[wingspan33]

I'm on the financially disadvantaged side and haven't sent money to anybody! This proves that giving some $ to a forum "owner" doesn't protect you from getting screwed over.

[dhmartens]

I was out at Sylmar today discussing the issue of your expulsion. Many had no opinion but they now know my opinion. I was saying I am the next one to be banned, some thought JoeF might be next. I disclosed very little of my 16 point retaliation list to keep the element of surprise. Great flying day but winds picked up later.

Doug

[Bill Cummings]

UOP Sport Clubs will not encourage, allow or tolerate attempts from any individual to retaliate, punish, allow or in any way harm any individual (s) who reports a concern in good faith. Such actions against a complainant will be considered a violation of the UOP Sport Club Safe Sport Guide and grounds for disciplinary action, and may also be subject to civil or criminal proceedings.

Patterned from the above paragraph below is a suggested SOP for the US Hawks Hang Gliding Association

US Hawks Hang Gliding Association will not encourage, allow or tolerate attempts from any individual to retaliate, punish, allow or in any way harm any individual (s) who reports a concern in good faith. Such actions against a complainant will be considered a violation of the US Hawks Hang Gliding Association Stand Operating Procedure, (SOP), and grounds for disciplinary action, and may also be subject to civil or criminal proceedings.

It looks like we wandered away from this proposal without a   motion   followed by a   vote.  
Something like this I would like to see brainstormed and take on more importance than just Standard Operating Procedure (SOP).
What I mean is to nail the language down and call it something like a, Core Operating Principal (COP)
Where changing it at a later date would require either a 2/3rds or 3/4 membership (not directors) vote.
A seperate example would be if someone later wanted to change the name from the, United States Hawks Hang Gliding Association to, United States Hawks Hang Gliding and Rocket Suit Association the bar would be set so high as to make it a waste of time to even think about doing it.
Later edit:
Now that I think of it even the United States Constitution that had the protection, provision that, "Congress shall make no law," turned out not to be strong enough. (NDAA, NSA, HLS , TSA, warrant-less wire tap, --- etc.)

[eagle]

~ The Good News is you'll be spending the weekend
with a large group of people ~

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[Bob Kuczewski]

Great cartoon Eagle!!!



With regard to the whistle blower program, I just reviewed the topic in the private Board Discussion area. It looks like it got derailed when Bill and I both had jury duty, and we never got back to it (sorry ).

The tricky part of any self-oversight is keeping it independent of the people in charge ... and yet not letting it get so powerful that it ends up being the people in charge. Checks and balances are tricky.

I like what you've got so far, and here's a version that substitutes "member" for "individual(s)" and with "allow" removed from responsibility of members. I also substituted "ethics" for SOPs (since we don't have SOPs yet). I also substituted "for reporting" instead of "who reports" because the latter seems to grant immunity to a person for all misdeeds by simply becoming a "whistleblower". The protection shouldn't include immunity for things they really do wrong or it will be abused.

The US Hawks Hang Gliding Association will not encourage, allow, or tolerate attempts from any member to retaliate, punish, or in any way harm any other member for reporting a concern in good faith. Such actions against a complainant will be considered a violation of the US Hawks Hang Gliding Association ethics, and grounds for disciplinary action, and may also be subject to civil or criminal proceedings.

Ultimately it still depends on good people somewhere in the system. While there's a lot of judgement involved, it's not too bad. What do you think of those modifications? Would you accept them as a friendly amendment (even though there's no motion yet)?

[Craig Muhonen]

When I first found the Oz Report, I was so impressed by the quality and work that went in I sent Davis $100. He did not return it after he banned me from the forum, which I now regard as a form of petty theft.

That is very ironic. I can't remember the exact amount, but I sent a similar amount to Jack on Hanggliding.org - in cash. I felt it was my way of giving back. Look how that turned out as well.

There's a saying that "you just can't be nice to some people". I guess it depends on the people.

By the way, the Board is currently working on drafting a whistle blower policy in response to this topic.

================================================
Didn't quite know where to post this , but when I read Ricks words "petty theft" I figured this was as good as anywhere.

Two issues here, having to do with TPGP, whistle blower & petty theft.
As far as blowing a whistle goes it does not seem to work. When you are in a very small and very crowded airspace, with only a small take off and landing window, and inexperienced "pilots" and "joy riding" tourists all around you, A little whistle ain't gonna' do sh**. There are so many rules for each speed and type, of flyer, it is confusing (not my words) Looking at different paragliding and hang gliding forums, I see that many of the people that fly TPGP are very disturbed about the way the "flight director" seems to care only about his "cash cow" instructors. As far as "blowing the whistle on safety violations and corruption at TPGP, ...well ....They would rather first take your money, throw you to the ground and arrest ya, and "bann you from their club.
They have gotten away with this "low class operation" since they showed up in the 90's with a "parachute" in one hand and Saul Alinsky's book, Rules for Radicals in the other, and literally "petty thieved" , "Hang Gliding", and said boldy , that they were going to become a large part of it, ...step back.

Rule #10 "if you aggressively push the negative hard enough and long enough, it will push through and become a positive".

Rule # 12.. "Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it".

"Gliding" has a long and proud history around the world, and at Torrey since 1930. It is so well documented in Art, Film, Movies and "air shows"
Where thousands and thousands gathered to be a part of flying, and seeing "hand built" aircraft. When Hang Gliding started in 69'-70', by a bunch of surfers for the most part, a new era of recreational pilots, captured the public eye. The new sport "mushroomed" beyond belief, and within 10 years or so,
Had created clubs and fly ins, and hang gliding competitions all across the country and the world.
Parachutes have their own long history, born out of sheer terror while jumping from your burning aircraft, or jumping into a battle zone. recreational parachuting has gained popularity because of the "hype", and aggressive advertising. Parachutes have saved countless lives and continue to this day, but I do not believe that they have any claim to " Hang Glidings History".
Next thing we know skydivers, wingsuit divers, and base jumpers will demand that they be called pilots, instead of illegal exhibitionists. (u$hpa must love them)
u$hpa should take the "h" out, and go their separate way.
US HAWKS is holding the magnifying glass, it's up to the rest of us to "look", at the "petty thieves" and Do The Right Thing.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Thanks for reviving this topic Craig.

From earlier in this topic:

. . . Patterned from the above paragraph below is a suggested SOP for the US Hawks Hang Gliding Association[/b]

US Hawks Hang Gliding Association will not encourage, allow or tolerate attempts from any individual to retaliate, punish, allow or in any way harm any individual(s) who reports a concern in good faith. Such actions against a complainant will be considered a violation of the US Hawks Hang Gliding Association Standard Operating Procedure, (SOP), and grounds for disciplinary action, and may also be subject to civil or criminal proceedings.

With very minor corrections (made above) I would also suggest such an addition. Let's take it into Committee "land" for further discussion.

Agreed.
(Thanks to Doug for bringing this to our attention)

UOP Sport Clubs will not encourage, allow or tolerate attempts from any individual to retaliate, punish, allow or in any way harm any individual (s) who reports a concern in good faith. Such actions against a complainant will be considered a violation of the UOP Sport Club Safe Sport Guide and grounds for disciplinary action, and may also be subject to civil or criminal proceedings.

Patterned from the above paragraph below is a suggested SOP for the US Hawks Hang Gliding Association

US Hawks Hang Gliding Association will not encourage, allow or tolerate attempts from any individual to retaliate, punish, allow or in any way harm any individual (s) who reports a concern in good faith. Such actions against a complainant will be considered a violation of the US Hawks Hang Gliding Association Stand Operating Procedure, (SOP), and grounds for disciplinary action, and may also be subject to civil or criminal proceedings.

It looks like we wandered away from this proposal without a   motion   followed by a   vote.  

There have been several variations proposed. Here's one of them:

The US Hawks Hang Gliding Association will not tolerate attempts from any individual to retaliate, punish, or in any way harm any individual who reports a concern in good faith. Such actions against a complainant will be considered a violation of the US Hawks Hang Gliding Association's Terms of Service and grounds for disciplinary action.

Maybe it's time to revisit this and pick the best we have at this time?

[eagle]

The future threat has already been placed by Gabriel Jebb
... Their next move is to abolish the Illegal $200 annual pass for local residence.

$10 a day for every one that flys, (criminal collection of funds)
Our Glorified Leaders are Robbing America by illegal contract
Setting the pace to comercialize free airspace on a National Level,...
The process of turning all pilots into cash cows

A free flight Pass, It's a violation of my civil and public freedoms...
Selling me access when it states in the lease that public has the right to access any part of our free park. (not the exact words)

Changing the lease in near secrecy, by our City Assets depatrment to suit their needs.
Breaking Laws and making Public Access illegal under self imposed City Council Administative Law, is a crime (with Zero democracy)
I was threatened By Gabriel Jebb, the same day we met City Realestate Assets , and the prices went up
This Proves the Cities Council Corruption and coheation is deep.
(It's no longer a Joke. people are dead and still under a threat)

The pass Includes further cost of buying insurance, a magazine and ID card not required by Law
for common recreational hang or even para pilots..

THE TRUTH IS
Our leaders can't survive without ripping off our freedoms for profit...
Why can't the City have normal snack shop business,..
and a normal club that dosent violate my freedom or safety

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P.S. Sounds like our leaders want to keep the LIE and cover up fantasy going
The City Councils, Torrey Pines Gliderport and the USHPA are run by criminal enterptrise in coheation

The David Jebb Police Crime Family....
Lays and Waits at our historical park with the threat violence and a City Police threat to Pay or be arrested for treaspassing and Shut the F**K Up about it.

You could hide posts from pilots, it wont make it go away.
Just drown it in Hawk rhetoric subjects, just like the city council
And then you're part of the ongoing crime

Yours Trully .... THE EAGLE

[Bill Cummings]

Trial Board Members. There is a vote going on in the Private Discussions.