give it some consideration. Get an engineer to help redesign the fuselage, to allow dispensing with the stink-pot noise-maker, and move the pilot's seat forward to balance it, and it would make for a decent little rigid wing.

As of several years ago, a Skypup builder said he completed the entire airframe for less than than $1K, in a couple/few months of relaxed building. I can dig that.

The Skypup is built using styrofoam and wood as the material. Of course, a guy with the $ and expertise could save some weight using carbon in place of wood. But ya know, I like working with wood. I know a guy who regularly flies a cute little Culver Cadet airplane, built entirely of wood, that can go 130 mph on 85 HP. The airplane was built in 1939 and is still plenty airworthy, although he babies her and no longer loops her. Slow rolls are still fun, he says. :)

I think the Skypup's construction method could be applied to a folding wing structure, with nose ribs and trailing ribs folding along the spar. Add some wing chord so the airfoil can be reflexed, and I'd be about halfway there. Shear ribs or webbing inside the "sail" would prevent unwanted ballooning and the loss of reflex, a problem that occurred with some early rigid wing Hg's.

At this point I should mention that I'm in favor of a planform that is basically straight, with no sweep back, and a central fin to provide yaw stability. One thing I'd like to get some qualified feedback on is the concept of a wing that is pitch-stable at any given point along the span. The desire being to control twist without having the need for expensive sail materials under high span-wise tension. Skypup has a main spar and a D-tube, but no rear spar. It uses a wing section that has very little pitching moment, and no ailerons. It is controlled using rudder and elevator. I would be content using weight-shift for pitch control, and if I can control roll by pivoting the wings at the root and even use weight-shift for that, I'd be happy. To be compact when folded, I don't want the D-tube, although our present method of using a Mylar insert would be Ok, if it allows the main spar to nestle up inside it when folded.
Just as the Skypup could be built inexpensively, I don't see why a decent Hg can't be built on a budget. Just gotta be careful, and keep a firm grip on the Handle of the Safety Thing.

It should be noted that Tyvek housewrap has been used to make sailboat sails. Seems to me that it could be used as the covering material, or "sail" if you prefer, for an ultralight glider. If an inexpensive and easily worked with material is used, so what if it's only good for a season or three.

Well, I just read what I've written so far, and it appears that I lied when I said I wasn't actually designing a glider. It seems I've laid out a basic scheme for a "Plank style" flying wing. But so far it's only a vague picture in my mind, with a bird-like planform, and a wheel or skid under the fin because it will be tail-heavy on the ground. I believe that a bird-type tail that hinges only upward might make for an easy to flare glider.

I think I'm about ready to abandon the fully prone body position. Maybe a semi-prone position like the Hortens used would be a good compromise. It would be really nice to be able to easily switch from seated/supine to semi'prone, depending on the view I'd like at the time.

A cup holder and a sandwich tray....what the heck, if I'm gonna dream I'll dream big. Howzabout a wind turbine powered microwave oven? Chicken-fried steak, mashed potatoes and gravy with green beans would be nice on a long flight....

So keep those cards and letters comin' folks. Maybe we can make a contribution. Won't hurt to try, so long as we keep a grip on that Handle....

Yours in Flight, Steve
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Re: Should we try a different way? Designwise....

Postby Dayhead » Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:55 pm

So I'm thinking again (Oh No! Run! Flee! Corbin's thinking again, better scroll to the next post!)

Got the earphones on, listening to Sgt. Pepper's, somehow that stimulates thought. I'll get by with a little help....

So anyway the subject of glide path control came up awhile back, and there's flaps and drag 'chutes mentioned, and so I got to thinking about "trim drag". Trim drag, in it's classic sense, is where you have a forward CG and a bunch of decalage.

In Hg, "decalage" surfaces as a combination of twist (washout) and sweep-back in the planform. And of course reflex in the airfoil section plays it's part.

Designers want to reduce trim drag, just as they want to stamp out drag found in any form. Present state of the art addresses this by reducing twist. Well, that's all well and good, but our current means of reducing twist is to increase sail tension.

Hmmm... let's see now... we have an aircraft that is steered using WSIAC (wizzyack), or Weight Shift Initiated Aerodynamic Control. Or in more common language, Billow Shift.

Now if we have a Falcon or Alpha type glider, we have a lot of slack in the sail, which allows for plenty of WSIAC, or wizzyack, or good ol' billow shift. Works great, until you pull the sail really tight, and then it's not such a hot idea anymore. But we gotta pull the sail tight to reduce twist, which we gotta do to reduce trim drag... or do we? Howzabout controlling twist in a different way? Now that's something we might consider...

Hg today, and in fact for the past 35 years, has blindly pursued this line of thought, and along the way we've tried to fix the problem by trying various inventions, the tall keel pocket coming first, then the "floating cross-bar/keel", then the "variable geometry" or VG, a fancy way of saying variable sail billow.

God I love the pipe organ on Mr. Kite, an appropriate name to come up here. Those reading this that aren't familiar are encouraged to give it a try, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6SYwXJVtXc Meanwhile back at the ranch...

So getting back to glide path control. We all like alphabet soup, so we'll call it GPC.

We can easily increase twist in flight using a VG. That's workable solution for aft-swept wings, but I've suggested using a straight, non-swept wing with a bird-like tail. We could "kick up" the tail, increasing decalage, and moving the Cg forward to increase trim drag. I don't know if that would be better than increasing twist on a swept-aft planform, probably about the same, but other factors come into play here.

" Nothing is real, and there's nothing to get hung about". John could really write songs.... I pity the young.

Maybe there really is nothing to get hung about. Maybe the current state-of-the-art HG tech is just fine, maybe I should just shut up, I dunno, just speak up and I'll shut up.

But no, Pg is kicking Hg butt, maybe that's OK with the PGer's but it's not with me. Hg can, and should, do better. I simply refuse to accept the idea that I have to make a choice between light weight and easy handling and a decent glide angle and speed range. It's 2015. We can and should do better.

"4,000 holes in Blackburn, Lancashire. And though the holes were rather small, they had to count them all".

I'm just counting the holes in our beloved sport.

And looking for possible ways of filling them... May God bless our efforts, we could use a little Divine assistance.
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Re: Should we try a different way? Designwise....

Postby magentabluesky » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:24 pm

Just be Happy!!
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Re: Should we try a different way? Designwise....

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:37 pm

Woke up, got out of bed, dragged a comb across my head .....

I haven't been to Dockweiler for a few weeks, but I know Joe has some glider ideas he's been wanting to play with there. You should join us. :thumbup:
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Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you will find that opportunity in your own time.
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Re: Should we try a different way? Designwise....

Postby JoeF » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:30 am

Steve's explorations are wanted in this park! :thumbup: :thumbup: Count the holes. Yet: Count the positive play potentials left in kite HG -- enough to keep many busy with adventures yet.
=====================================================
Off the top of my spirit of alphabet runs this morning, I summarize what is keeping me moving forward on the topic of "different way? Designwise ...:
HG5HHSS and WRSS and eHG5HHSS. There you have it; such alphabet soup wakes me up in the morning way before a comb touches my hair (reserved for once a week).
Unpacking:
HG
5
HH
SS
========================
HG ... implied: kite hang glider
5 : city-regular-passenger busable pack
HH : top of three "wings" : High Hat. The other two: Main wing center. Lower "wing" is a complex: pilot, harness, TCF (triangle control frame near 1908's W. Simon's deal), and SS. The three "wings" have their interplay with each other in a community that nets fun flight experiences.
SS : Safe Splat.
========================
WRSS: Wing running and Safe-Splat
========================
e :: electrical. I am anticipating many branches of HG activity in the future. One branch will choose to do very much less reaching launch by use of ICE cars and trucks, do very much less towing by motors, engines, airplanes, scooters, cars, trucks, boats, but choosing the electrical onboard assist to reach launch altitude (and energy for the e obtained by green means). The expense for eHG will come down. Mass cost for "e" will come down. Profile drag during soaring for having had the "e" launch will be nearly non-existent as things get tucked away cleanly. One may positively choose to reserve use of "e" just for entering HG sessions for hang soaring. e-launch forfeits the choice thrill of foot-launching; however, some will e-launch and then soar to places for top landing followed by foot-launching HG.
========================
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Re: Should we try a different way? Designwise....

Postby Frank Colver » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:09 pm

Dayhead wrote: It should be noted that Tyvek housewrap has been used to make sailboat sails. Seems to me that it could be used as the covering material, or "sail" if you prefer, for an ultralight glider. If an inexpensive and easily worked with material is used, so what if it's only good for a season or three.


Way back, when some of us were still using polyethylene tarp sheet for HG sails, Tyvek was introduced to the world. We immediately saw that it would be far superior to poly sheet for flex wing HG sails but you couldn't buy it anywhere. So I contacted DuPont and inquired about purchasing some of this new Tyvek stuff they had developed. I was told that it was only being sold by the railroad freight car load and they would be glad to sell me a car load. I don't remember how many thousands of sq ft that was, or the price.

Now, as I walk past the rolls of Tyvek at Home Depot, I have to smile as I think back to that time I contacted DuPont about purchasing some. :)

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Re: Should we try a different way? Designwise....

Postby Dayhead » Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:33 pm

It's time to make a list of Priorities and Compromises for a future Hg design. I'll need help with this.

Since safety is paramount, it would be good to take a look at the current state-of-the-art, and point out where the failures are. I'll start with the apparent total lack of pilot protection now non-existing.

For way too long we've seen relatively low-speed crashes end up in tragedy. The pilot runs down hill, pulls in too much, glider gets ahead of him, basetube hits, pilot swings through, possibly breaking upper arm(s), hits head on keel or sail, neck may get broken. Even when large training wheels are used, the nose, not having a wheel, brings the glider to a quick stop.

I've both seen and experienced the above. Also, glider design has evolved shorter forward keel sections. I had a bad landing at Elsinore and got conked on the head by the nose. I recently saw a video made about a lady pilot that suffered brain damage as a result of this.

These relatively low-speed crashes should not present this much danger. Our New Design must begin with this thought in mind. First thought: Has a pilot travel restraint system ever been tried? If so, why didn't it catch on? I know it's easy to come up with an idea, and difficult to foresee possible problems with it. Please share your thoughts on this.

I can see how a strap restraining forward travel of the pilot might help here. A nose wheel looks to be a possible help, although it would also result in the glider continuing down the hill dragging the pilot along. But if the restraint strap kept the pilot off the ground, well.....

This brings up a whole 'nuther idea: Perhaps the nose wheel could be extended on a strut, perhaps a retractable strut, so that the nose wheel sets the glider at a flying attitude when the main wheels and nose wheel are on the ground. At some and perhaps many launch sites, if a pilot attempting a nil-wind launch doesn't/can't run fast enough, the launch could possibly be completed rolling on the wheels. If the nose wheel is connected to the pilot so that it turns when the pilot shifts to the side, some ground steering would be possible.

While we can't help but visualize this stuff being applied to state of the art gliders, I want to remind everyone that we don't necessarily have to adapt existing gliders to these ideas, we can list all of the corrections we deem necessary and then build a whole new type of glider around those ideas.

I'm only able to propose one idea at a time, so I'll close for now. But I think that our low-speed roll control authority is very poor, and I'm anxious to get started on that.

I Googled "Bird Aerodynamics" and "Feathers", spent a lot of time reading. The "covert feathers" and "Eddy Flaps" show promise for reducing the sink rate increase normally found in the post-stall regime. Our New Design must address the piss-poor landing qualities we are still putting up with after all these years.

Yours in the Spirit of Flight, Steve
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