Banned Posts from SWTHG Forum

[TadEareckson]

Al Hernandez - 2010/09/11

[HHPA] Question

1. When doing a platform tow as soon as the vehicle reaches speed, and the wind indecator reads 25, or 30 mph, the pilot pulls the release, the glider starts to go up shouldn't the pilot be pulled in just incase the weak link breakes??????

2. Or should the pilot just let the glider pop off and fly off the platform all the way up???? I myself think that as soon as the pilot pulls the release the pilot should be pulled in already, and have control of the glider in stead of just letting the glider pop off off the platform. I also think that the pilot should be pulled in till he or she get to a good altitued then the pilot should let the glider fly at trim and just correct all the way up.

Gregg Ludwig

I can provide a short answer now ..but the full answers are provided during hands on flight training. The forum is a great source of info but must be accompanied with flight training. Yes, pulled in slightly during initial climbout and be ready to compensate if the towline becomes disconnected. With my rack, like many, the glider will not lift off the rack without a slight pushout.

Bob Fisher - 2010/09/12

Al,

in a truck tow launch, you very definitely need to be pulled (a lot) in as you release. Not pulling in considerably increases your chance of a weak link break as the glider "pops up" since it significantly increases the speed of the "pop up" and subsequently the acceleration of the drum and this increases the load on the link as you pop up.

There is no equivalent loading on an aerotow launch - the weak link loads are steady.

Bobb Loper

Al, there are 3 things that determine the "pop up" during the launch of a platform tow:
a) The relative air speed. (Wind and truck speed)
b) Position of bar at release.
c) Attitude of nose. This attitude can be increased or decreased by length of the nose release line (angle of wing to horizontal)

In an open space like a runway, a gentle release with gentle climb at origin may be desirable, but there are other conditions where a rapid climb out of trouble may be best. At the Brookshire location, the narrow road was bordered on each side by a bar ditch with a barbed wire fence and in some cases, mesquite trees next to the fence. A gentle launch in a cross wind meant a longer time in the danger zone. If a glider is launched at a higher speed a broken safety link would still allow the glider to pop up high enough to clear the obstructions and land in the open field behind the trees.

Tad Eareckson - 2010/09/16

I got a question too.

1. You're flying an aircraft over which - even in free flight - you have mediocre control authority.

2. You're tying it to a rope - which makes it dangerously roll unstable.

3. You're ELECTING to use a release system which - in an emergency - requires you to always compromise, often fully surrender any of what may remain of your already pathetic level of control.

4. You're occasionally taking off in thermally crosswinds from a pencil thin runway bordered by ditches, barbed wire, and mesquite trees.

Why the hell are you throwing into that can of worms a weak link which blows a hair's breadth over your dialed in winch tension?

Does the adrenalin rush you get from quadrupling the ambient danger level work that much better to cure erectile dysfunction than all those spam remedies upon which I've been wasting my money?

If someone can give me a halfway intelligent rationale (i.e., something MUCH better than the above) for this insane tradition I'll immediately PayPal him a hundred bucks.

Dave Susko

Sooooo, your point is: Sport flying is dangerous????? Anyone who's been a free flight pilot for any length of time has probably figured out a way to rationalize away any of the danger. I don't even bring up hang gliding in casual conversation anymore. I'm tired of all the silly questions. "What happens if you launch and there's no air?" A wuffo in a bar once asked me. It's about managing risk. If you lose control and crash, there's quite likely something that you could have done as the pilot to prevent it, including simply deciding not to fly in the challenging conditions. Besides what else am I going to do? Lay in my bed in a bomb shelter with a lifetime supply of disinfectant and suck my thumb? I think this was quoted in the magazine recently, "Add years to your life by adding life to your years."

Henry Wise

If you launch and there's no air - you've got more problems than just flying! How did you get there, set it up, and launch without any air? I once was timed at 3.25 minutes for holding my breath, but that would be far too long!

Zack C

Tad, most pilots in this club use weak link configurations that have been tested to break at over 600 lbs. I'm not sure who 'you' in your post is meant to be, but I don't think it applies to anyone in this group.

Henry Wise

That's one (minor) reason why I prefer to foot launch off a hill. As far as the weak link's concerned - it's there for protection in case the winch locks up (been known to happen, all be it rarely).

Bobb Loper

Hi, Tad.

You asked, "Why the hell are you throwing into that can of worms a weak link which blows a hair's breadth over your dialed in winch tension?"

You did not quote any message so I conclude that with your mention of mesquite trees that you are referencing my recent post to a beginner explaining conditions that can warrant an increase in relative wind before platform launch.

I don't believe we have mentioned a "weak" weak link in our club discussions. I haven't and I have reason to think that our members are using links from 1 1/2 G to 2 G, but I have seen and experienced new 2 G links, tow lines and releases fail at any given moment during the launch.

In your past posts to this club, you have been very explicit in your belief of sturdier links, so that ground does not need to be re-ploughed and I have no further comments.

Thank you for your concern,
Bobb Loper
Member HHPA

Mick Howard

And it's there to protect your equipment from excessive loads. It seems that Tad is not a fan of towing. If it wasn't for towing most Houston area pilots would not get any airtime. We all strive to make towing operations as safe as possible but there is a risk to everything we do in life including hang gliding. Is towing more hazardous that mountain launching! Everything is relative. Personally I enjoy all forms of launching hang gliders including mountain flying which I would do more if we had flying sites closer to Houston.

Mark Moore

[HHPA] Tadd

Ahh. Isnt this site for HHPA members only? Why is my e-mail account getting bombarded with uneducated, obviously incompetant e-mails this morning. Forgot who is the moderator, but could you please eliminate this issue. Thanks in advance.

Bobb Loper

Tad is not uneducated. He has probably spent as much time as any pilot studying safety issues relative to platform towing. This site is not limited to HHPA members. Every pilot has questions that should be answered but once or twice through the question should be enough.

Michael Hoffman

I figured Tad was just having some fun on a rant about the way we get in the air. If I was inside on a beautiful day like today, I might have time to shoot out something to get you guys fired up. The shop calls.

Mark Moore

Really? His post doesn't read that way. "mediocre control authority" "erectile dysfunction". If he was harassing some of his buddies...My bad. I havent been able to fly for 7 or 8 weeks due to a neck issue, so I'm quite cranky.

Mark Moore

I just decided to check the USHPA membership roster to make sure I wasnt pissing off an H4/P4 who had fifty years and thousands of hours of flight time, and the only Tad I could find is a P2. Bob, is the pilot who has been studing safety issues relative to platform towing as much as any other pilot?

Charles Schneider

>
I got a question too.

1. You're flying an aircraft over which - even in free flight - you have mediocre control authority.
<

And your point is?

>
2. You're tying it to a rope - which makes it dangerously roll unstable.
<

I am taking medicine for my instability.

>
3. You're ELECTING to use a release system which - in an emergency - requires you to always compromise, often fully surrender any of what may remain of your already pathetic level of control.
<

I hold the tow rope in my teeth (what's left of them), therefore my pathetic flying abilities are exemplified, not compromised.

>
4. You're occasionally taking off in thermally crosswinds from a pencil thin runway bordered by ditches, barbed wire, and mesquite trees.
<

Yeah, but I always close my eyes. Besides, mesquite is the best for BBQ.

>
Why the hell are you throwing into that can of worms a weak link which blows a hair's breadth over your dialed in winch tension?
<

I can bite a lot harder that a hair's a**.

>
Does the adrenalin rush you get from quadrupling the ambient danger level work that much better to cure erectile dysfunction than all those spam remedies upon which I've been wasting my money?
<

About those spam remedies, do they really work?

>
If someone can give me a halfway intelligent rationale (i.e., something MUCH better than the above) for this insane tradition I'll immediately PayPal him a hundred bucks.
<

Since my rationales are at least half-way intelligent or less...SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!

Bobb Loper

MarkM,

I don't know his rate and it does not matter. I have read some of his comments on safety links and from my experience, he is right on money - maybe a little obsessive on safety - but that is not bad. If you go look up membership in USHPA, you will not find my name either. I have shifted my flying to trikes and USHPA does not offer any advantages to me. I still stay active in our local club and spend time with our aerotow club but refuse to spend your hard earned money (my social security) on an organization that will not offer insurance to trike pilots. Don't cut short any paraglider pilot that tows - well, his intelligence may be somewhat impaired by rag wing bias LOL.

Mark Moore

We differ in opinion thats for sure. But I have a great deal of respect for your opinion.

Tad Eareckson - 2010/09/17

Dave,

No, my point is not that sport flight is dangerous. Anybody who doesn't understand that hang gliding is dangerous should've had the tubes disconnected three months ago. My point is usually something along the lines of it's about ten times more dangerous than it needs to be.

Like you said, it's all about managing risk. Have we maxed things out in that arena?

Zack,

If ya'll are really using 600 pound weak links I have renewed hope for life on the planet. But in my neck of the woods they're using 125 pounders and calling them 520s.

Could I trouble you - or anyone willing - for a description of these weak links? (Material, knots, installation configuration...)

Bobb,

Just to be clear...

With the probable and possible exception of the release and weak link respectively, I have absolutely no problem with that tow launch scenario you described. I'd wager that it's about a dozen times safer running a glider out of the slot at Woodstock on a typical flying day.

But in all four of the initial posts this thread you hear a well founded concern about losing the tow just off the truck. In three of them the weak link is mentioned specifically.

And Bob Fisher brings up the issue of weak link versus drum acceleration.

Mick says the weak link is "there to protect your equipment from excessive loads." If, by "equipment" he means "glider", and doesn't add anything to the definition, he is (refreshingly) one hundred percent correct.

I think everyone's in agreement that in that launch situation...

1. You want lotsa power and climb rate to blast through the danger zone fairly quickly.

2. You really don't want the weak link to blow but you hafta maintain enough airspeed so that you're not totally screwed if it does.

So - as you point out - there's a bit of a tradeoff thing going on there.

OK, let's try an experiment...

1. Lose the weak link and make sure everything between the truck and your keel will hold to three thousand pounds.

2. Lose the wind to simplify the conversation.

3. Take the truck up to 40 mph and pull the pin.

4. Deliberately try to break the glider.

I'd predict that it would be physically impossible to get beyond a fraction of what it would take. (Ever see photos of what they do to gliders during ground testing for HGMA certification?)

So what I'm saying is that we've got plenty of things to worry about at launch and winch inertia doesn't hafta be on the list. And can you really blow a weak link about four times the set tow tension as a consequence of winch inertia?

>
...but I have seen and experienced new 2 G links, tow lines and releases fail at any given moment during the launch.
<

How is that possible?

You're setting the tension for - what - about 150 pounds?

Let's call a glider 250 pounds. Two Gs - 500 pounds.

I don't know what inertia can do to you. Can anyone give me a figure or an educated guess?

When these alleged two G weak links are blowing are the pilots FEELING two Gs? Feeling over three times normal tension? Or is everything going fine and all the sudden - POP?

There was a time in hang gliding - before Donnell came along - when people understood what losing the line could do to you and they took that stuff seriously.

It is one hundred percent inexcusable to have an uncommanded release actuation. That little malfunction can - even though it rarely does - kill you just as dead as a sidewire failure.

And, for the same reason, towline and weak link failures should be freak occurrences and regarded as strong evidence that people aren't doing their jobs very well.

Henry,

4:40 - but that was a long time ago.

>
As far as the weak link's concerned - it's there for protection in case the winch locks up (been known to happen, all be it rarely).
<

Lemme quibble with that statement.

Yes, on a payout system a winch lock-up should be a necessary prerequisite for a weak link failure. Assuming that the extra stress you get as a consequence of drum inertia is no threat to the glider - which I do - there's no other way the weak link should be able to blow.

And, yes, it's there for PROTECTION. But you haven't defined protection.

The vast majority of the bozos who tow hang gliders think it's there for THEIR protection. It ain't. It's there ONLY to protect the glider and ONLY to protect it from from positive overloading. It couldn't care less if the glider - and you - rocket up, whipstall, lock out, go inverted, tuck and fail negative, or dive vertically back into the runway. You can do all that stuff just fine with a half G weak link never breaking a sweat.

And just because the winch locking up is a prerequisite for blowing the weak link doesn't mean you should EXPECT the weak link to blow when it does. All a winch lock-up means is that you've instantly converted to static tow mode. And lotsa weak link "protected" folk have found themselves majorly screwed on static tow. Ask John Woiwode just how much damage you can do with tension remaining under 0.8 Gs after the line jams.

Charles,

>
And your point is?
<

If you're gonna take extra risks in hang gliding...

Do it by flying under bridges, pulling loops, and launching and climbing in violent thermal conditions.

Don't do it by not knowing what you're doing and/or using crappy equipment.

>
I hold the tow rope in my teeth (what's left of them)...
<

That sounds like a pretty good concept. You might, however, wanna think about incorporating some mechanical advantage device to step the tension down a bit.

>
About those spam remedies, do they really work?
<

I've tried scores of them - all totally USELESS! All combined they don't hold a candle to the Sears catalog - and that's free.

>
Since my rationales are at least half-way intelligent or less...
<

Sorry, the deal was for better than. I was saturated with or less decades ago.

Zack C

Tad, the standard configuration here is a loop of 205 leech line tied with a fisherman's knot and attached to the end of the release with a lark's head (with the knot at the attachment point).

The weak link loop is pulled through a loop at the end of the tow line and attached back at the release, creating four strands total.

One of our members tested various weak link configurations years ago and reported: "I posted a spread sheet in 2004 on this site (still there) which shows the results of tension testing the standard weak link material (205 leech line).

The break strength depends on age, type of knot used, cross sectional diameter of link and of course number of strands. In general the 3 strand link was good from 260 to 370 lbs, a 4 strand link broke above 600 lbs." I don't see the file anymore however.

I've not tested breaking strengths myself. Weak link breaks are very rare for us and generally only happen at the end of tows (when tension is higher). I don't think I've had a weak link break since I started flying with a radio and requesting pressure reduction when I felt tension rise.

Al Hernandez - 2011/06/25

On one of his not counted flight, Martin broke a weak link at low altitude, causing an 80 ft free flight on his glider, the left wing was up, flew off to the right side of the runway, glider flew over the airport fence, over trees, and house, for a little while, He managed to get his Falcon in control and landed safely back on the airport runway... WHAT A RUSH ! what can I say S#it Happens. Good maneuvering skills Martin.

Yeah Bobb, once or twice SHOULD be enough. But it almost NEVER is.

It especially never is when people are taught a lot of crap on Day One and continually bombarded with dangerous misinformation decade after decade after decade in classes, clinics, flight operations, competitions, magazines, textbooks, websites, discussion groups, and national regulations.

But I'm not hearing you get all bent out of shape when this message:

If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

is repeated untold tens of thousands of times with THESE:

2009/08/31

Approximately ten emergency vehicles were parked all over the runway.

The EMTs were carrying a (presumed) pilot out from under the wreckage of a hang glider next to the runway. They loaded the victim/stretcher into an ambulance, but didn't drive away. Stayed parked on the runway for at least a half an hour. I don't yet know what the outcome was.

Later heard that he was evacuated by helicopter because of a head injury.

Keith P. Skiles - 2011/06/02

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.

kinds of results.

How come?

And I'm ALSO not hearing you speak up when it becomes blindingly obvious that once or twice WASN'T enough and people in your friendly and incestuous little club are continuing to put themselves in potentially lethal situations. So what the hell good are your friendly and incestuous little club and you actually doing?

[TadEareckson]

moved

[TadEareckson]

Until I stumbled across your first post (2011/07/03 14:08:32 UTC) here yesterday I didn't know to whom I was talking.

DarthVader - 2011/07/05

The main question is where did he get his glider from

...followed by 142 question marks.

So now a question occurs to ME...

Al Hernandez - 2010/10/18 20:12:14

[HHPA] Hang gliding fatality

One of Dr. Hewett's students Died Wed. The guy has had only a few lessons, but Dr. Hewett had no idea this guy went out and bought his own payout winch and hang glider somewhere, and went to go fly it on his own with inexperinced people got pulled up, over flew the towline and nosed in to the ground died on inpact, some say that he was trying to cut his line with a hand knife and that did not work.

>
CHANNEL 5 NEWS

EDINBURG - Police are investigating the death of an Hidalgo County lawyer killed while hang gliding in Edinburg.

Lemuel Lopez died along the stretch of Constitution Street and Highway 281 Wednesday evening. Police say he was in a hang glider being pulled by a pick-up truck.

They say Lopez lost control of the glider and crashed in a nearby field.

We're told the 45-year-old suffered serious head injuries.

Justice of the Peace, and close family friend Charlie Espinoza says, "He was a loved individual. He was very professional. He cared about his community; he cared about his people but most of all he cared about his family. I know that he will be dearly missed."

Funeral services are still pending.
<

Henry Wise - 2010/10/18 20:24:20

Sad news, Al. Does anyone know anything about him - where he got his equipment from. Did he over-state his abilities to whomever he purchased the equipment from?

Bruce Mauzy - 2010/10/18 21:51:42

Yes, very sad news. 45 years of age is too young to die.

And, yes, it would be interesting, and possibly educational (in the sense of how do we stop this from happening again), to know where he got the winch and glider.

Shane Nestle - 2010/10/18 22:56:39

I'm with Jeffo. He sold him a glider in April. The pilot was getting instruction from Hewett. Don't know where the tow rig and release came from.

Jeffo told him he was available for whatever instruction he needed.

Gregg Ludwig - 2010/10/18 23:56:10

Henry-

Just to be sure, I don't think you need to worry about what equipment Jeff sells to whoever. The reports are sketchy, but with any type of glider tied to the bumper of a truck with a short towline driven by an inexperienced tow driver the results are predictable.

Al Hernandez - 2010/10/19 03:57:42

[HHPA] Police are turning to hang gliding experts to try and solve the case. New Clip

http://www.krgv.com/mostpopular/story/F ... GMnOA.cspx

Why are you asking from whom he got the glider eight and a half months after the above exchange?

Another couple of questions...

DarthVader - 2011/07/07

You were not there when Martin Launched from Pack. So you can only imagine as you always do, if he did a hang check or not. You are never there Tad. The only ones that get the most flight in this area is Zack and Martin.

1. Just how important is geographical proximity with respect to the issue of knowing what's going on?

2. Is it really a great idea for you to be commenting that my analyses are only and always based upon my imagination?

Comments...

1. This ain't a great sport for people with memory problems and/or real short attention spans.

2. This also ain't a great sport for people who are real choosy about the amiability and personality types of the individuals from whom the get information.

[TadEareckson]

http://kitestrings.prophpbb.com/post35.html#p35

[TadEareckson]

Doug Hildreth - 1990/09

1990/07/05
Eric Aasletten
24
Intermediate
2-3 years
UP Axis
Hobbs, New Mexico

Reasonably proficient intermediate with over a year of platform tow experience was launching during tow meet. Home-made ATOL copy with winch on the front of the truck. Immediately after launch, the glider pitched up sharply with nose very high. Apparently the angle caused an "auto release" of the towline, who completed a hammerhead stall and dove into the ground. Observer felt that a dust devil, invisible on the runway, contributed or caused the relatively radical nose-up attitude. Also of concern was the presumed auto release which, if it had not occurred, might have prevented the accident. Severe head injury with unsuccessful CPR.

Dave Broyles - 1990/11

I talked to a lot of pilots at Hobbs, and the consensus was that in the course of Eric Aasletten's accident, had a weak link break occurred instead of the manual or auto release that apparently did occur, the outcome would have been the same. Under the circumstances the one thing that would have given Eric a fighting chance to survive was to have remained on the towline.

What's the plan for being "READY" for a premature release in a situation like that? Have a contact number for your next of kin in your wallet?

[TadEareckson]

Pilgrim,

I knew Eric and considered him a friend.

That means you're not Jerry Forburger. Good.

I was there when the accident happened.

This was by no stretch of the imagination an "accident". This was the second murder of a 24-year-old by USHGA and US hang gliding culture using the same nasty weapon within a span of ninety-nine days.

1990/03/29
Brad Anderson
24
Novice
Flight Designs Javelin
platform tow
McMinnville, Oregon
head injury, ruptured thoracic aorta

"Strong novice" pilot with a lot of flying and some truck tow experience. With instructors present launched and rose to fifty feet over truck. Pushed out hard enough to release and continued to push out after release. Whip stalled and dove into the ground. Died instantly.

Pushed out hard enough to release...

bulls***.

...and continued to push out after release.

bulls***.

This is the kind of crap we get to read when we let the perpetrators write the crash reports and the pilot ain't around to tell what REALLY happened.

And we read exactly the same kind of crap in Jerry's vile "Crooked, Tight and Low" article in the 1990/10 issue of the magazine with the absolutely OUTRAGEOUS cover photo from that rotten event.

I miss Eric and think of him often even until this very day.

I didn't know him at all and there have been very few consecutive days going by in the past half dozen years or so in which I haven't thought about him.

May God Bless Eric.

Is that all we're gonna do? He sure wasn't the last person to die for such stupid similar reasons. I went to a funeral of one of our locals who bought it along with his tandem clinic student six years and twenty days later and a US ski team member was killed along with his idiot "instructor" a bit over nine years after that.

And STILL this incredibly stupid sport can't get it through its thick evil skull that there are downsides to dumped lines and low tension.

Sam,

That is a sad tale of events...

I'd stick with outrageous.

...first I've heard of it.

Every once in a while USHGA graces the public by making magazine archives available on DVDs. Some of the articles are worth spending more than ten or fifteen seconds skimming over.

...most of the reason for my inactivity was because of hearing how dangerous towing could be.

Driving to the grocery store can be insanely dangerous. But the extent to which it actually is is mostly under the control of the person doing it.

One thing that is true about the early bias is that there are more things that can go wrong when using launch devices.

If they're junk - yeah. If not there's no question whatsoever that tow launching is many times safer than trying to come off of a ramp and/or out of a slot.

But that hasn't stoppod our sport from useing the different towing methods.

Most of which have been certifiably insane since at least the early Seventies.

For myself, the best way to manage the risks involved, is fly frequently.

Got news for ya, Sam. When you go up with equipment that won't keep you on and let you off tow instantly at your sole discretion that management strategy is gonna have the precise opposite effect. That's exactly the approach that got the Columbia burnt up eight plus years ago and a Dragonfly driver killed at Ridgely on Saturday morning. You're supposed to fix the problems before you go out to play.

Now lemme try this question AGAIN with a couple of small modifications...

What's the plan for being "READY" for a premature release in a situation like Eric's - other than exposing yourself to the risk more frequently, being more talented and special than Eric, and/or trusting in God to help you pull out of the whipstall before you hit the runway?

A five word answer will probably do for this one.

Al,

Hope Martin gets more altitude than he did on a month and two days ago.

[TadEareckson]

Wattsamatta Sam, not a fan of this sunlight thing?

I would STRONGLY suggest that it is actually you who are doing more harm than good and you ENGAGE in forum discussions and not fly yourself or others until you figure out what you're doing.

[Nobody]

Wow, finally dropped off the 1st page.

I was working up some harmony for Rooney Tunes.

[Bob Kuczewski]

This topic contains posts which have been banned from the SW Texas Hang Gliders Forum at the request of their President.

This post is a log of the activities required for that removal.

October 20, 2011 - Began removal of all posts by TadEareckson.

October 20, 2011 - Finished removal of all posts by TadEareckson.