[Keith Beebe]

So Rick..should we make a list of what we think the material facts are !!!!

I think ::

1) We should have known who made commercial contributions and how much. This may have altered our decision to contribute !

2) We should know specifically how these commercial agreements are organized. What will their profit be and when will it be paid..

3) Are commercial investors provided any protections from loss that differ from individual pilots--important---yeh !!

4) Should pilots have been given the choice to include or exclude commercial operations in the RRG--they will want a profit--

5) If the RRG fails who pays what ?? Has this been laid out clearly ???


OK----What else should be in the list or scratch my stuff if you think I'm off course


PS---Rick---Yes I am one of the dumb pilots that paid into USHPA// RRG in the the noble name of """FREE FLIGHT""" without thinking about it until I became aware of the impending slaughter of some good people. I think most of the pilots in USHPA still don't understand this mess. I'm trying to catch up !! Please excuse me for being very late.

Also....Most of the pilot community doesn't know that you guys exist. You need to change that.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Everything seems okay to me. No red flags.

Also....Most of the pilot community doesn't know that you guys exist. You need to change that.

Try this ...

Sign in to hanggliding.org (register for an account if you don't have one), and start a topic something like this:

Topic Title: USHPA Alternative?

Hello Fellow Hang Gliding Pilots,

I just learned about a relatively new hang gliding organization named the "US Hawks" at: http://ushawks.org. They are working to give pilots a choice in national hang gliding associations. They are currently issuing lifetime ratings based on proof of existing ratings.

I'm not sure if they're on the right track or not yet, but I think having choices is always a good thing.

What you'll find is:

  1. The link to ushawks.org will be instantly changed to something else.
  2. You may get a warning not to dare posting anything about the US Hawks on that site.
  3. You may even get instantly banned with no further discussion.

But don't take my word for it. Try it and see (maybe use a throw-away name in case you ever want to join with your preferred name).

When I was growing up, the term "iron curtain" was in common usage. Unfortunately, in the sport of hang gliding, that term is still quite applicable.

[Rick Masters]

In many instances, I see some very good people who have made an error in judgement.
Things went wrong at a particular juncture.
That juncture was combining two dissimilar sports and renaming it "freeflight."
Freeflight is not a sport.
Freeflight is what happens if you drop something and it goes sideways.

The US Hawks are not going to convince outsiders of their error by talking.
Recriminations will accomplish nothing.
Shouting "foul!" on polarized forums? A waste of time.
Anyone who chooses to listen will naturally come here.
The Hawks must provide an alternative to a collapsing system.
The Hawks and its Chapters must lead by example for others to follow.
Securing sites using recreation law.
Standing on individual responsibility.
Providing training and ratings the old way.
Only this will save hang gliding.
The part that needs saving, that is.

[Rick Masters]

So Rick..should we make a list of what we think the material facts are !!!!

Yeah. Before you sign the check.    
What you can do now is check on how that $600,000 offering is doing.
It's a material fact to people with a net worth of a million bucks.
They're hoping that works so they don't have to do another round of "Help Save Freeflight" fundraising.
If you don't see a bunch of buys, prepare to mortgage your home.
Remember, they need $2MM in the kitty to stay solvent. They can't touch it.
Claims are paid out of the foam on top. Not much there, last I looked. About $290k.
Operating expenses for a contested claim or two could probably wipe that out in a year.
Defense of aerotow ops against outraged retirees and other silly stuff could eat into it.
Wrongful death -- don't even think about it. Don't even start counting.
(Think a man and a wing. And a hill... See picture at left. Oh my, I'm such an anachronism!)

Operating expenses are important material facts going forward.
Lawyer fees. Accounting fees. Registration fees (for each state). God knows what else.
And there's a management fee that can go up to 5% of the kitty for the head honcho.    
I was curious about that one when Haas ran off and left Murdoch, so beloved by the hang gliding community, in charge.
All the hang glider pilots voted for him, I guess.

etc.

I was referring to the SEC Form D. Sometimes you might find a Sneaky Pete in there.

[Keith Beebe]

...Keith

Hi NE pilots

Please take a moment to think about what the new PASA-USHPA regulations and fees will do to individual instructors and small schools. IMHO we are going to loose a lot of great people here and it's time to say and do something about it. Thoughts ?? Please read below.....

Keith

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HG.org

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:02 pm Post subject: #10
I'd like to make my points, so bear with me. We are losing all of our instructors (!). It's all controlled by ONE guy who seems to have borderline credibility, but a fat wallet from his opportunity. And NOBODY wants to change anything (it's a monopoly, who in power would want to change that?). I can't fathom what USHPA has gotten in their heads saying "we could have done it this way or that way, but we chose to do it this way". Does anyone else see what's wrong with that? Our good faith lead to a total strong arm over our sport . And it seems PASA is the huge hole sinking the ship right now. What is this company? Where is their credibility? So far, I've counted 6 instructors (just from traveling to Colorado and LA) that have just about quit because of these ridiculous standards set by PASA, as well as the cost (which should really be included in the RRG). They're quitting because they can no longer make a profit on flying. One instructor even estimated 90% of schools and instructors will quit or be out of business by the end of the year! Something really needs to change. There are no checks and balances, no separation of power, and no other choice! I won't get into the nasty legal issues that USHPA and Pasa are creating (yet). There needs to be a second "PASA" at the very least. And at best, a better, or at least a second, organization for pilots (USHPA is really overpowered now that they are also an insurance company). I'd like to hear from you guys about this.

I'm not just sad, I'm furio

Read more: http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.ph ... z4CmoJmHQQ

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Re: Pure madness, throwing in the towel
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 13:27:14 -0400
From: Mike H <mikesgnflyn@gmail.com>
To: Keith Beebe <kbdvm@verizon.net>
CC: gtet595@aol.com, peterjudge45@gmail.com, flyboy5131@yahoo.com, amyroseboom@yahoo.com, cacinick@gmail.com, airherm13@gmail.com, hangglidenewengland@live.com, sky_canter@hotmail.com, hometoast77@gmail.com, tom.lanning@gmail.com, meflyhgpg@gmail.com, brookse53@yahoo.com, kellogg773@gmail.com, flyhighpaul@gmail.com, jgborntofly@gmail.com, ejonathan@comcast.net


I totally agree. Maybe if we get some ideas going we could include all the regional members too.

Mike H
Phone Mail

On Jun 30, 2016, at 1:10 PM, Keith Beebe <kbdvm@verizon.net> wrote:

> They will have to listen if enough of us speak and act as a group. Keep talking ....spread the word. Lets make that list of possible actions. I truly believe it would be much better to deal with this now.
>
>
> Keith Beebe
>
>
>
>
>
> Jun 29, 2016 12:46:40 PM, mikesgnflyn@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Hi Guys
>
> Believe us when we say we are with you on this. If there was anything I could or can do I would.
> I’m happy to help in anyway I can.
> What bothers me though are the assumptions that go on about mine or anyone else’s thoughts and or actions. Just come out and ask.
>
> See Pauls statement below too.
>
> Mike H
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Paul Voight <flyhighpaul@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Pure madness, throwing in the towel
> Date: June 28, 2016 at 8:00:51 PM EDT
> To: Mike Holmes <mikesgnflyn@gmail.com>
>
> Oye Vey !
>
> Honestly.... I feel for these guys... and I was pretty vocal against the direction the RRG was headed... as you might remember, particularly on those dumb-ass conference calls.
>
> But....it's in place. It's going to be a flop... (IMO).... and it will need to be re-structured to make it more attractive to instructors.
>
> Otherwise....the RRG will kill the sport. We'll have insurance.... but no instructors.
>
> What a s*** show , eh?
>
> Feel free to share....
>
> Paul
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: GTET595@aol.com
>> Date: June 26, 2016 at 12:18:02 AM EDT
>> To: mddroy@gmail.com, mbcarr@comcast.net
>> Cc: kbdvm@verizon.net, peterjudge45@gmail.com, flyboy5131@yahoo.com, amyroseboom@yahoo.com, cacinick@gmail.com, airherm13@gmail.com, hangglidenewengland@live.com, sky_canter@hotmail.com, hometoast77@gmail.com, tom.lanning@gmail.com, meflyhgpg@gmail.com, brookse53@yahoo.com, kellogg773@gmail.com
>> Subject: Re: Pure madness, throwing in the towel
>>
>> I don't have any faith in the Regional Directors of NY or New England. One is part of the good old boy network and the other wants to be. Don't get me wrong I like Paul Voight. But I believe the biggest reason he has been on the USHPA board is to protect his school and the schools of his friends.
>>
>> People in USHPA has been pushing to change the organization to represent only instructors since I was on the Board or longer. And I mean only the big schools if you fit into their click. This was the biggest problem I had with USHPA when I was on the board and my fight to represent the members caused a lot of friction on the board. They did not want the average members or small school except for their money. They constantly had different rules and practices for certain big schools verses all others schools and members.
>>
>> This crap has been in the works for a long time. Certain people at USHPA finally found a way to get it done.
>>
>> Gary Trudeau
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 6/25/2016 9:36:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mddroy@gmail.com writes:
>>
>> I have mixed feelings on this.
>>
>> I am unfortunately sometimes most famous for being a complete a** trying to prevent the waiver in the late 90's. To this day I can't reconcile why hang pilots need so much insurance and waivers and chapters and ratings when most other high risk sports do not. Maybe we became too mainstream. Maybe we cared about conforming too much. Maybe we are in denial about the risks we take on and it didn't matter what path the sport took before its inevitable demise.
>>
>> We did keep insurance out of Massachusetts State Parks use since 1977, but I acknowledge that should be easy to do on all state and federal public lands, (and much more difficult with private owners. )
>>
>> I suspect marketing math has been done and a group of people in CO have determined they/the sport will survive if it collapsed into several large schools.
>>
>> There are a range of issues before us. I don't see a refund of our donations helping us much in the long term. But we should meet and discuss our common concerns, objectives, and options. The USHGPA, and the NY/New England RDs need to hear our dissatisfaction.
>>
>>
>> mdroy
>>
>> Via iPhone
>>
>> On Jun 24, 2016, at 11:15, Matthew Carr <mbcarr@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Agreed, but we need to have a unified voice, and actions to address this issue - how can USHPA not recognize this is effecting the viability of our sport?
>>>
>>> Does it make sense to work this through Paul Voight, or try to get a petition starting requesting refunds for our RRG donations?
>>>
>>> Perhaps a general meeting of MA, CT, NY clubs/schools is in order - to come up with some game plans and alternatives?
>>>
>>> Matt
>>> On 6/24/2016 8:30 AM, Keith Beebe wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I will join you Pete. I think it would at least be a statement of how we feel.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 6/24/2016 5:36 AM, Peter Judge wrote:
>>>>> Keith and Nick - You are both absolutely correct! I am thinking of asking for my money back. Make that, insisting on getting my money back. I would rather support local operations directly than give money to these people.
>>>>>
>>>>> THIS IS FREE FLIGHT???? I do not think so.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 12:00 AM, Keith Beebe <kbdvm@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like to know if anyone on this list thought that after the money was collected to form the RRG......... regulations and new fees would come out that would be devastating to instructors// small HG operations ??? My guess is no.... and I admit that I did not have a clue. I was giving money "TO SAVE FREE FLIGHT". I would be willing to bet that the majority of the pilots in this country had no idea this would happen and many still don't see what is happening !!
>>>>>
>>>>> SO...I have just one question :::: is it legal to solicit donations without full disclosure of intent. This was billed remember ::: "SAVE FREE FLIGHT"---NOT ---"WIPE OUT THE LITTLE GUYS"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Guys....if you think I am wrong please tell me why ! Keith
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>>>> Subject: Re: Fw: Fwd: Pure madness, throwing in the towel
>>>>> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 23:02:59 -0400
>>>>> From: Keith Beebe
>>>>> To: Nick Caci
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey Nick... I'm very sorry !!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Best ---see you around Keith
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/23/2016 10:07 PM, Daniel Guido wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Daniel Guido ;
>>>>>> To: flyboy5131@yahoo.com ;
>>>>>> Subject: Fwd: Pure madness, throwing in the towel
>>>>>> Sent: Fri, Jun 24, 2016 2:02:58 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Matthew Carr <mbcarr@comcast.net>
>>>>>>> Date: June 23, 2016 at 4:49:06 PM EDT
>>>>>>> To: Nick Caci <cacinick@gmail.com>, Mark Hermann <airherm13@gmail.com>, Rhett Radford <hangglidenewengland@live.com>, Peter Judge <peterjudge45@gmail.com>, Ross Landy <sky_canter@hotmail.com>, Heath Woods <hometoast77@gmail.com>, Tom Lanning <tom.lanning@gmail.com>, "Guido, Daniel - Field Staff" <daniel.guido@DairyMarketingServices.com>, Mark Droy <mddroy@gmail.com>, Jon Atwood <meflyhgpg@gmail.com>, Brooks Ellison <brookse53@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Pure madness, throwing in the towel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you Nick, understood. I am still having a hard time understanding how USHPA could let this go through knowing how it might affect the many smaller schools that have kept our sport going for so long. If the RRG and PASA certification are the only way forward then it brings serious doubt as to our future.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Has anyone from USHPA been able to better describe/justify this situation and the impact on smaller schools? Seems we are once again at a not so positive turning point...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 6/23/2016 2:13 PM, Nick Caci wrote:
>>>>>>>> Since this past week or so looking into various scenarios of how I can stay in the game regarding Hang Glide New England, I have come to an obvious conclusion that at lest for this season I'm done. The logistics, costs and all the leg work is too daunting to say the least. Not to mention that its way late into this season to get all the ducks in a row.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I should place some of the blame on me for not seeing the writing between lines a little sooner for Rhett's sake. All this came too fast for me this busy Spring to fathom in time and I naively thought that my Rogallo instructor insurance membership was good till November, my USHPA renewal date. For this reason I have expressed my sincerest apologizes to Rhett and to anyone affected.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But at the same token, I don't feel I should have to take on the responsibility to become a personal PASA Solo School instructor with all the leg work and expenses just to fit in with an excising business that has placed it self out side of the PASA system. I'm not saying that I agree with that PASA/ RRG is doing, but I've explained already it's my only legal avenue of protection for now.
>>>>>>>> And just forming an LLC may separate personal liabilities from business, but one still has to fend off law suits and with all those expenses.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Another thing that's not all that clear is, even if I was a PASA certified, one may still not be RRG covered if working at a none PASA insured site. There just too many grey areas.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now to all those frequent flyers of Tanner, it has been brought up the possibility of forming a club and even perhaps paying for Rhett to be a PASA school and a insured site. Just know we're talking thousands of dollars because it's a little more complex then just a solo instructor and a hill. Money talks but mostly walks. Then throw in an unstable Tanner airport and you get the picture.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I hope for now that Rhett can continue tow up solos this year. And perhaps can find a fearless instructor too. I think the best way we can help out HGNE for now is to instead of throwing money out the door to those money grabbing systems, just throw it directly to Rhett. Tow Fee + Plus Fund Club
>>>>>>>> Also know that HGNE is operating perfitlly legal with all the FAA exemptions gotten through the ASC when comes to tandems operations.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't have many email contacts to all those who like to fly at Tanner. So Matt and Mark, if you could possibly forward this email to others especially the CT club.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just know that that flying tandems is the most rewarding endeavor I have ever done and miss it dearly.
>>>>>>>> All is not lost just on hold I hope
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Nick Caci

[magentabluesky]

103.5 Waivers.
No person may conduct operations that require a deviation from this part except under a written waiver issued by the Administrator.

103.7 Certification and registration.
(a) Notwithstanding any other section pertaining to certification of aircraft or their parts or equipment, ultralight vehicles and their component parts and equipment are not required to meet the airworthiness certification standards specified for aircraft or to have certificates of airworthiness.
(b) Notwithstanding any other section pertaining to airman certification, operators of ultralight vehicles are not required to meet any aeronautical knowledge, age, or experience requirements to operate those vehicles or to have airman or medical certificates.
(c) Notwithstanding any other section pertaining to registration and marking of aircraft, ultralight vehicles are not required to be registered or to bear markings of any type.

First, there is no legal requirement for a license, certificate, or rating to operate a Hang Glider in the United States of America under the authority of the FAA who is the controlling government organization of these matters.

There are no laws restricting instruction or teaching hang gliding to an interested party. In my humble opinion, there is conflicting documentation from the FAA that makes it somewhat of a grey area as to whether you can charge for instructing. I would suggest, if you wish to charge for hang gliding instruction, get a letter of authorization from your local FAA office that states what operations you can charge a student for.

As for tandem instruction, you just need a waiver from the FAA. Anyone can request a waiver. Submit your qualifications, resume, safety record and experience to your local FSDO office requesting a waiver for tandem instruction. State this is for the safety of the sport.

If an instructor has been operating under the USHPA tandem waiver, the FAA would be hard pressed as to why it would not issue a waiver to an individual who has a history of safe tandem operations under a previous waiver (ie. USHPA).

If it is a reasonable request, the FAA should grant a waiver to FAR Part 103 for tandem instruction.

You can still give Hang Gliding instruction and teach pilots the safe operation of a Hang Glider, which is the point of passing on the skills of flight to the next generation. The only thing you will not be able to do is issue them a USHPA rating.

The FAA requires no ratings.

Michael Grisham
magentabluesky

[Rick Masters]

In my opinion, Michael Grisham provides the most important and "unfiltered" interpretation of the FARs.
The USHPA comes in a very distant second, if one considers the USHPA relevant. I don't.

[Rick Masters]

Mike, I think it's important for U.S. hang glider pilots to be aware of the German sailplane model that has been in existence since the early glider experiments from the Wasserkruppe in one form or another.

Mitglieder wie etwa in seinem Segelclub in Braunschweig zahlen eine Grundgebühr von monatlich 30 Euro, die dann auch den Unterricht von ehrenamtlichen Lehrern umfasse.
http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article108495146/17-Jaehrige-stuerzte-wohl-ohne-Funkkontakt-in-den-Tod.html

Members [in the] soaring club in Braunschweig pay a monthly fee of 30 euros, which then could also include lessons by volunteer teachers.

[Keep in mind the sailplane club monthly fee supports tow planes, club gliders and their associated expenses. A U.S. hang gliding club, in comparison, would have few expenses. No USHPA dues, no shared gliders, no insurance payments, no site fees, but maybe a beer kitty.]

U.S. hang glider pilots need to move toward this very successful model immediately. The sky isn't falling. All that is happening is the new corporate model that developed under the USHPA, which uses pilots as cash cows and measures success by gross numbers of participants, is failing. This is actually the best thing that can happen for the sport of hang gliding. Under the German sailplane model, which is not the German hang gliding and paragliding model, instead of businesses actively recruiting potential pilots for profit, only eager newbies driven by a desire to fly sailplanes would seek out clubs and chapter experts willing to provide training to those they deem proficient simply to continue the sport they love. Of course this would work for U.S. hang gliding. The transition will be tedious and in some cases painful. Some flying sites will be lost, others gained. End the end, the core of U.S. hang gliding - once again an autononomous sport - will emerge stronger and safer than ever.

[dhmartens]

I think it all started in 2005:

http://ozreport.com/docs/InstructorInsuranceCover.pdf

United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association
PO Box 1330
Colorado Springs, CO 80901
Dear USHPA Member
As you know, in 2005 the USHPA adopted our first comprehensive strategic plan with a goal to grow the sports of
hang gliding and paragliding. We have spent a year gearing up for implementation of new programs and services to
assist and better serve our members.
At the Fall 2006 Board of Directors Meeting held in San Francisco California, the board of directors of USHPA
voted to adopt a new benefit for instructors in the form of an insurance program for instructor liability. One of the
key components for growth in our sports is instructor support and site preservation- this new policy addresses both.
This new Instructor Insurance Policy (IIP) will cover damage that occurs during the teaching of hang gliding and
paragliding. Due to the nature of this coverage, IIP will be mandatory for all USHPA instructors, however our
insurance company will also broaden the coverage under our existing site policy to cover landowners for claims
related to instruction.
With this broadened coverage, instructors can open training hill sites that are off-limits now due to liability risk.
They'll be added as insured sites by local chapters, in the same way that our existing insured sites are handled.
Cost of this new policy will be spread out between members and instructors because we all will benefit from having
more students.
More information is included below. Please contact your Regional Director for more information about this exciting
new USHPA benefit.
Sincerely

I was studying if possible we should endorse Felipe Amunategui to be president of ushpa. Their could be a few reasons for this but that is another thread.

I think what went wrong was when they decided to promote the sport they pushed paragliding over hang gliding. Marketingwise it made sense. Hang gliding was "fashion" or "dead wood" paragliding was a "fad" or "shooting star" . The only problem was I am a paying Hang glider protected by California fraud measures and I don't want my money to be used to kill hang gliding and promote paragliding which I view as a completely different sport which also is very dangerous and kills "Gods Children" with out proper disclosure about the PGDMC.

[Rick Masters]

...paragliding which I view as a completely different sport which also is very dangerous and kills "Gods Children" with out proper disclosure about the PGDMC.

Re-posted from Other Dangerous Sports News

On July 12, 2015, a search party found the body of a soaring parachutist on the Langeflue massif in Switzerland.
Yesterday, July 11, 2016, a joyriding "instructor" died as he was giving a ride to a 22-year-old thrill-seeking female tourist in Spain.
This marked 114 paragliding fatalities worldwide during that one-year period for which I have records.
I have no doubt that my information remains incomplete.
This indicates to me that there have never been overall effective improvements in paragliding safety.
How could there be? Without an airframe, all paragliders are subject to collapse in turbulence.
Paragliders frequently kill their helpless falling occupants by unexpected collapse in turbulence within the zone of altitude between about 300 to 10 feet,
where emergency deployment of the reserve is less effective or completely ineffective.
I have defined this zone of no recourse as the Paraglider Dead Man's Curve.



This means that soaring parachutists, regardless of their skill, are gambling with their lives below 300 feet.
Take off. Landing. Ridge soaring.
Soaring parachutes remain - by absolute fatality numbers - by far, the most dangerous form of parachuting.

Hang glider pilots frequently kill themselves by pilot error.
This means fatalities can be reduced through better training.
Unfortunately, with the advent of paragliding, emphasis on hang gliding safety appears to have markedly decreased.
This should be unacceptable to all hang glider pilots.
A key element in this downturn is the lack of a national hang gliding organization where "safety" means hang glider safety.

This points out a huge difference in the level of risk that participants in these two sports are willing to accept.
Those considering entering one sport or the other should be clear in their minds about this level of risk.