[DarthVader]

This web site is intended to be more than just a hang gliding forum. I'm hoping
to grow it into an alternative national hang gliding association that will
hopefully provide ratings and insurance for our members. But that will take
people joining us, so please spread the word. Please post to other forums with
links to the US Hawks. Please ask your local clubs about joining the US Hawks.
Please consider starting your own local chapter of the US Hawks.

The pilots that I have hard talking about this all feel no need for another association if there is already one USHPA, Bob. They feel that if it is working why fix it? And most are happy with USHPA most of these guys just want to fly and don't really care what happens on the inside or what they do.

Though I feel like Obama "Isn't time for a chage?" But I am Just One, I see the corruption and the intrust of why it should not be chaged it would effect alot of people that are in business with the USHPA do you see what I see?

[Bob Kuczewski]

Hi Al,

I really don't know the answer. I really don't know if there's enough interest to build a new organization. But I will always know that I did my best. Sometimes that's the only reward.

Practically speaking, it will be very difficult. Look at the people on this forum. Many of us are here for different reasons, and many of those reasons are not consistent with each other. Some of us want a new organization that supports greater freedom. Others want an organization that's more tight fisted. Is there any hope to reconcile those camps in one organization? I don't know.

I like to think that what holds us together is a desire for fairness. USHPA has a long history of unfair policies and decisions. Jack and Davis have a similar history on their respective forums. So the one "glue" that could hopefully bind us together is a thirst for fairness and due process. But is that enough? I don't know. I really don't know.

But what I do know is that I've done what I can to make it happen. If no one joins me then I'll still have the satisfaction of knowing that I did my best. As I said, that might be my only reward. That's also the reward that belongs to everyone who's come here and made a sincere effort to make it work. You all have my thanks.

Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski

[JoeF]

Take a listen to Rick at cometclones as he gives rationale for getting the "P" out of USHPA:
http://www.cometclones.com/mythology2011.htm
I will here make an effort to summarize his argument:
The "P" is evolved and has not made the grade to be worthy of being an item to fly; the "P" will actuarily and reputationally drag framed HG to bad times; have orgs that are fully dedicated to framed HG. The time is now.

Suggested: A full study of Rick's presentation.

[TadEareckson]

Some of us want a new organization that supports greater freedom. Others want an organization that's more tight fisted. Is there any hope to reconcile those camps in one organization?

False dichotomy.

1. There are at least one of us who want both.

Frank Sauber was killed on 1996/04/28 because USHGA *ALLOWED* him to be towed on dangerous equipment and he was towing to reestablish proficiency in a needless and dangerous procedure - foot landing - USHGA was *FORCING* him to demonstrate to qualify for a rating which would allow him the GREATER FREEDOM to fly high sites unsupervised.

Tighten up or loosen where appropriate and he lives. Hell, go totally nuts and do both.

2. As above, greater tightfistedness applied where appropriate can - and virtually always DOES - result in vastly enhanced freedom for the vast majority of its subjects. There's very little that deprives us of freedom like massive internal damage or a severed spinal cord.

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
10. Hang Gliding Aerotow Ratings
-B. Aero Vehicle Requirements

06. A release must be placed at the hang glider end of the tow line within easy reach of the pilot. This release shall be operational with zero tow line force up to twice the rated breaking strength of the weak link.

Because a total asshole like Matt is given the FREEDOM to violate the crap out of even this hopelessly fuzzy "regulation"...

Diev Hart - 2011/07/14
Santa Cruz, California

I have had issues with them releasing under load. So I don't try to release it under a lot of load now. Solved my issue but I am not doing tandems.

...and a total asshole like Diev is also given the FREEDOM to violate the crap out of the regulation and put it in the air, he's allowed (by Sir Isaac) to release from tow ONLY in situations in which he's not in the least danger of breaking his stupid freaking neck (i.e., his equipment will work fine as long as he doesn't NEED it to).

05. A weak link must be placed at both ends of the tow line. The weak link at the glider end must have a breaking strength that will break before the towline tension exceeds twice the weight of the hang glider pilot and glider combination. The weak link at the tow plane end of the towline should break with a towline tension approximately 100lbs. greater than the glider end.

And because the Towing Committee a**holes REFUSE to be tight fisted enough to specify a mininimum of so much as 0.8 Gs, total a**holes like Jim Rooney...

And yes, get behind me with a "strong link" and I will not tow you.

...and the Flight Park Mafia scum that spawned him can deprive ALL PILOTS of the FREEDOM of towing at SO MUCH AS 0.8 Gs - either by:

a) refusing to tow them; or

b) making sure the front end weak link is adequately fuzzed (because the word "should" gives HIM the FREEDOM to conduct himself in the dangerous, irresponsible, incompetent manner in which he DOES).

So the one "glue" that could hopefully bind us together is a thirst for fairness and due process.

I would hope that competence - and/or a thirst for it - would become the primary glue binding us together - and predict that a lot of fairness and due process would flow from it.

[JoeF]

Perhaps soon have an open non-org "Waiver" document. Have it be very formal, neat appearing, bordered as a certificate and room for several witness signatures. A pilot signs; witnesses sign. Presto, one has a Waiver to show property owners. "I sign away all powers to sue anyone, any corporation, any institution, any estate, any government, ...) because of my hang gliding actions. I will make good any damage I might do to others and their properties (no instance in my life yet has resulted in injuring others or others' properties, as I practice my hang gliding with the utmost care to takeoff and land so injury or damages do not occur to others or their properties.) Any and all injuries that I inflict on myself because of my hang gliding are fully and only my responsibility. Occasionally an out landing to an unplanned spot occurs; I will gently exit from the unplanned area while exercising high respect for plants, animals, gating, fencing, etc. When in doubt about something, I will consult with the area's manager and respect the manager's requirements regarding my extraction; I will offer to pay involved extraction costs in a fitting manner." Etc. A lawyer could dance here to help. Witnesses could have titles next to their names or not. Have the document notarized; carry the original when negotiating; have high-quality copies to leave with property owners; give copy of driver's license showing signature; give URL of WHGA and US Hawks. Tell the world that one has given up the ability to hold property owners liable for one's injuries upon temporary use of a property. And state that one is fully willing to cover any damages to people or property that might occur because of one's hang gliding activity.
Then plan flights conservatively and avoid damaging anyone or anyone's property.
Use the waiver to negotiate with some property owners for temporary use of their properties. Have copies of state papers that also echo release of property owners from liabilities when not commercially operating their property for recreational use. Perhaps forget "organized" assemblies of hang gliders while simply flying with high communications with fellow pilots for niche pleasures (hundreds of ways without organized meets). Perhaps get very distributed where there are not "sites" and not "LZs" while evolving into responsible "most anywhere" capability while respecting airspace rules and traffic. Coming eHG takeoffs will be opening millions of launch points. A universal formal waiver (available is the use of the imprint of WHGA, if one wishes such on his or her waiver document.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Hi Tad,

You make a lot of good points, but they get drowned out by your profanity and name calling. For example, you wrote:

Frank Sauber was killed on 1996/04/28 because USHGA *ALLOWED* him to be towed on dangerous equipment and he was towing to reestablish proficiency in a needless and dangerous procedure - foot landing - USHGA was *FORCING* him to demonstrate to qualify for a rating which would allow him the GREATER FREEDOM to fly high sites unsupervised.

This is a good point. In fact, this is a very good point. If someone is proficient in wheel landings, then there should be a provision for getting a rating with a wheel landing restriction (which may imply suitable site restrictions). This is excellent. Thanks for that thought!!

But this stuff ...

... and a total asshole like Diev ...
... his stupid freaking neck ...
... total a**holes like Jim Rooney ...
... Flight Park Mafia scum ...

is just a bunch of juvenile name calling. It undermines your credibility, and causes me (and others) to not even read what you write.

Tad, you've got a lot of pent up anger and frustration from a long history in this sport. It's quite possibly justified. But at some point you have to leave it behind and stop using it as an excuse to behave in an uncivil manner. There's nothing wrong with being critical, but please stick to descriptions of the facts. There's nothing wrong with citing reasons you are not happy with Diev or Jim Rooney or anyone else. But name calling is just as uncool for you to do as it is for anyone else to do. Let's work to lift the level dialog on this forum. Thanks.

So the one "glue" that could hopefully bind us together is a thirst for fairness and due process.

I would hope that competence - and/or a thirst for it - would become the primary glue binding us together - and predict that a lot of fairness and due process would flow from it.

I think that's a very valid point. I agree that competence is a quality that breeds fairness and due process. But I also think that fairness and due process tend to breed competence. Incompetence survives when competent people are punished and incompetent people thrive. So it goes both ways. All of these concepts support one another and are all important to building a better national organization.

Thanks for those comments Tad.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Perhaps soon have an open non-org "Waiver" document. Have it be very formal, neat appearing, bordered as a certificate and room for several witness signatures. A pilot signs; witnesses sign. Presto, one has a Waiver to show property owners.
...
A universal formal waiver (available is the use of the imprint of WHGA, if one wishes such on his or her waiver document.

This is a very powerful concept Joe!! It will surely work at some sites, and it's something we can do right away with no cost. I'm going to start a new "Waivers" topic under "Building the US Hawks" where we can start posting examples of waivers that we've used or seen in use.

Thanks for kicking this off Joe!!!

[TadEareckson]

If someone is proficient in wheel landings...

EVERYBODY is proficient in wheel landings. I ignored what my instructor told me on my first ever flight on a glider and did a perfect wheel landing. Aside from the fact that they're brain dead easy you get more airtime.

Later as a Kitty Hawk Kites instructor my best students ignored MY instructions for standup landings 'cause they also were more interested it getting airtime than stupid standup landings.

And there have been untold hordes of people who've had their flying careers interrupted and ended - sometimes along with their lives - because hang gliding is more interested in standup landings than it is airtime.

...then there should be a provision for getting a rating with a wheel landing restriction...

No. The wheel landing should be the default. No one should be made to feel that his rating is inferior for want of that extremely intermittent "skill" being demonstrated.

A no wind standup landing typically requires the pilot to violate the hell out of the glider's placarded positive pitch limitation. That's aerobatics. Aerobatics are dangerous, especially...

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

...within a couple of feet of the surface.

...(which may imply suitable site restrictions).

So does that mean that Chris Starbuck (paraplegic since mid Seventies standard (swing seat) crash and very active pilot since) should be denied the opportunity to fly Yosemite? 'Cause he might pile in and mess himself almost as bad as Russ Locke did a bit over a month ago?

But let's say that we DO have a Standup Landing Special Skill signoff that IS required for certain sites. If we regularly put people into fields in which their safety is dependent upon consistent well executed standup landings we WILL SEE a LOT of injuries.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AEICgGVJdSs

But this stuff ... is just a bunch of juvenile name calling.

I know, but you get so much more pee-peed off at me whenever I do the adult name calling thing.

It undermines your credibility, and causes me (and others) to not even read what you write.

And maybe has the opposite effect on even more others. Hard to say.

I note the "sexy violent death" thread on The Jack Show videos has scored over five hundred hits in under four days. I'd kill (but not rape) for that kinda readership on Kite Strings.

There's nothing wrong with being critical, but please stick to descriptions of the facts. There's nothing wrong with citing reasons you are not happy with Diev or Jim Rooney or anyone else. But name calling is just as uncool for you to do as it is for anyone else to do.

But it saves so much time and effort - and still conveys the critical information. And I'm having a hard time figuring out how I can cite reasons I'm not happy with Diev and Rooney without getting you all pee-peed off at me about long posts. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I need a drink.

Incompetence survives when competent people are punished and incompetent people thrive.

Funny you should've been talking about punishing competence just then.

http://kitestrings.prophpbb.com/post509.html#p509

Scooped you by fifty-four minutes and two seconds.

All of these concepts support one another and are all important to building a better national organization.

Yep, but I don't believe that we should be too eager at any stage of our organizations' developments to attract a lot of people who have absolutely NOTHING relating to competence, fairness, or respect for due process in their genetic makeups. And I think we need solid mechanisms for excreting the ones that slip through the cracks. I'll keep you posted with my recommendations.

---
Oops. Shoulda been "Darned if you do, darned if you don't." And by drink I obviously meant Kool-Aid. Sorry.

[miguel]

Another vote for civility.

You have much good information but it gets lost in the bile and brimstone.

I know Diev and he is not an asshole. He is a careful pilot.

Most of the releases I have seen have some sort of trick or gotcha to operate them. What Diev does with his release seems to be SOP with that particular release.

I once rode a tow to the ground because I could not get it to release. Promptly quit towing for years afterward.

Your release has no tricks or gotchas? Do up a site, explain it at a 4th grade level and keep it fit for a family Sunday dinner conversation..

[DarthVader]

Frank Sauber was killed on 1996/04/28 because USHGA *ALLOWED* him to be towed on dangerous equipment and he was towing to reestablish proficiency in a needless and dangerous procedure - foot landing

It is always a good Idea to study the landscape where you plan to land before you even think of launching a hang glider

On my landings, I land anyway I can, If it is possible to land standing then I will, if the opportunity is there, if not, there is nothing wrong with a wheel landing. Depening on what I am landing on

LAND HOWEVER YOU CAN

AS LONG AS YOU GET TO THE GROUND SAFE