[Bob Kuczewski]

Try this thought experiment.

I've got a gun to you're head. You've gotta choose NOW. You don't get to look at the alternative (singular - the only other alternative out there). You've gotta make your decision based upon what you know of me, my behavior, the validity of my logic, your understanding of my engineering, the expressed opinions of others... versus what you know of USHGA, my other enemies, and the record. Pick one.

I still don't know enough to pick. I don't really know you at all. I don't know towing very well - since I've never done it. Many many others have given this a lot of thought, and it would be irresponsible for me to arbitrarily pick one side without hearing all sides (which is difficult now because of the way Jack and Davis have run their forums).

But I do know myself, and I know that I don't like people putting guns to my head. So without any better information, if you're holding the gun ... I pick USHPA. If USHPA is holding the gun ... I pick you.

So here's the more practical question ... "How well does holding a gun to people's heads work out?"

[Bob Kuczewski]

I'm wondering if there's a story associated with your response to the buddy accusation.

A bit ambiguous. Doesn't really tell us your take on the state of the universe at Kingsville.

Several months ago we started work on a new ushpa chapter in SW Tx.
Of course there is need for founding members.
I dropped DH an email asking if he wished to be a part of our new club, and how it would help the quality of instruction and availibility of flying opportunities.

Well, totally unknown to me, it was the morning after the death of his student, or within a day or so. It didn't set too well with DH, and he sent me a blistering reply. I was perplexed at first, but soon put 2&2 together.

I'd been down to Kville a couple months earlier to platform tow with him and some students. The tow platform had been built by another of his students. It scared me @ 200lb. Another HG pilot did fine at 140lb, and Donnell, after a reinforcment was applied to the weak section of #3 knotty 2x4. A failure would have resulted in the pilot and glider being dragged down the runway, since the nose release was still connected.

In both cases of the deaths of beginner/very novice last year in Tx, the respective instructor was in the area only ~6mo of the year.

Sam,
SWTHG

I think Sam's comment is pretty important. We need to build a community before we can exert any influence on anything. I think many of us on this forum have spent a lot of time working for our goals, and I believe we've found that it's difficult to do alone. It's easy to dismiss one person as a kook. It's a lot harder to dismiss 230 (about the size of the Torrey Hawks).

Right now I see about 4 active members in this topic. If that's all we end up with, then it won't matter whether the 4 of us agree or disagree. The outcome will be the same. So whether we like it or not, the "human physics" of the situation is that we need to attract more people to these discussions if we want them to be effective at changing anything. We won't do that by slinging attacks and foul language. That only gives the others (who want us to fail) more ammunition to keep the rest of the community away.

[TadEareckson]

Bob,

I'm buried at the moment so just a quick response fer now.

A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT.

Make it a neutral party holding the gun. Make it a water pistol on a hot day. Make it a nonbinding best guess that you can reverse any time you want.

We hafta make arbitrary pick one or the other without complete information decisions ALL THE TIME - especially in flying. Do we do this field 'cause the grass is shorter or that field 'cause it's bigger and there may be less of a rotor issue? Sometimes we don't know what the best decision would've been even after we've replaced the downtube.

If you see one person using a bent pin release and another using a straight pin who are you more likely to trust? Whose word are you more likely to take on issues that you may not understand?

Pull up USHGA's SOPs and read the aerotowing requirements. Forget what you do or don't know about towing. Do they make any sense? Is there any logic behind them?

Pull up a paragraph of anything I've ever written on anything and try to punch a hole in it.

And just the fact that USHGA, Davis, and Jack ARE working so hard to silence people should be a pretty good indication of which card to pick.

Real guns to real heads...

Sometimes we need real guns pointed at people's heads to keep other people safe. They work. They work on the highways and they work in the air. With guns in the right hands pointed at the right heads a bit under a decade ago the Manhattan skyline wouldn't have undergone the abrupt change it did.

And we've got people in hang gliding who are perfectly willing to continue killing people just 'cause they don't wanna hafta deal with the recall of dangerous equipment. They don't even pretend to have any delusions of noble missions.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Bob,

I'm buried at the moment so just a quick response fer now.

That was a good post Tad. Thanks.

A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT.

Make it a neutral party holding the gun. Make it a water pistol on a hot day. Make it a nonbinding best guess that you can reverse any time you want.
...
If you see one person using a bent pin release and another using a straight pin who are you more likely to trust? Whose word are you more likely to take on issues that you may not understand?

From what I know now (which is still fairly limited), I think the straight pin would be superior to a curved one. So on that thin shred of evidence, I'd be more likely to trust the person recommending it.

Pull up USHGA's SOPs and read the aerotowing requirements. Forget what you do or don't know about towing. Do they make any sense? Is there any logic behind them?

It's funny you mentioned that. Between these posts, I was thinking that maybe a good next step would be to take a look at the existing SOPs to see what we would recommend changing (great minds think alike?). I think that's a concrete step that everyone would see as positive. I think that deserves a new topic that starts with the existing SOPs (please post them) and opens a discussion on what should be changed. I think you would be a great person to start that topic.

That also got me thinking about the roles that the US Hawks might play in the future. The long term future, of course is more difficult to see because it depends on whether or not we can actually gain a sufficient number of members to make any difference ... in anything!!

Fortunately, the short term is much easier. I think we can provide a forum where all opinions are heard (we're doing that already). We can also pool our collective wisdom to make recommendations for better, fairer, and safer practices. I think you can certainly help there as well.

But it's clear that right now we can't dictate anything to anyone - because we're effectively nothing at this point. So the first step is to do things that will help us grow so that all hang gliding thought isn't effectively controlled by Jack and Davis. Pilots need to think of the US Hawks as a place where they will want to visit because we offer them more views than are tolerated on hanggliding.org or ozreport.com. Until we do that, we're just twiddling our thumbs.

Now in the long run, we will have to face the question as to whether towing systems (like seatbelts and helmets) should be mandated by an organization or not. We may find ourselves in disagreement there (at least in degrees), and that will be a good time to have that debate. But right now, we're not mandating anything to anyone anyway, so the discussion is moot. Let's focus our attention on providing a concrete recommendation that moves the ball forward with regard to towing safety.

How does that sound?

[TadEareckson]

We need to build a community before we can exert any influence on anything.

We need to be really sure we know what we're talking about before we even start trying to exert any influence on anything.

A community is a group. Group intelligence is calculated by taking the individual with the lowest IQ and dividing that figure by the number of members. I learned that in an issue of Glider Rider a LONG time ago. And it perfectly explains how we ended up with USHGA, the Oz Report, and the org.

So we gotta be real careful about how we build and structure our community and manage communications. I don't really want Head Trauma over here and policy being determined by taking the midpoint of our opposing positions. We'd end up with a zero every time.

It's easy to dismiss one person as a kook.

So how come this single kook 'caused the whole structure of the national organization to go so totally ballistic two years ago? Rachel Carson was pretty much a lone kook with a typewriter. You know how much damage a lone kook with the email address of a good lawyer can do? Good lawyers commonly cause other people to put guns to their own heads and pull the triggers.

Right now I see about 4 active members in this topic. If that's all we end up with, then it won't matter whether the 4 of us agree or disagree. The outcome will be the same.

That's absolutely wrong. Even on Jack's rag with all of his scumbags busy attacking me I was able to get through to someone on the opposite side of the planet who wasn't even participating in the discussion. Just because what I wrote made sense to him he was able to abort a launch at the last moment upon catching a missed leg loop. Yeah, it wouldn't have killed him if he had gone ahead but the next time he might catch two.

One lone kook who knows what he's talking about and can communicate it is infinitely more valuable that five hundred sheep with excellent social skills.

And one lone kook without all the distracting bleating is probably gonna be even more effective. That's the underlying strategy of Kite Strings. Marc Fink has got plenty of other sandboxes he can pee in without adulterating our message.

From what I know now (which is still fairly limited), I think the straight pin would be superior to a curved one. So on that thin shred of evidence...

This is NOT a thin shred of evidence. This is a SQUARE WHEEL. I knew it was a square wheel the INSTANT I first laid eyes on one. I didn't need to load test it. And whenever I meet a pilot on the flight line I just look at his shoulder. If I see a fat barrel I know it's got a bent pin inside and I know I'm looking at an idiot.

Similarly when I saw my first Wallaby release I didn't hafta wait for it to start killing people to know that it would. And this has absolutely nothing to do with tow experience. It's just common sense.

...I was thinking that maybe a good next step would be to take a look at the existing SOPs...

Nobody's ever looked at the existing SOPs. Nobody makes the slightest effort to comply with them. And they sure as hell weren't gonna give mine a sideways glance. They were too busy figuring out ways to have me killed.

The long term future, of course is more difficult to see because it depends on whether or not we can actually gain a sufficient number of members to make any difference ... in anything!!

One person can make a HUGE difference. Donnell was dismissed as a lone kook and immediately kicked out of the USHGA forum - which was called a magazine back then. So he created his own forum and xeroxed and sent it all over the world and established the global foundation for hang and, later, paragliding towing. The problem was that he actually was a kook but nobody ever fully figured that out - 'cept for Mike Lake and his crowd, and they got silenced and written out of the history.

I think we can provide a forum where all opinions are heard (we're doing that already).

Early today - Greenwich time - one of our Hawks guys made on Jack's rag a recommendation, based solely on his OPINION with nothing it the way of reality to back it up, which has gotten people killed before and will undoubtedly do so again.

I despise opinions. Opinions have killed more people in hang gliding than rotors, dust devils, stalls, lockouts, midairs, and hook-in and sidewire failures combined. I don't wanna hear anyone's opinion on anything and I'll reciprocate by not expressing any of mine. Except, of course, on albino Samoan Unitarian baroque accordion players, their rotten little Cairn Terriers, people who hide them in their attics, and people who don't report people who hide them in their attics. Otherwise I just wanna talk about math, physics, data, history, and serial killers.

We can also pool our collective wisdom...

"Collective wisdom" sounds suspiciously like "group intelligence". See comments above.

But it's clear that right now we can't dictate anything to anyone...

But judges and juries can. That's were most of my money is right now.

Pilots need to think of the US Hawks as a place where they will want to visit because we offer them more views than are tolerated on hanggliding.org or ozreport.com.

In my opinion - oops - the problem is just the opposite. In aviation we should tolerate just one view of a stall. On the Jack and Davis Shows they encourage different views and takes on stalls and tend to ban people with the proper one.

Now in the long run, we will have to face the question as to whether towing systems (like seatbelts and helmets) should be mandated by an organization or not.

I don't know what you mean by that. You don't need a seat belt or helmet to drive a car or fly a glider and you're probably never gonna have one come into play enough to matter. You NEED a towing system to tow - it's already mandated.

Kinda like mandating a glider. If you don't have one you're not gonna be gliding - at least not very well and not for very long, as a lot of people who stand on launch ramps and assume they're hooked in have found out.

We don't mandate glider designs either. We don't specify materials, nose angles, aspect ratios, wingspans, or colors.

We DO mandate MINIMUM STANDARDS for gliders. We mandate minimum strength, stability, handling, and performance standards. That's why, outside of the odd tumble, a risk we all sign on to for the privilege of flying hang gliders, nobody's scared of the gliders and they tend not to kill us unless we give them a lot of help.

We also mandate minimum standards for the thing that points the glider in the right direction to get it back on the ground in one piece.

But we don't have ANY meaningful minimum standards for tow systems. And you don't hafta search more than about a page back on ANY glider forum to understand that, consequently, EVERYBODY is, justifiably, scared SHITLESS of them.

We don't even really hafta write the standards. Sir Isaac Newton did a pretty good job of that three hundred years ago. We just need to express them in short sentences using words of two or fewer syllables so pilots can understand them - as I did two years ago - then decide whether we're gonna start enforcing them ourselves or continue to let Mother Nature do the job.

I'd offer an opinion on that issue but I've already gone over my quota on this post.

P.S. Speaking of guns and seat belts... The guy holding a gun to your head is not necessarily your enemy. I had a guy point a gun at my head, write a twenty-five dollar ticket, and tell me to buckle up before I resumed my trip. I am now more likely to do what I should be doing in part because that guy is probably still out there and, if not, I know he's got friends.

[ZackC]

Tad,

In the absence of anything better, I advise people to use barrel releases at the hips (over three-strings) for platform towing.

Based on your recommendation, I take it you think that barrel releases are superior to Koch releases for platform towing. Why?

Zack

[TadEareckson]

To be honest, I wasn't thinking of the Koch when I wrote that.

But the sentence still works 'cause I haven't stated whether or not the Koch fits the absent something "better" category.

Steve Kinsley - 1996/05/09

Personal opinion. While I don't know the circumstances of Frank's death and I am not an awesome tow type dude, I think tow releases, all of them, stink on ice. Reason: You need two hands to drive a hang glider. You 'specially need two hands if it starts to turn on tow. If you let go to release, the glider can almost instantly assume a radical attitude. We need a release that is held in the mouth. A clothespin. Open your mouth and you're off.

We could do something like that. Joe Street is currently gearing up for production of a really cheap really light really good cable actuated barrel release. We could put a Mosquito throttle control on the other end and run the assembly from our teeth to one of our hips and have a really safe platform tow release at the cost of some cable that might be difficult to get out of the airflow after we're off.

But let's throw that out and just look at Koch, barrel, and three-string - all of which "stink on ice".

As you and I have discussed, if you blast off the truck fast with a lot of tension and don't do anything stupid it's pretty tough to find evidence of people getting in enough trouble - the kind requiring you to release - to be worth mentioning.

I'd go with a pair of barrels 'cause they're light, clean, and cheap and I could stow them if I got some spare time.

If I knew or expected that I'd get into trouble shortly after launch I'd go with Koch 'cause - while I still hafta take a hand off - it's a lot easier and quicker to slap a paddle than to find, grab, and pull a barrel.

So if you wanna be safest go with a Koch (they make a one stage as well - or you could use the two as a one).

If you're a clean freak and are willing to add a little risk for a little benefit... Do the math.

Shane would've been fine with either one - or even the three-string that everyone else was getting away with.

Footnote: I HAVE swatted a Koch in second stage mode and failed to blow it but it wasn't a critical situation and there was so little tension that I didn't even know I wasn't off. I'm sure that if the line had been loaded I'd have felt what was going on and been off in an extra half second.

[Free]

Go Tandem's Brush With Death Experience
Another 'bent pin' barrel release design failure nearly kills famous tandem instructor,.. and student?

Excessive tow force bends pin and binds the release.
Instructor is lucky, student lives..

"Is it possible to release with a barrels (protow release) without any tension except the weight of a part of the tow rope ?.. "

Bart (gotandem):
Most of the time. But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use 2 hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

I wonder if Bart was smart enough to figure out the inherent design flaw of bent pins and switch to straight, or is he still locked into the Malcolm brain warp, my way or the hi-way?


From the highly censored http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033

[Free]

Newest member "Deltaman" !

Glad to see that you signed up. Jump in at any time.

This site isn't censored and there has actually been some research and development beyond 'stepping' on a barrel release line to see if it opens.

'Old head' dogma parading as wisdom on Jack's site can get you killed. Jack A. has a fragile ego that doesn't like being challenged so Tad Eareckson, a hang glide release expert isn't allowed to post there.
The best you may get there is a Jim Rooney and to Rooney it may be tomatoes versus tomahtos but if your life means much you should dig a little deeper. The truth of the matter is that curved pin barrel releases make as much sense as putting toxic industrial waste in your drinking water. (something I hear that Europe mostly doesn't do)

Knowledge is power and a lack of knowledge can get you killed.

Curved pins bad. Straight pins better.
Ask us how.

Welcome to the group.
Warren

[TadEareckson]

DELTAMAN!!!

Thank GAWD you made it over here! I was going berserk watching you talking to those total idiots on the Jack Show and was about to have one of my moles PM you to save you from them.

Curved pins idiotic. Straight pins excellent and things of beauty.

I'll respond to your issues and the traffic from over there as soon as possible but for the time being please check out:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrel ... 141352219/

The solutions to ALL of your issues can be found there.

And I'd be delighted to have you check out and/or register at:

http://kitestrings.prophpbb.com/

Thanks much for recognizing the problems and asking the right questions.